'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'

[G-Unit]

Janet knew the kids back in Rothley where they had separate rooms I presume (for Kate still talks about Madeleine's bedroom.  Gerry mentions that the twins may have woken Madeleine.

"---- When asked about the time he went to check the children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, he states remembering that he did it, according to his watch, around 21:04. He remembers that once inside the apartment he thought strange only the fact of the door to the children's room being slightly more open than how the defendant had left it when he and Kate left for dinner. However, he puts the hypothesis of [proposes; suggests] it having been Madeleine opening that door after having woken and having got up, possibly to go to her parents' room. On this occasion the three children were lying in their beds and asleep, he is sure of that. "

also "--- The third check was made by Kate at around 22:00. He does not know how long it was before Kate returned, but he does remember that shortly before she returned he was thinking of going to see what was going on, as it seemed a long time and he thought that one of children might have woken up."

 Kate: "With the exception of what has been described above, during the holidays, she does not remember if any of the children was awake during the night. However, in England Madeleine sometimes woke up during the night, around 2 ' 2:30 AM and went to her parents. During holidays it was normal for the children to be awake by 7:30/8:00, in England, at home, they would normally wake between 7 and 7:30 AM."

Gerry McCann 10th May "----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings."

So at the time Gerry thought it likely.

It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.

Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;

If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]

Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.

[jassi]

It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.

Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;

If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]

Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.

Interesting, that. Perhaps keen to get back to his socialising, though he then wastes time talking to Jez, when he doesn't need to.

[Benice]

It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.

Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;

If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]

Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.

With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.     

 IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.     

His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO.     It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.

All in my opinion.

[G-Unit]

With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.     

 IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.     

His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO.     It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.

All in my opinion.

You quote 'innocent reasons' for the door moving from 'ajar' to 'half-way open'. Gerry gave one reason, which seemed unlikely because a) It was not usual for Madeleine to wake until the early hours and b) he found no evidence that she had. What other 'innocent reasons' did he give?

[faithlilly]

With respect G once again hindsight is being brought into play here imo.     

 IMO Gerry had no reason to be unduly alarmed about the slightly different position of the door at that time - as there were innocent reasons.     

His children were all safe and fast asleep - and, without the benefit of hindsight, there was no reason for him to suddenly become highly suspicious or to realise that the position of the door was something he should be concerned about in the way you seem to be suggesting IMO.     It was not until he too had the benefit of hindsight that he realised the different position of the door could have been for sinister reasons.

All in my opinion.

What were those 'innocent reasons' Benice ?

[Wonderfulspam]

It seems strange to me that he thought of that explanation because Madeleine, according to her parents, practically never woke before the small hours.

Both parents seemed to agree that it was OK to leave the children and go out because of the unlikelihood of them waking;

If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning [madeleine]

Gerry never did work out why the door had moved. It's unlikely that it was Madeleine; she was sleeping just as he'd left her. Having established that it wasn't her, he seems to have decided to ignore the problem. He never takes it a step further as in 'if it wasn't Madeleine who moved the door who did?'. He moved on and left the apartment. Extraordinary in my opinion.

Indeed, during Madeleine Was Here, Gerry says that at no point other than that night did he stick his head in, as the door was like that (ie wide open) for him & he knew (how) he'd left it.

So significant was that wide open door, (which, when opened again later gave Matt an unimpeded view) that he stuck his head in for the first time that week.

He saw Maddie sleeping, where he had left her, so he knew it wasn't her that opened the door.

But as you say, he did nothing but pull the door too again,

https://youtu.be/na4aBr5PTYY?t=290

[Benice]

What were those 'innocent reasons' Benice ?

It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.

If he had decided to think more about it then -  putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door.    The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but  imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen 

As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.

All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.

 

[Robittybob1]

My opinion is based on the evidence. Kate described the crying as improbable, unlikely and implausible. That's because she didn't think they'd cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed. Then Madeleine disappeared and she reported it to the PJ and the FLO's. She must have changed her mind, mustn't she if she's now reporting it as if it happened? She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?

In my opinion children can cry a little and nod back off in the space of 30 minutes, but if they were woken because there was an intruder in the bedroom going back to sleep really would be improbable, unlikely and implausible.

G-unit Can you give a cite for this statement "She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?"

[faithlilly]

It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.

If he had decided to think more about it then -  putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door.    The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but  imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen 

As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.

All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.

Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?

Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?

[Robittybob1]

Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?

Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?

It is always possible Madeleine in particular was getting up and moving about.  That can't be eliminated from the equation IMO.

[barrier]

So significant was that wide open door, (which, when opened again later gave Matt an unimpeded view) that he stuck his head in for the first time that week.

Only it didn't allow Matt to see Madeleine.

[Benice]

Three people Kate, Gerry and Oldfield all mention the door being open wider than they expected it to be. Don't you think that if it really wasn't anything to 'puzzle over' that's rather strange ?

Further as we know now from OG the disappearance probably didn't happen before 9.45 so how did the door become ' open wider' on Gerry's check and Gerry having closed it over then opens again wide enough for Oldfield to see the twins in their cots at 9.30 ?

No I don't think it is strange.   IMO Kate's first thought would be that Matt had left it in that position and Matt would think the door position was how Kate and Gerry had left it -  because no-one had any reason to think an intruder could have been involved at that time.    It was only with hindsight -  after Madeleine disappeared that the position of the door, not only as Kate had found it, but also how Gerry and Matt had found it -  became an issue.
AIMHO

[G-Unit]

G-unit Can you give a cite for this statement "She now seems prepared to accept that they did cry and go back to sleep on their own?"

It's a logical conclusion, not a quote.

Kate said Madeleine's story was unlikely, implausible and improbable.

Why?

Because she didn't think the children would cry and then go back to sleep without being soothed.

She and Gerry then report Madeleine's story to the police the following day, and to the FLO's the day after that.

Why?

Because they decided there may be a 'sinister reason' for the occurrence. As Kate says;

it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children’s bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them. [madeleine]

It's clear to me that she is saying that she, with hindsight, now believes Madeleine's story.

If she believes it now, then she must have decided it's no longer unlikely, implausible and improbable.

The original reason for her doubts, of course, remains unaltered. The children did go back to sleep without being soothed. Kate now appears to have demolished her original reason for doubting the story.

[G-Unit]

It seems to me that as everything was fine at the time and he had no reason to be alarmed, he didn't dwell too long or think deeply about the the position of the door.

If he had decided to think more about it then -  putting myself in his shoes, I would have wondered whether Kate may have been the last one to close the door, or that I might have been mistaken about the position of the door I'd left it in, or that maybe a draught moved the door a little, when I'd opened the patio door.    The one thing I wouldn't consider was whether an intruder had moved it.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but  imo those are all viable innocent reasons that would have been likely to go through the mind of any normal person, who had no inkling of the terrible events that were going to happen 

As it happens I don't think he did get as far as puzzling more deeply over the door position, because he was satisfied that everything was fine with the children, and so he had no need to.

All in my opinion, no-one is obliged to agree with me.

I agree that it's possible to think of innocent reasons why the door wasn't as he thought he left it. As Gerry doesn't mention any of those reasons, however, we can't assume that he thought of them.

I had a similar experience once. Checking my children on my way to bed I was puzzled and alarmed by the loft hatch, which was in their room, being half open. It wasn't like that when I put them to bed. I was eight and a half months pregnant and my husband was away. I slept in their room that night, directly under the hatch so that on the remote chance that anyone came through it, I would be there.

[slartibartfast]

I agree that it's possible to think of innocent reasons why the door wasn't as he thought he left it. As Gerry doesn't mention any of those reasons, however, we can't assume that he thought of them.

I had a similar experience once. Checking my children on my way to bed I was puzzled and alarmed by the loft hatch, which was in their room, being half open. It wasn't like that when I put them to bed. I was eight and a half months pregnant and my husband was away. I slept in their room that night, directly under the hatch so that on the remote chance that anyone came through it, I would be there.

It’s the concept of it being strange that a door in an apartment in which there was a ambulatory nearly 4yo that baffles me.