'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'

[John]

In the other thread it was quoted as the McCanns thought the same couple may have come back the next night (Thursday night), or something like that.

I had the same thought.  For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.

[sadie]

I had the same thought.  For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.

Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night. 
Citation please.

[Robittybob1]

I had the same thought.  For all we know they took pity on the child hearing her crying every night and decided to act.

That is the basis of my theory, the need to do something.  I don't think they went as far as planning to kidnap her.

[pathfinder73]

Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night. 
Citation please.

Mrs Fenn was the witness. The McCanns wouldn't know who was crying if they weren't there 

"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

Tuesday Quiz Night

"A bit of banter, the quiz night, erm, so we all joined in that and lost. Erm, I don't know, generally we all sort of got back, yeah, we were usually the last there, just I think because we were eating later."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[John]

Come on John; we dont know whose child was crying on the Tuesday night. 
Citation please.

Oh but we do, it was the McCanns.  We have looked at this issue on another thread in detail so I suggest you do a bit of catching up.

Tuesday evening 1st May.  Mrs Fenn at home and disturbed by a crying child in the apartment immediately below her. So distraught she considered phoning the GNR.  Crying stopped when patio door opened on parents return.

Wednesday evening 2nd May.  Mrs Fenn went out to visit her friend in order to avoid a repetition of the previous evenings crying.

Thursday evening 3rd May.  Mrs Fenn at home when she hears a commotion outside and when she looks over her balcony to enquire what is going on is told in some choice language that a young girl has gone missing.

[Benice]

Reposted:
Even Amaral in his book does not name Mrs Fenn as the person who heard a child crying - and that's because she didn't name any child in her statement.

When she said she didn't want to upset the parents, that does not necessarily mean she was sure it was Madeleine -  as it  could just as easily mean she didn't want to upset the parents in case it wasn't Madeleine whom she heard.

Very similar to Jane Tanner  - who although she told the police what she had seen,  didn't want to tell Kate at that stage  - in case it wasn't Madeleine who she'd seen  being carried away.

IOW neither of them wanted to add to the fear and anxiety already being experienced by Kate and Gerry at that time - in case they were wrong.
End

Does anyone know if there is anything in the files to indicate the McCanns and/or their friends opinions/comments on Mrs. Fenn's claims re Tuesday night?    Were they asked about them?   I can't remember reading anything - but obviously that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

AIMHO

[Miss Taken Identity]

I find this discussion quite perplexing. Why would Kate mention it and pass it of as a matter of fact, a nothing really to worry about thing.  We don't get a beginning, or end... I mean how exactly did that conversation go? I am left feeling the parents really didn't care about their children to leave them again after Maddie obviously upset by the episode that she talks about it, seems to go over their heads.

[Robittybob1]

I think we need to look very closely at the Fenn statements
Is there two to consider http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm and  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

[Robittybob1]

The real drama of the night is partially revealed in Pamela's statement.  In Pamela Fenn's statement there is another hint about the GNR Police being temporarily standing down. "She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search". Why did Gerry not want the apartment searched, and why did he just say out of the blue to Pamela Fenn that it was a little girl that was abducted. "Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios."

[misty]

The real drama of the night is partially revealed in Pamela's statement.  In Pamela Fenn's statement there is another hint about the GNR Police being temporarily standing down. "She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search". Why did Gerry not want the apartment searched, and why did he just say out of the blue to Pamela Fenn that it was a little girl that was abducted. "Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
*snipped*
During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.

===============================
We know that the GNR officers did not arrive at 5A until well after 2300hrs. Is it reasonable to assume that Mrs Fenn hung around on her balcony for best part of an hour & witnessed Gerry asking for more officers to be deployed in the searches?

[Robittybob1]

What I find real confusing is reading Carole TRANMER  statement.  You get the feeling none of it is true, she doesn't know the name of her aunt's apartment or where it is.  If it wasn't that Pamela says she was visited by Carole I was thinking we have the wrong person here.
But she talks of making  a photo-fit of someone leaving the McCann's gate.  Does anyone know which sketch was attributed to her?

[Robittybob1]

CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, humm'a person of common appearance, it was his furtiveness that called my attention, humm, no, I can't'

DC1485'Could you give him an age'

CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that he was older than this.

DC1485'And his aspect'

CT'It was clear, he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light colour, not white, white but you know'humm..he was not one who was exposed to the sun.

DC1485'And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'

CT'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, hum' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his walk.

DC1485'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'

CT'No, I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.

DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'

CT'No, it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.

DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'

CT'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.

DC1485'Yes, and was it loose-fitting'

CT'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.

DC1485'Did it fit him loosely'

CT'It was big but not by much.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'It was simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.

DC1485'Yes, yes.

CT'With inscriptions or anything in general, mmm.

DC'And he was well-shaven'

CT'Yes, yes. "  from Carole Tranmer statement.

Blond man with a lot of hair.  Was there an e-fit like this?  I haven't followed it all the way through but it sort of sounded a bit like Russell O'Brien to me.  Could Russell have popped into the McCann residence to see if Gerry was home? 

[misty]

Do you think CT could have actually seen the gate to 5a from PF's balcony?

[John]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
*snipped*
During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.

===============================
We know that the GNR officers did not arrive at 5A until well after 2300hrs. Is it reasonable to assume that Mrs Fenn hung around on her balcony for best part of an hour & witnessed Gerry asking for more officers to be deployed in the searches?

Actually, the first two GNR officers arrived at main reception at 11pm where Gerry and the resort manager were waiting for them.

[John]

Do you think CT could have actually seen the gate to 5a from PF's balcony?

Without any trouble.  The Fenn balcony looked straight down onto the steps leading up to 5a.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0886395,-8.7306178,39a,35y,290.16h,22.14t/data=!3m1!1e3