"Most logical allocation of bullets order"...

[Holly Goodhead]

The above has recently been discussed on the Blue forum.

My view is that the perp entered the main bedroom and June sustained a total of 6 GSW's.  5 bullets entered, 3 exited and 1 caused a bruise only. 

NB then arrived on the landing stairs and sustained 2 GSW's to his face.  He turned to retreat downstairs and when on the main stairs sustained a GSW to his shoulder and a graze GSW to his elbow/chest.

The above is based on a mag of 10. 

NB then sustained a further 4 GSW's to his head in the kitchen.

The perp returned upstairs and shot the twins.  DC sustained 5 GSW's and NC 3 GSW's.  The pathologist said DC's GSW's were fired in an arc suggesting they were fired in quick succession.  As we know thankfully it appears the twins were unaware and shot whilst asleep.  This suggests they were both shot in quick succession.

June then sustained a further 2 GSW's.

[Holly Goodhead]

The above is based on a total of 26 bullets fired:

June - 8
NB - 8
DC - 5
NC - 3
SC - 2

The case of David Bain also involves 4 murders/1 suicide or 5 murders depending on your point of view.  The rifle used was the same calibre as that used at WHF .22.  However the number of bullets was considerably less:

Margaret Bain - 1 GSW
Arawa Bain - 1 GSW
Stephen Bain - 2 GSW's
Laniet Bain - 3 GSW's
Robin Bain - 1 GSW

A total of 8 GSW's.  Also unlike the victims at WHF the victims did not move from the room they sustained the initial GSW in. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The above is based on a total of 26 bullets fired:

June - 8
NB - 8
DC - 5
NC - 3
SC - 2

The case of David Bain also involves 4 murders/1 suicide or 5 murders depending on your point of view.  The rifle used was the same calibre as that used at WHF .22.  However the number of bullets was considerably less:

Margaret Bain - 1 GSW
Arawa Bain - 1 GSW
Stephen Bain - 2 GSW's
Laniet Bain - 3 GSW's
Robin Bain - 1 GSW

A total of 8 GSW's.  Also unlike the victims at WHF the victims did not move from the room they sustained the initial GSW in.

The Bain shootings (65 Every St (ES)) were far more efficient than WHF and yet the perp potentially had more obstacles to overcome:

- Victims ES were sleeping on 2 levels: LB ground floor; MB, AB and SB first floor.  WHF all victims first floor

- Youngest victim ES was SB 14 yoa.  Youngest victims at WHF were twins 6 yoa.

Those that believe JB responsible argue:

- JB underestimated the power of the rifle and yet we can see at ES a single head shot is sufficient. 

- Some argue had SC just been waving the rifle about NB would simply relieve her of it as even if it was discharged it was unlikely to kill or even seriously injure.  Based on 65 ES this doesn't appear to be the case.

- JB deliberately went for overkill and misplaced shots to make the SoC look manic and amateurish.  Well this is a possibility I guess but he would need to keep control of the situation and it seems to me allowing NB to flee from upstairs to downstairs was inherently risky especially when June was able to move around the bedroom when she could just as easily called out to SC or even walked across the landing to SC's room!  JB was a considered a marksman at Greshams. He had been around and familiar with firearms his whole life.  If he was responsible I think the SoC would look very different.  NB would not have moved from upstairs to downstairs and June would not have moved from one side of the bedroom to the other.

[Holly Goodhead]

I will try and find other similar soc's to see how they compare.  The only case that springs to mind is the DeFao family.
Does anyone know of others?

[Holly Goodhead]

The DeFao murders:

- Murder weapon .35 Marlin rifle. 

- The victims: Ronald J. DeFeo, 43, his wife, Louise, 42, two sons, John, 9, and Mark, 12, and two daughters, Allison, 13, and Dawn 18.

- All shot in bed: three of the victims were shot in the back, two in the head and one in the neck.

- The bedrooms were over 3 floors.

- No evidence of any struggles.

- *No silencer used.

* I'm beginning to think the sound of firearm discharge might well be altered when fired within a confined space. 

[adam]

The DeFao murders:

- Murder weapon .35 Marlin rifle. 

- The victims: Ronald J. DeFeo, 43, his wife, Louise, 42, two sons, John, 9, and Mark, 12, and two daughters, Allison, 13, and Dawn 18.

- All shot in bed: three of the victims were shot in the back, two in the head and one in the neck.

- The bedrooms were over 3 floors.

- No evidence of any struggles.

- *No silencer used.

* I'm beginning to think the sound of firearm discharge might well be altered when fired within a confined space.

Was that an inheritance killing ?

[Holly Goodhead]

Was that an inheritance killing ?

Apparently shortly after the murders the perp, Ronald DeFeo Jnr., asked about his parents life assurance policies.  His defence lawyer mounted an affirmative defence of insanity.  The prosecution lawyer said although he was an abuser of heroin and LCD he had anti-social personality disorder and was aware of what he was doing. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The DeFao murders:

- Murder weapon .35 Marlin rifle. 

- The victims: Ronald J. DeFeo, 43, his wife, Louise, 42, two sons, John, 9, and Mark, 12, and two daughters, Allison, 13, and Dawn 18.

- All shot in bed: three of the victims were shot in the back, two in the head and one in the neck.

- The bedrooms were over 3 floors.

- No evidence of any struggles.

- *No silencer used.

* I'm beginning to think the sound of firearm discharge might well be altered when fired within a confined space.

Apparently the parents were shot twice and the siblings once.  All were found on their stomachs.  Pathological evidence showed the mother and one of the daughters were actually awake.  The neighbours heard nothing other than the dog barking.

It does make me wonder if discharging a firearm in a confined space alters the sound of muzzle blast either due to the confined space of floor, ceiling and walls and/or the ambient temp of a room. 

The soc's at ES and Amytville were very different to WHF:

- Victims sustained far fewer gsw's:

WHF = 26/5 victims
ES = 8/5 victims
Amytville 8/6 victims

- Shots were accurate designed to kill

- WHF - for those who believe JB guilty all victims moved significantly: SC was found in the main bedroom, NB in the kitchen and although June was found in her own bedroom she moved significantly after the initial GSW's walking round the bed and back. 

- ES - all shot in bedrooms

- Amytville - all shot in beds

I wonder whose idea it was to take WHF jurors to Fringringoe gun range to hear rifle with and without silencer which to my mind sounds like a useless test given the range is outside.  Perhaps further evidence of an incompetent MF. 

[scipio_usmc]

The DeFao murders:

- Murder weapon .35 Marlin rifle. 

- The victims: Ronald J. DeFeo, 43, his wife, Louise, 42, two sons, John, 9, and Mark, 12, and two daughters, Allison, 13, and Dawn 18.

- All shot in bed: three of the victims were shot in the back, two in the head and one in the neck.

- The bedrooms were over 3 floors.

- No evidence of any struggles.

- *No silencer used.

* I'm beginning to think the sound of firearm discharge might well be altered when fired within a confined space.

The mother and father woke up after the first shots were fired but it was too late for them to get out of bed they were injured too severely.

The youngest daughter has her eyes open because GSR got in her eyes so he walked in and stuck the gun to her face (her bed was not far from the door) and fired.   

The oldest daughter woke up and actually got up according to DeFeo's confession. He said he told her to go back to bed and then reloaded (the gun holds only 7 shots all of which were expended on the other victims) He said he waited a bit for her to go back to bed and then shot her.    There is nothing to suggest the brothers woke up at all. That he did it at night as they were sleeping played a big role in no one escaping or at least trying to. That prevented them from recognizing what was happening until it was too late if they did at all figure it out.

It isn't a fluke that many pick that hour to kill people. 
 

[scipio_usmc]

I. Starts with 10 shots fired in the Master Bedroom:

Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom and June shot 6 and then the gun was empty.  The gun being empty without Nevill being disabled is the only reason the struggle in the kitchen took place. This is the view that was advanced at trial and to this day is the only scenario that accounts for the struggle in the kitchen, location of the spent cases and bullets as well as trajectory of the wounds.


Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
PV/10 (lip)
PV/11 (neck)
Graze wound  DRH/5 

June
PV/23 (right upper chest)
PV/24 (lower chest)
PV/26 (above right ear)
DRH/35A and 35B (Lower neck and Forearm)
DRH/9 (knee)

II. Proceeds to kitchen

Jeremy beats Nevill unconscious reloads the gun and fires 4 shots into his head killing him:

PV/8 (front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body)
PV/9 (slightly above wound 1)
PV/3 (top of skull)
PV/4 (top of skull)


III. Proceeds back upstairs

After killing Nevill Jeremy reloads fully rather than going upstairs with a partially empty weapon.  Because 1 round was already in the chamber when he fully reloads the magazine there are now 11 rounds in the weapon.

Most likely he killed the boys first that way they would not be able to escape and also because he feared if he killed sheila before them police might figure out she died before them. 

Twins shot in their room

Daniel

There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room.  There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds.  The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:

PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow

Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of these fragments were removed during the autopsy so remained in the victim at burial.


IV. Next likely the final shot to June to make sure she was really dead:

Master Bedroom June shot- PV/25 (between eyes)

V. Last forcing Sheila into the master bedroom and shooting her 2 times.

lower wound (neck) PV/20
upper wound (chin) PV/19

[Holly Goodhead]

I. Starts with 10 shots fired in the Master Bedroom:

Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom and June shot 6 and then the gun was empty.  The gun being empty without Nevill being disabled is the only reason the struggle in the kitchen took place. This is the view that was advanced at trial and to this day is the only scenario that accounts for the struggle in the kitchen, location of the spent cases and bullets as well as trajectory of the wounds.


Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
PV/10 (lip)
PV/11 (neck)
Graze wound  DRH/5 

June
PV/23 (right upper chest)
PV/24 (lower chest)
PV/26 (above right ear)
DRH/35A and 35B (Lower neck and Forearm)
DRH/9 (knee)

II. Proceeds to kitchen

Jeremy beats Nevill unconscious reloads the gun and fires 4 shots into his head killing him:

PV/8 (front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body)
PV/9 (slightly above wound 1)
PV/3 (top of skull)
PV/4 (top of skull)


III. Proceeds back upstairs

After killing Nevill Jeremy reloads fully rather than going upstairs with a partially empty weapon.  Because 1 round was already in the chamber when he fully reloads the magazine there are now 11 rounds in the weapon.

Most likely he killed the boys first that way they would not be able to escape and also because he feared if he killed sheila before them police might figure out she died before them. 

Twins shot in their room

Daniel

There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room.  There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds.  The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:

PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow

Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of these fragments were removed during the autopsy so remained in the victim at burial.


IV. Next likely the final shot to June to make sure she was really dead:

Master Bedroom June shot- PV/25 (between eyes)

V. Last forcing Sheila into the master bedroom and shooting her 2 times.

lower wound (neck) PV/20
upper wound (chin) PV/19

Why would JB start off with 10 cartridges when he could have an additional cartridge in the breach? 

We've been over this numerous times.  It's clear from trial testimony the expert evidence was woeful and why would it be anything other than woeful?  Little Britain isn't the US.  You guys experience mass shootings very regularly.  In LB we havn't experienced any mass shootings during peacetime that weren't witnessed by numerous others. 

Why the huge disparity in ratio of GSW's per victims between DeFoes, Bains and Bambers? 

[scipio_usmc]

>Why would JB start off with 10 cartridges when he could have an additional cartridge in the breach? 

Either because he didn't think he needed to do so or because he didn't think of it.  I originally thought he did have 11 firing all 7 into June and 4 into Nevill in the same episode. However, after learning that June had walked around the bed that makes it less likely this occurred. 

The most likely scenario of June walking around the bed is that she did so after Nevill and Jeremy left the room.  If she had been shot between the eyes when the other shots were delivered she never would have made it around the bed.  Moreover that means she had to go through Jeremy to get there.

The less likely scenario is that after 10 shots were fired and while 1 bullet remained Jeremy and Neville were struggling near Nevill's side of the bed or near the foot of the bed and she decided to join in fighting Jeremy or passed by them to try to reach the phone and after she saw it was missing and returned to the other side of the room Jeremy was able to aim the gun and shoot her between the eyes then fled to go get more ammo and Nevill pursued him to the kitchen and confronted him before he was able to reload.

I find it harder to believe she got by the men 2 times as they struggled as opposed to her having walked around the bed after they left the room and that he shot her again to make sure she was dead later when he returned upstairs. The first shot to her head was not instantly fatal but would have been fatal in short order so that explains why she was able to walk around the bed but not make it out of the room. The shot between her eyes can't have been delivered before she walked around the room because she would have fallen wherever she was standing when it was delivered.

Furthermore firing 11 in the first episode would require him to have loaded only 4 bullets in the kitchen and fired all 4 into Nevill then to reload  the magazine fully. If he had loaded more than 4 then upon reloading the magazine he would have went upstairs with 10 in the magazine and one in the chamber and there still would have been a round in the chamber when it was found.  It is certainly possible he loaded only 4 because he was scared he would wake up if he took the time to load all 10 but overall I find it much more likely that June's final shot was delivered later.

 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

>Why would JB start off with 10 cartridges when he could have an additional cartridge in the breach? 

Either because he didn't think he needed to do so or because he didn't think of it.  I originally thought he did have 11 firing all 7 into June and 4 into Nevill in the same episode. However, after learning that June had walked around the bed that makes it less likely this occurred. 

The most likely scenario of June walking around the bed is that she did so after Nevill and Jeremy left the room.  If she had been shot between the eyes when the other shots were delivered she never would have made it around the bed.  Moreover that means she had to go through Jeremy to get there.

The less likely scenario is that after 10 shots were fired and while 1 bullet remained Jeremy and Neville were struggling near Nevill's side of the bed or near the foot of the bed and she decided to join in fighting Jeremy or passed by them to try to reach the phone and after she saw it was missing and returned to the other side of the room Jeremy was able to aim the gun and shoot her between the eyes then fled to go get more ammo and Nevill pursued him to the kitchen and confronted him before he was able to reload.

I find it harder to believe she got by the men 2 times as they struggled as opposed to her having walked around the bed after they left the room and that he shot her again to make sure she was dead later when he returned upstairs. The first shot to her head was not instantly fatal but would have been fatal in short order so that explains why she was able to walk around the bed but not make it out of the room. The shot between her eyes can't have been delivered before she walked around the room because she would have fallen wherever she was standing when it was delivered.

Furthermore firing 11 in the first episode would require him to have loaded only 4 bullets in the kitchen and fired all 4 into Nevill then to reload  the magazine fully. If he had loaded more than 4 then upon reloading the magazine he would have went upstairs with 10 in the magazine and one in the chamber and there still would have been a round in the chamber when it was found.  It is certainly possible he loaded only 4 because he was scared he would wake up if he took the time to load all 10 but overall I find it much more likely that June's final shot was delivered later.

I sought pathological opinion on June's head gsw's and was told either one would render June incapable of voluntary movement upon delivery meaning they must have been delivered after June walked round the bed. 

All regular posters and guests know my theory of how events unfolded, including yourself, and I don't think it's necessary to keep repeating myself!  But just in case anyone has forgotten...

- NB and SC downstairs
- NB calls JB from kitchen phone
- SC goes upstairs and shoots June x 6 whilst June is getting in/out of bed.
- NB arrives on landing stairs and sustains the facial shots x 2.
- NB turns and retreats downstairs.  On the main staircase he sustains the gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest

The above accounts for a load of 10.  As we know NB sustained 4 further gsw's in the kitchen and June a further 2 to her head but I wouldn't want to speculate about order/loads in this regard.  Nor do I think it's necessary.  As far as I'm concerned the most important aspect of this is placing NB on the landing and main stairs supported by:

- Blood stains and lack of
- casings
- distance of shots
- trajectories
- wound tracks 

[Holly Goodhead]

Dr Vanezis said in his opinion NB's head gsw's were delivered in 2 pairs so probably sustained in quick succession.  He also said the gsw's DC sustained appeared to have been fired in an arc perhaps suggesting they were fired in quick succession.  Given the twins appear to have slept through I'm thinking they sustained all gsw's in quick succession. 

As far as I can see apart from the above there's nothing else to base anything on about order of bullets, loads etc so pointless speculating.