Is a reconstruction a feasible option?

[Holly Goodhead]

Afaik no one has ever attempted to reconstruct the soc.   There just seems to be a perception that whether JB or SC the parents were shot in the main bedroom but the physical evidence found at soc by way of blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks doesn't support this scenario.

The physical evidence at soc supports the argument June was shot initially whilst her head was on the pillow and NB as he approached the main bedroom from the landing with the perp stood just inside the door.  This in turn supports the argument NB made the call to JB and left the handset on the kitchen worktop when he heard shots ring out from upstairs. 

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[John]

Afaik no one has ever attempted to reconstruct the soc.   There just seems to be a perception that whether JB or SC the parents were shot in the main bedroom but the physical evidence found at soc by way of blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks doesn't support this scenario.

The physical evidence at soc supports the argument June was shot initially whilst her head was on the pillow and NB as he approached the main bedroom from the landing with the perp stood just inside the door.  This in turn supports the argument NB made the call to JB and left the handset on the kitchen worktop when he heard shots ring out from upstairs.

The casings would not have landed where they did had the shooter been firing out of the master bedroom and/or down the stairs.  The original forensic analysis is spot on in relation to this imo.

[Holly Goodhead]

The casings would not have landed where they did had the shooter been firing out of the master bedroom and/or down the stairs.

Which casings do you believe pertain to June's gsw's and which ones to NB?

[steve_trousers]

Afaik no one has ever attempted to reconstruct the soc.   There just seems to be a perception that whether JB or SC the parents were shot in the main bedroom but the physical evidence found at soc by way of blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks doesn't support this scenario.

The physical evidence at soc supports the argument June was shot initially whilst her head was on the pillow and NB as he approached the main bedroom from the landing with the perp stood just inside the door.  This in turn supports the argument NB made the call to JB and left the handset on the kitchen worktop when he heard shots ring out from upstairs.

Holly, even with this detailed reconstruction of the soc which you crave, it cannot conclusively prove the shooters identity one way or the other, it's a blind alley which proves nothing all these years after the event. It's a waste of time as finding something that "supports the argument" will simply be countered by someone else interpreting it another way.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, even with this detailed reconstruction of the soc which you crave, it cannot conclusively prove the shooters identity one way or the other, it's a blind alley which proves nothing all these years after the event. It's a waste of time as finding something that "supports the argument" will simply be countered by someone else interpreting it another way.

I would like to see a reconstruction carried out by relevant experts but I'm not sure I would go as far as saying I crave one!  It is surely something that should have featured at trial with jurors taken to WHF?  The idea June and NB were shot in the bedroom regardless of perp is a preconceived idea without foundation and indicative of how poor the investigation, expert witnesses and defence were.  I agree a reconstruction will not identify the perp per se but it will be possible to identify the location of NB and perp when NB sustained his upstairs gsw's: 2 x face, shoulder and chest/elbow.  I firmly believe this will show the perp was inside the bedroom and NB was shot on the landing stairs and main stairs which in turn supports JB's claim of a tel call from NB. 

The above can only ever be an add-on to more compelling points for a third appeal which will ultimately result in an acquittal.

It will not be possible for anyone to argue convincingly over a reconstruction in terms of perp/victim location as the methods used are routed in established scientific methods and principles. 

[Angelo222]

I would like to see a reconstruction carried out by relevant experts but I'm not sure I would go as far as saying I crave one!  It is surely something that should have featured at trial with jurors taken to WHF?  The idea June and NB were shot in the bedroom regardless of perp is a preconceived idea without foundation and indicative of how poor the investigation, expert witnesses and defence were.  I agree a reconstruction will not identify the perp per se but it will be possible to identify the location of NB and perp when NB sustained his upstairs gsw's: 2 x face, shoulder and chest/elbow.  I firmly believe this will show the perp was inside the bedroom and NB was shot on the landing stairs and main stairs which in turn supports JB's claim of a tel call from NB. 

The above can only ever be an add-on to more compelling points for a third appeal which will ultimately result in an acquittal.

It will not be possible for anyone to argue convincingly over a reconstruction in terms of perp/victim location as the methods used are routed in established scientific methods and principles.

As previously pointed out to you on numerous occasionss, the majority of the shell casings associated with Neville and June were found just INSIDE THE DOOR to the master bedroom. The position of these casings is consistent with the shooter facing into the bedroom and facing the bed.  Why can't you accept this?

[John]

As previously pointed out to you on numerous occasionss, the majority of the shell casings associated with Neville and June were found just INSIDE THE DOOR to the master bedroom. The position of these casings is consistent with the shooter facing into the bedroom and facing the bed.  Why can't you accept this?

I think anyone looking at the official forensics layout of the distribution of bullet casings can see at a glance what occurred.

Nevill was shot 8 times, five of which occurred with the gunman being inside the bedroom.
June was shot 7 times, all of which occurred inside the bedroom.

Casings DRH13 and DRH14 were found beside the bedroom door and at the bottom of the landing steps respectively, indicating a gunman standing outside the bedroom but firing into it.  The lower diag is the most accurate.

[Holly Goodhead]

As previously pointed out to you on numerous occasionss, the majority of the shell casings associated with Neville and June were found just INSIDE THE DOOR to the master bedroom. The position of these casings is consistent with the shooter facing into the bedroom and facing the bed.  Why can't you accept this?

A total of 12 casings were found upstairs associated with June and NB's gsw's.  I am interested in the four that pertain to NB's upstairs gsw's: face x 2, shoulder, elbow/chest.  As previously pointed out 1 casing was found on the landing and one on the transition strip between main bedroom and landing.  The fact two further casings, DRH 3 and 4, were found just inside the main bedroom doesn't preclude the perp shooting on the main stairs.  Casings don't just drop at the perp's feet upon discharge of the firearm.  The Anshutz ejects casings from the port upwards, forward and to the right travelling up to 4 feet away.  I start with the casing and then in my mind's eye pivot the perp around taking into account other factors: blood stains or lack of, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks to arrive at possibilities.  NB was not shot in the bedroom.  If you disagree please provide a scenario taking into account all relevant factors: blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  Casings are only a small part of a reconstruction.  Blood stains, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks are all more important and in this case all support NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs facing into the main bedroom and facing down the main stairs.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think anyone looking at the official forensics layout of the distribution of bullet casings can see at a glance what occurred.

Nevill was shot 8 times, five of which occurred with the gunman being inside the bedroom.
June was shot 7 times, all of which occurred inside the bedroom.

Casings DRH13 and DRH14 were found beside the bedroom door and at the bottom of the landing steps respectively, indicating a gunman standing outside the bedroom but firing into it.  The lower diag is the most accurate.

But as I said to Angleo222 casings are only a small part of a reconstruction.  All known factors/facts have to fit together:

- Blood stains or lack of - none of NB's blood found within main bedroom.
- Casings - as discussed above
- Distance of shots - facial wounds within inches from face.  Shoulder and elbow/chest at least 2' away.
- Trajectories - all downwards and both JB and SC were shorter than NB.  Dr V said shoulder shot fired from above
- Wound tracks - facial wounds went from front to back.  Shoulder and chest/elbow fired at NB's rear. 

When you try and fit the above into the bedroom it simply doesn't work. 

[adam]

The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support the theory the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June, whose head was on the pillow when she was first shot, before NB arrived on the landing stairs where he sustained his facial gsw's.  He turned to retreat downstairs with the perp following.  When on the main staircase NB sustained his shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's.  It is not possible to know exactly what went before.  A possible scenario is that SC locked herself in the downstairs bathroom with the rifle.  NB attempted to reason with her through the door to no avail and decides to call JB to assist in either knocking the door down or one of them entering via the outside window.  NB may have said nothing about calling anyone or may have said he was going to call JB/police/a.n other.  You can see from the layout of WHF how close the tel is to the downstairs bathroom.  SC may have listened at the door and shortly after hearing NB move away she left the bathroom and run upstairs shooting June.  Meanwhile NB manages to get out "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" and hearing gunshots he simply dropped the handset on the kitchen top.  No matter how unlikely anyone thinks this sceanrio is the physical evidence at soc supports something along these lines.  It does not support the perp entering the main bedroom and opening fire on June and NB inside.   

You are relying on a lot of specific things to happen. In a vision.

Sheila locking herself in a bathroom.

Nevill attempting to talk to her through the door.

Nevill deciding to ring Bamber. To break the bathroom door down. Or get Bamber to go through a window into a room where a woman was holding a rifle.

Sheila running upstairs when Nevill goes silent.

Nevill hearing upstairs shots at the exact same time Bamber answers the phone.

Nevill spending 2-4 seconds saying 8/11 words, before putting the phone down & then taking it off the hook.

[Holly Goodhead]

You are relying on a lot of specific things to happen. In a vision.

Sheila locking herself in a bathroom.

Nevill attempting to talk to her through the door.

Nevill deciding to ring Bamber. To break the bathroom door down. Or get Bamber to go through a window into a room where a woman was holding a rifle.

Sheila running upstairs when Nevill goes silent.

Nevill hearing upstairs shots at the exact same time Bamber answers the phone.

Nevill spending 2-4 seconds saying 8/11 words, before putting the phone down & then taking it off the hook.

Like synchronised swimming - timed to perfection

As I said it is not possible to know precisely what went before as there's no physical evidence.  The above is just one of many possibilities for those who believe NB called JB.  What's important is piecing together all the pieces of physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  This shows NB was shot on the landing and main stairs not the bedroom and in turn lends support to JB's claims of a tel call.

Remember JB said there was a pause of a few seconds before NB spoke:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566

Perhaps NB left the handset on the kitchen worktop ringing JB's end knowing it would take him a minute or so to answer.  Meanwhile NB may have moved away from the handset to keep an eye or ear or both on SC hence the few seconds delay in NB talking after JB picked up.  NB may have had one ear/eye on SC and another eye/ear on the handset.

But you and others say had SC been in possession of a gun NB would simply relieve her of it?  So if SC locked herself in the bathroom with the gun why are you now suggesting it would be too high risk for JB or NB to break the door down or enter via the window and relieve SC of the gun?  NB was military trained so might have received training in distraction tactics or the like.  I obviously have no idea what he had in mind and why he required JB's assistance.  Perhaps he just wanted another adult around in case it all went pear shaped.  There's no evidence from Dr Ferguson SC had a poor relationship with JB unlike SC's relationship with June.  June's prescene may well have made SC worse so JB was the natural choice.  He was immediate family, aware of SC's mental health issues and local.

I don't believe NB put the phone down and then took it off the hook.  I believe he said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" and then simply left the handset on the kitchen worktop.  Perhaps he didn't hear shots ring out. Perhaps he just heard SC leave the bathroom and he intended to resume the conversation with JB but in the interim SC run upstairs and shot June.  As I said we will never know exactly what went before because there's no physical evidence to base anything on. 

[John]

But as I said to Angleo222 casings are only a small part of a reconstruction.  All known factors/facts have to fit together:

- Blood stains or lack of - none of NB's blood found within main bedroom.
- Casings - as discussed above
- Distance of shots - facial wounds within inches from face.  Shoulder and elbow/chest at least 2' away.
- Trajectories - all downwards and both JB and SC were shorter than NB.  Dr V said shoulder shot fired from above
- Wound tracks - facial wounds went from front to back.  Shoulder and chest/elbow fired at NB's rear. 

When you try and fit the above into the bedroom it simply doesn't work.

The absence of blood stains pertaining to Nevill is easily explained as he was standing approaching his assailant who retreated backwards out of the bedroom.  We know that blood does not instantly escape from a gunshot wound so if Nevill was standing up while moving forward then the blood would trickle onto his clothes and not onto the floor.

Blood was identified on the wall by the main staircase which was consistent with Nevill staggering downstairs to summon help.  Far from claiming that it simply doesn't work, it works extremely well in my view.

I also think that Jeremy Bamber retreated ahead of Nevill when he unexpectedly ran out of ammo and that it was during this period that Nevill followed him down to the kitchen where the fight and fatal shots occurred.  I also believe that JB went back upstairs and shot June again as she lay injured.

[Holly Goodhead]

The absence of blood stains pertaining to Nevill is easily explained as he was standing approaching his assailant who retreated backwards out of the bedroom.  We know that blood does not instantly escape from a gunshot wound so if Nevill was standing up while moving forward then the blood would trickle onto his clothes and not onto the floor.

Blood was identified on the wall by the main staircase which was consistent with Nevill staggering downstairs to summon help.  Far from claiming that it simply doesn't work, it works extremely well in my view.

I also think that Jeremy Bamber retreated ahead of Nevill when he unexpectedly ran out of ammo and that it was during this period that Nevill followed him down to the kitchen where the fight and fatal shots occurred.  I also believe that JB went back upstairs and shot June again as she lay injured.

Dr V said the gsw's to NB's face injured blood rich locations.  It is likely blood filled NB's mouth almost instantaneously resulting in expirated blood. Yes blood was found on wallpaper in the hall just before the kitchen door and a blood trail was also found on the stairs carpet.  Unfortunately at the time of JB's trial blood stain evidence was in its infancy and wasn't used as it would be today.  I quote from CoA point 516:

Mr Temple contended that whilst the study of and drawing inferences from blood staining patterns may have been available in the 1980s, it was in its relative infancy and with the passage of time since that era, the skills have become more developed so that in consequence greater reliance can be placed on such evidence. He relied in this regard on a statement from Mr Ismail which accepts that there have been references to the interpretation of blood patterns going back to the story of Cain & Abel in the Bible and that the first scientific work was published in 1939 but contends that in the United Kingdom, the first practical courses on the subject were not run until 1988. He concludes:

"In 1985 forensic scientists in this country would have been trained to interpret blood patters at scenes and on objects such as clothing and weapons. However, in my opinion, scientists today are more aware of the potential of blood distribution and practitioners are more confident in its use due (to) greater support and background knowledge."

If NB was standing how do you account for the trajectories to NB's facial gsw's which Dr V described as 10 - 20 degrees below the horizontal?  NB was 6' 4", JB 6'0" and SC 5'7.5". And how do you account for the shoulder gsw which DR V said was fired from above?  If the perp retreated backwards out of the room with NB following at what point did NB sustain the gsw's to his shoulder and chest/elbow which were fired at his rear? 

Yes I believe the perp returned to the bedroom and inflicted the 2 gsw's to June's head.  We know June moved around the bed as per blood stains and the gsw's to her head prevented voluntary movement thereafter. 

[John]

If NB was standing how do you account for the trajectories to NB's facial gsw's which Dr V described as 10 - 20 degrees below the horizontal?  NB was 6' 4", JB 6'0" and SC 5'7.5". And how do you account for the shoulder gsw which DR V said was fired from above?  If the perp retreated backwards out of the room with NB following at what point did NB sustain the gsw's to his shoulder and chest/elbow which were fired at his rear? 

We have been through this previously.  One cannot draw any inferences by reference to where someone was shot since they could have turned, knelt or made any number of manoeuvres to avoid being hit.  Put yourself in Nevill's position for a moment, would you face a bullet head on or turn your back to it?  For all we know maybe he backed out of the room faced with a crazed shooter.

[Angelo222]

We have been through this previously.  One cannot draw any inferences by reference to where someone was shot since they could have turned, knelt or made any number of manoeuvres to avoid being hit.  Put yourself in Nevill's position for a moment, would you face a bullet head on or turn your back to it?  For all we know maybe he backed out of the room faced with a crazed shooter.

Could be Neville knelt down to help his badly wounded wife June and the coward shot him in the back?  That would be consistent with the empty shell casings being found between the bed and the door.