General discussion about the latest news (not search related)

[misty]

Sure.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487506/Revealed-The-nanny-help-clear-McCanns-name.html

If you read yesterday's Mirror article carefully you will see Cat Baker is named, so the anonymous nanny can't be her.

[G-Unit]

More barrel-scraping.

The holidaymaker, who wished to remain anonymous, said she is confident she saw the child in Morocco on May 9, 2007, six days after the three-year-old vanished.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/793796/Madeleine-McCann-latest-news-missing-Morocco-Portugal-sighting

Anonymous? When did she become so shy?

I have just spoken to MARIE OLLI - POLLARD (19/05/62(sic) ) in more detail.
She has spoken with SKY NEWS, ITN NEWS, THE LEICESTER MERCURY & NSY regarding her reported sighting.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Mari_Olli.htm

[Robittybob1]

Sure.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487506/Revealed-The-nanny-help-clear-McCanns-name.html

Interesting that Gerry was looking underneath cars. If he was doing that he can't have thought that Kate was right about her theory that Madeleine was abducted.
https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/35082312/maddy-mccanns-nanny-recounts-that-fateful-night/#page1

[G-Unit]

Interesting that Gerry was looking underneath cars. If he was doing that he can't have thought that Kate was right about her theory that Madeleine was abducted.
https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/35082312/maddy-mccanns-nanny-recounts-that-fateful-night/#page1

Another one who was there;

Mr Woolfall says that he heard no suggestion in the early days that the girl had been snatched. "Certainly I did not hear any discussion that this could be a paedophile or an aggravated robbery. All the time I was around it was whether she could have wandered off and had an accident or somebody had actually taken her in, perhaps not with ill-intent.
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?p=261728&sid=2abe6aab8d68b68af55990eabd1f3fbd

[Brietta]

Another one who was there;

Mr Woolfall says that he heard no suggestion in the early days that the girl had been snatched. "Certainly I did not hear any discussion that this could be a paedophile or an aggravated robbery. All the time I was around it was whether she could have wandered off and had an accident or somebody had actually taken her in, perhaps not with ill-intent.
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?p=261728&sid=2abe6aab8d68b68af55990eabd1f3fbd

Don't these extinct blogs carry interesting information sometimes.  Websleuths have managed to salvage quite a bit from what was happening at the time copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com...7741018&page=6 post # 88 which is no longer on line.

I'm reading through reactions to the occasion when Alípio Ribeiro upset the apple cart by expressing the opinion that Kate and Gerry McCann had been constituted arguidos too hastily ... for example ...

Quote
Alípio Ribeiro - Today, at this distance, with the experience I have as a public prosecutor - although the constitution of defendants in investigations ... the Director of the Judicial Police does not give orders - perhaps another evaluation should have been made. I have no doubt about that.

- Was there some precipitation?

- There was some precipitation. end quote


That certainly caused quite an upset.  But of interest is Goncalo Amaral's role in the affair which we are always informed was not his decision alone but a corporate one.



Maddie case prompts crisis within Justice
Director's statements open new war at the PJ

After having set Gonçalo Amaral aside because of public statements from the officer that was in charge of the Maddie case investigation, the national director is now under fire for having said, also publicly, that there was 'precipitation' from the entity that he directs and from the Public Ministry in constituting the McCanns as arguidos.

Alipio Ribeiro's statements contradict what he defended himself about the Maddie case earlier on (see column with citations) and are classified as 'very serious' by judges and prosecutors, but also by high-ranking officials within the Judiciaria, who did not appreciate the director's stance. CM asked the Ministry of Justice whether Alipio Ribeiro, a longtime friend of [Justice Minister] Alberto Costa, has the necessary conditions to remain in his post, but until this edition closed, there was no reply. The Public Prosecutor's Office has also remained silent.

An exclusive decision for the PJ

The Public Ministry agreed, but the decision to make Kate and Gerry McCann arguidos was taken by Goncalo Amaral, a coordinator at the PJ and the official who was formerly in charge of the case. He took "a decision that was exclusively from the PJ, which has autonomy within the investigation", a senior police officer recalls for CM. And he adds: "The national director speaks of precipitation now, based on his experience as a prosecutor within the Public Ministry - but, by doing this, he is distancing himself from the entity that he directs, in order to position himself alongside the magistrature."

Alipio Ribeiro's statements didn't go well with the PJ's high-ranking officials, having been seen "once again" as coming from "someone who does not defend his police, and who likes to reaffirm his status as a magistrate under these situations - more balanced than policemen when it is time to make decisions".

Another leading PJ official says that this is not the first time that the national director has surprised with his public statements. When he was questioned by journalists over the role that the Public Ministry's special team, lead by prosecutor Helena Fazenda, has in fighting crime in Oporto nightlife, Alipio Ribeiro said it was "to investigate. But he showed a complete lack of knowledge because the processes that concern those crimes were already being investigated by the PJ in Oporto..."
http://www.correiodamanha.pt/noticia...dCanal=9&p=200
Link no longer active

[G-Unit]

Something which was later explained more fully after he was taken to task for speaking out about ongoing cases;

While a source close to the national director of the PJ said to the CM that when he spoke of "hastiness", he was misinterpreted.............. the words of the director were in the sense that, if Kate and Gerry had been maintained witnesses, as they would become under the new penal prosecution code (CPP), "perhaps they should not have left so soon for England. And they would be more cooperative with the Justice".
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?p=44166&sid=06c2af4b601d7e7dd5c0e06bb675f347

[ferryman]

Something which was later explained more fully after he was taken to task for speaking out about ongoing cases;

While a source close to the national director of the PJ said to the CM that when he spoke of "hastiness", he was misinterpreted.............. the words of the director were in the sense that, if Kate and Gerry had been maintained witnesses, as they would become under the new penal prosecution code (CPP), "perhaps they should not have left so soon for England. And they would be more cooperative with the Justice".
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?p=44166&sid=06c2af4b601d7e7dd5c0e06bb675f347

Xclamation!

The last word in 'clarification' of all things McCann ....

[Brietta]

Something which was later explained more fully after he was taken to task for speaking out about ongoing cases;

While a source close to the national director of the PJ said to the CM that when he spoke of "hastiness", he was misinterpreted.............. the words of the director were in the sense that, if Kate and Gerry had been maintained witnesses, as they would become under the new penal prosecution code (CPP), "perhaps they should not have left so soon for England. And they would be more cooperative with the Justice".
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?p=44166&sid=06c2af4b601d7e7dd5c0e06bb675f347

Quite: but it does clarify the situation regarding the changes which occurred to the penal code just days after Kate and Gerry McCann were constituted arguidos in haste.



in Diario de Noticias this morning (11/26):

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/11/26/socieda...ma_tardia.html

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com...386581&page=42 Post #628

"PJ reacted late"

An interview with Carlos Pinto Abreu, one of the McCann couple's lawyers in Portugal

In Portugal, there is the idea that arguido is synonimous with guilty. How can this situation be avoided?

We all have to increase our judiciary culture. And we have to understand that the penal process is a dynamic reality that can be started with an unfounded complaint, a false denunciation, a report about a crime that indicates agressors which are not. And it is necessary to understand that, in the preliminary phase of an investigation, or even of the process, the persons that are made arguidos are not necessarily guilty.

Do you think a precipitated judgement is being made about Kate and Gerry McCann?

No journalist will ever hear me make a comment about the process.

But how do you comment the PGR's [General Attorney] statements that said that "according to the new code, the McCanns would not be arguidos"?

The Attorney General said what he said.
Which means he made a judgement over an absence of clues that cast suspicions on certain persons.
That statement has its own value.
If there are no clues of suspicions about persons, those persons are not made arguidos.
Which means that, taking into account the statements that have been made, people may draw the conclusions they want. I don't [draw conclusions].

The English ambassador said he was satisfied with the PJ's action. Does England approve of our investigation methods?

I am not going to comment on political or diplomatic speeches. But I can say the following. I respect all criminal police forces because of what they represent. And the PJ needs serenity, time and ponderation in their investigations. You will not hear me saying whether a criminal police force acted well or not, except within the processes themselves. Because I think it is with time and ponderation that all judiciary operators work. If they work well, we will have a fair process. If they work poorly, we will have an unfair process.

Portugal is not very used to this type of investigation?

Being used to an investigation is not the issue here.
The issue is more the media exposure of a certain process. And in this case, media exposure has reached international level. And from there on, there was a reaction I would say... late, when compared with what was demanded in a process of this nature. But I must say that, although late, the reaction from the PJ's highest leaders, and now I'm referring to the national director himself, Alipio Ribeiro, was adequate. Because it put all the fiction in its proper place.

Are you referring to the dismissal of Gonçalo Amaral?

No. I'm referring to statements that were made by the Attorney General and by Alipio Ribero, who clearly stated that all investigation lines are on the table. Which means just that. Which means all investigation lines are open. And that's the way it should be.

Are you referring to news that guaranteed that Madeleine is dead?

Yes. But all scenarios are possible. And as all scenarios are possible, the investigation can't hold onto one and dismiss the other. This is very clear to me, and good news, as much as possible. What one wants is, first, to find the child, and second, to find the child alive.

Do you think the PJ hurt the investigation with the information leaks?

The information leaks are the worst service that can be rendered to an investigation. Because it generates the manipulation of evidence by the public opinion, of the witness reports themselves, and that contamination, wherever it comes from, is a terrible service.

Is the McCann couple hurt by public opinion?

What I can say is that the McCanns' sole concern is to find their daughter. Everything else hurts and causes pain, but it's not important.
                                                A página que procura não existe


Seems clear enough ... don't you think?
In the early days the information was available and it was discussed on the various fora which appeared on the internet to address what was happening in Madeleine's case.

It is not the stuff of discussion now. Vilification and neglect of the facts evident at the time have largely taken over.  Leading one to wonder exactly why the propaganda overtook the truth.

[ShiningInLuz]

Quite: but it does clarify the situation regarding the changes which occurred to the penal code just days after Kate and Gerry McCann were constituted arguidos in haste.



in Diario de Noticias this morning (11/26):

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/11/26/socieda...ma_tardia.html

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com...386581&page=42 Post #628

"PJ reacted late"

An interview with Carlos Pinto Abreu, one of the McCann couple's lawyers in Portugal

In Portugal, there is the idea that arguido is synonimous with guilty. How can this situation be avoided?

We all have to increase our judiciary culture. And we have to understand that the penal process is a dynamic reality that can be started with an unfounded complaint, a false denunciation, a report about a crime that indicates agressors which are not. And it is necessary to understand that, in the preliminary phase of an investigation, or even of the process, the persons that are made arguidos are not necessarily guilty.

Do you think a precipitated judgement is being made about Kate and Gerry McCann?

No journalist will ever hear me make a comment about the process.

But how do you comment the PGR's [General Attorney] statements that said that "according to the new code, the McCanns would not be arguidos"?

The Attorney General said what he said.
Which means he made a judgement over an absence of clues that cast suspicions on certain persons.
That statement has its own value.
If there are no clues of suspicions about persons, those persons are not made arguidos.
Which means that, taking into account the statements that have been made, people may draw the conclusions they want. I don't [draw conclusions].

The English ambassador said he was satisfied with the PJ's action. Does England approve of our investigation methods?

I am not going to comment on political or diplomatic speeches. But I can say the following. I respect all criminal police forces because of what they represent. And the PJ needs serenity, time and ponderation in their investigations. You will not hear me saying whether a criminal police force acted well or not, except within the processes themselves. Because I think it is with time and ponderation that all judiciary operators work. If they work well, we will have a fair process. If they work poorly, we will have an unfair process.

Portugal is not very used to this type of investigation?

Being used to an investigation is not the issue here.
The issue is more the media exposure of a certain process. And in this case, media exposure has reached international level. And from there on, there was a reaction I would say... late, when compared with what was demanded in a process of this nature. But I must say that, although late, the reaction from the PJ's highest leaders, and now I'm referring to the national director himself, Alipio Ribeiro, was adequate. Because it put all the fiction in its proper place.

Are you referring to the dismissal of Gonçalo Amaral?

No. I'm referring to statements that were made by the Attorney General and by Alipio Ribero, who clearly stated that all investigation lines are on the table. Which means just that. Which means all investigation lines are open. And that's the way it should be.

Are you referring to news that guaranteed that Madeleine is dead?

Yes. But all scenarios are possible. And as all scenarios are possible, the investigation can't hold onto one and dismiss the other. This is very clear to me, and good news, as much as possible. What one wants is, first, to find the child, and second, to find the child alive.

Do you think the PJ hurt the investigation with the information leaks?

The information leaks are the worst service that can be rendered to an investigation. Because it generates the manipulation of evidence by the public opinion, of the witness reports themselves, and that contamination, wherever it comes from, is a terrible service.

Is the McCann couple hurt by public opinion?

What I can say is that the McCanns' sole concern is to find their daughter. Everything else hurts and causes pain, but it's not important.
                                                A página que procura não existe


Seems clear enough ... don't you think?
In the early days the information was available and it was discussed on the various fora which appeared on the internet to address what was happening in Madeleine's case.

It is not the stuff of discussion now. Vilification and neglect of the facts evident at the time have largely taken over.  Leading one to wonder exactly why the propaganda overtook the truth.

I'm not sure what your point is.

The McCanns decided they would leave Portugal.  As it so happened, they chose a date that preceded a change in Portuguese law.

The McCanns informed Bob Small of this.  Bob Small informed the PJ of this.

The PJ decided to re-interview the McCanns prior to their departure.  Under Portuguese law relevant to that time, they were obliged to make the McCanns arguidos.

I seem to have lost the point of your post.  Would you be so kind as to clarify for me?

[Brietta]

I'm not sure what your point is.

The McCanns decided they would leave Portugal.  As it so happened, they chose a date that preceded a change in Portuguese law.

The McCanns informed Bob Small of this.  Bob Small informed the PJ of this.

The PJ decided to re-interview the McCanns prior to their departure.  Under Portuguese law relevant to that time, they were obliged to make the McCanns arguidos.

I seem to have lost the point of your post.  Would you be so kind as to clarify for me?

I think what you have posted here is an opinion piece.  You have some of the timetable right but you need to back up the outcomes with cites of the thought processes of the PJ ... as is clear from what I have posted ... there was no obligation on the PJ to constitute Kate and Gerry McCann arguidos.

[Robittybob1]

Quite: but it does clarify the situation regarding the changes which occurred to the penal code just days after Kate and Gerry McCann were constituted arguidos in haste.



in Diario de Noticias this morning (11/26):

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/11/26/socieda...ma_tardia.html

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com...386581&page=42 Post #628

"PJ reacted late"

An interview with Carlos Pinto Abreu, one of the McCann couple's lawyers in Portugal

In Portugal, there is the idea that arguido is synonimous with guilty. How can this situation be avoided?

We all have to increase our judiciary culture. And we have to understand that the penal process is a dynamic reality that can be started with an unfounded complaint, a false denunciation, a report about a crime that indicates agressors which are not. And it is necessary to understand that, in the preliminary phase of an investigation, or even of the process, the persons that are made arguidos are not necessarily guilty.

Do you think a precipitated judgement is being made about Kate and Gerry McCann?

No journalist will ever hear me make a comment about the process.

But how do you comment the PGR's [General Attorney] statements that said that "according to the new code, the McCanns would not be arguidos"?

The Attorney General said what he said.
Which means he made a judgement over an absence of clues that cast suspicions on certain persons.
That statement has its own value.
If there are no clues of suspicions about persons, those persons are not made arguidos.
Which means that, taking into account the statements that have been made, people may draw the conclusions they want. I don't [draw conclusions].

The English ambassador said he was satisfied with the PJ's action. Does England approve of our investigation methods?

I am not going to comment on political or diplomatic speeches. But I can say the following. I respect all criminal police forces because of what they represent. And the PJ needs serenity, time and ponderation in their investigations. You will not hear me saying whether a criminal police force acted well or not, except within the processes themselves. Because I think it is with time and ponderation that all judiciary operators work. If they work well, we will have a fair process. If they work poorly, we will have an unfair process.

Portugal is not very used to this type of investigation?

Being used to an investigation is not the issue here.
The issue is more the media exposure of a certain process. And in this case, media exposure has reached international level. And from there on, there was a reaction I would say... late, when compared with what was demanded in a process of this nature. But I must say that, although late, the reaction from the PJ's highest leaders, and now I'm referring to the national director himself, Alipio Ribeiro, was adequate. Because it put all the fiction in its proper place.

Are you referring to the dismissal of Gonçalo Amaral?

No. I'm referring to statements that were made by the Attorney General and by Alipio Ribero, who clearly stated that all investigation lines are on the table. Which means just that. Which means all investigation lines are open. And that's the way it should be.

Are you referring to news that guaranteed that Madeleine is dead?

Yes. But all scenarios are possible. And as all scenarios are possible, the investigation can't hold onto one and dismiss the other. This is very clear to me, and good news, as much as possible. What one wants is, first, to find the child, and second, to find the child alive.

Do you think the PJ hurt the investigation with the information leaks?

The information leaks are the worst service that can be rendered to an investigation. Because it generates the manipulation of evidence by the public opinion, of the witness reports themselves, and that contamination, wherever it comes from, is a terrible service.

Is the McCann couple hurt by public opinion?

What I can say is that the McCanns' sole concern is to find their daughter. Everything else hurts and causes pain, but it's not important.
                                                A página que procura não existe


Seems clear enough ... don't you think?
In the early days the information was available and it was discussed on the various fora which appeared on the internet to address what was happening in Madeleine's case.

It is not the stuff of discussion now. Vilification and neglect of the facts evident at the time have largely taken over.  Leading one to wonder exactly why the propaganda overtook the truth.

Interesting timeline of events.

[ShiningInLuz]

I think what you have posted here is an opinion piece.  You have some of the timetable right but you need to back up the outcomes with cites of the thought processes of the PJ ... as is clear from what I have posted ... there was no obligation on the PJ to constitute Kate and Gerry McCann arguidos.

Brietta, as I am sure you are well aware, I am under no obligation whatsoever to post cites re anyone's thought processes.  How could anyone ever do that?

The law as it stood required that the McCanns were made arguidos.  And I am confident that you are aware of it.

I would thank you for clarifying, but as you have not, I am unable to do so.

For the second time of asking, what was the point you were making?

[John]

Did Madeleine McCann wander off and have an accident? Was she stolen to order? Or was it a burglary gone wrong? Detective lays out theories about her disappearance.



By Katie French
PUBLISHED: 22 April 2017

A former Scotland Yard detective believes he has come up with the five most plausible theories to explain the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Murder detective Colin Sutton said a trafficking gang could have snatched her to replace a dead child or she could have been snatched by a paedophile. But he theorised the 'most likely and credible scenario' for Maddie's disappearance was a targeted kidnap.

Speaking to The Mirror, he questioned why traffickers didn't take one of Maddie's twin baby siblings instead – who would have no memory of their previous life and less physical identity. As the 10th anniversary of Maddie's disappearance approaches next month, the investigator has analysed multiple theories for a new book. Madeleine was just three went missing from Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, almost a decade ago. He said those closest to Maddie, including her parents, would have been the first line of inquiry for police. But he added he believed Portuguese police appeared make this their only line of investigation early on in the probe.

He said: 'By concentrating just on that scenario they may have missed tips or other lines that meant going down a completely different investigation route.'

He said: 'A trafficking ring is more likely than a lone paedophile or paedophile ring.'But unless the order was specifically for a young blonde girl, why her and not one of the twins?

'Has a young blonde girl died and their parents want to replace her? Or is there another reason for stealing to order?'

While cops initially believed Maddie could have wandered off and been killed, Sutton believes the tot would surely have taken her beloved toy 'Cuddle Cat' if she had walked out of the apartment.

He said: 'Incidents of children wandering off are much more common than a targeted or non-targeted abduction.
'However Cuddle Cat is a compelling fly in the ointment with this theory.'

He said it was highly unlikely that an opportunist had snatched her, saying that most predatory paedophiles are 'not interested in pre-school age children'.

He said: 'The chances of a predatory paedophile just happening across Madeleine and being able to abduct her without being detected are just so remote.

'I don't know of any other opportunistic abduction of a girl so young.'
And he also believes it is extremely unlikely that she was killed as part of a burglary gone wrong, as most burglars are drug addicts looking for something small they can easily sell.

He said: 'Junkies don't take three-year-old girls.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4435038/Did-Madeleine-McCann-wander-accident.html#ixzz4ezFjPZug

[ShiningInLuz]

Did Madeleine McCann wander off and have an accident? Was she stolen to order? Or was it a burglary gone wrong? Detective lays out theories about her disappearance.



By Katie French
PUBLISHED: 22 April 2017

A former Scotland Yard detective believes he has come up with the five most plausible theories to explain the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Murder detective Colin Sutton said a trafficking gang could have snatched her to replace a dead child or she could have been snatched by a paedophile. But he theorised the 'most likely and credible scenario' for Maddie's disappearance was a targeted kidnap.

Speaking to The Mirror, he questioned why traffickers didn't take one of Maddie's twin baby siblings instead – who would have no memory of their previous life and less physical identity. As the 10th anniversary of Maddie's disappearance approaches next month, the investigator has analysed multiple theories for a new book. Madeleine was just three went missing from Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, almost a decade ago. He said those closest to Maddie, including her parents, would have been the first line of inquiry for police. But he added he believed Portuguese police appeared make this their only line of investigation early on in the probe.

He said: 'By concentrating just on that scenario they may have missed tips or other lines that meant going down a completely different investigation route.'

He said: 'A trafficking ring is more likely than a lone paedophile or paedophile ring.'But unless the order was specifically for a young blonde girl, why her and not one of the twins?

'Has a young blonde girl died and their parents want to replace her? Or is there another reason for stealing to order?'

While cops initially believed Maddie could have wandered off and been killed, Sutton believes the tot would surely have taken her beloved toy 'Cuddle Cat' if she had walked out of the apartment.

He said: 'Incidents of children wandering off are much more common than a targeted or non-targeted abduction.
'However Cuddle Cat is a compelling fly in the ointment with this theory.'

He said it was highly unlikely that an opportunist had snatched her, saying that most predatory paedophiles are 'not interested in pre-school age children'.

He said: 'The chances of a predatory paedophile just happening across Madeleine and being able to abduct her without being detected are just so remote.

'I don't know of any other opportunistic abduction of a girl so young.'
And he also believes it is extremely unlikely that she was killed as part of a burglary gone wrong, as most burglars are drug addicts looking for something small they can easily sell.

He said: 'Junkies don't take three-year-old girls.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4435038/Did-Madeleine-McCann-wander-accident.html#ixzz4ezFjPZug

I have just been researching Mr Sutton because he appears in tomorrow's Australian special.  He appears to be balanced and capable, with a good track record, and 9 years as an SIO with the Met.

I am somewhat surprised that The Mirror has given perhaps its most balanced consideration I have ever seen, but I dare say it had to happen some time.

ETA I spoke too soon.  I see it is the Mail using information lifted from the Mirror.

[John]

I have just been researching Mr Sutton because he appears in tomorrow's Australian special.  He appears to be balanced and capable, with a good track record, and 9 years as an SIO with the Met.

I am somewhat surprised that The Mirror has given perhaps its most balanced consideration I have ever seen, but I dare say it had to happen some time.

It's good to see that the wandered off and met with some sort of accident theory is very much alive and well.