Abduction

[pathfinder73]

madeleine is missing....the chances of the parents being involved is so small it approaches zero....w and w is highly unlikely according to those who ahve more information than you....or me......that leaves abduction. An expert,,,who visited the site said an abductor could have been in and out in 1 minute...SY beleive its possible....thats the state of play..

and im not a dental technician

[Mr Gray]

and what do you think that proves....absolutely nothing

[Miss Taken Identity]

Exactly

why is everyone so anxious to disallow the use of a key on the front door?

That front door in its recess was absolutely private.  No one passed it.  No-one could see it, because it was so deeply recessed and so damned dark there that i wonder that even the apartment tenants liked to go in via that entrance after dark.

So easy to obtain a key from various staff members, take a copy and cast ones own key .... and what about the set of keys that allegedly were 'lost' by one member of maintenance staff?


It is almost as though there is a trend to take the eye of any interested party off the Very obvious point of entry (imo)  .... and the very obvious way out too.

Open with a key, leave the key in the lock and upon departing pull the doot to, usingt the key as a puller.

Hey ho, NO fingerprints, quick and a near silent job.   In and out in a flash, and Tannerman coming from the right direction


The front door was used IMO

AIMO

So you believe that then you would agree with the many experts and the PJ/Amaral that the shutter/window story was made up by the parents?

Which leads us to the question why would they do that? If their daughter was abducted would it matter to them at that moment how she was taken? Hmmm Im thinking not. because  they did not act or behave in a way which would tie in with a child being abducted by a stranger. As an example not mentioning abduction to the police- or searching for a missing child under beds etc.

[Alice Purjorick]

120 posts on.
The planned snatch remains out to pasture in the Foinavon Paddock.
The abductor entering the building without leaving a trace was by magic. Had the girl been older I would have had Zeus in the frame on that basis.

The problem seems insoluble;maybe the problem has not been properly defined ?
Time to sweep the decks clear see what drops out and start again ?................................ look there it was all the time. The primary event was misidentified.
It should be "Girl vanishes from bedroom into thin air". Now analyse cause and effect rather than use the usual storytelling technique. Determine the known causal relationships to include the actions and conditions of each effect then provide evidence to support the existence of each cause.

It'll be an eye opener for the linear thinkers if nothing else.
Catch you later.

[Robittybob1]

So what modification was made to this lock then? I presume you have checked against the comics that such a modification as in your mind could be effected?

I will purchase an Italian style rim lock latch and see what modifications can be done.  In my comprehension I need it so with the use of the key or the lever both the latch bolt and the latch bolt lock move at the same time.
But if the latch bolt is depressed manually the latch bolt lock remains extended.  (In the unmodified version, if the latch bolt is depressed manually the latch bolt lock is also depressed.)

[Carana]

I don't think anyone would describe me as a linear thinker, but anyway. Just to set the ball rolling in the spirit of Alice's thread... And this is just off the top of my head before this thread degenerates....

Burglary gone wrong.
Nicks and duplicates key (possibly several while he's at it). Could be former employee, or knows / recognises someone who is e.g., maintenance or cleaning staff. Staff could keep keys with them over lunchtime in a jacket that gets hanged on a coat rack over lunch - nicks and duplicates some and puts them back in jacket.

Could have an accomplice. He or they case the village and work out the general routine of various tourists. They park near 5A, notice it's all quiet, but occupants are likely to have gone out for dinner (too early for bedtime). One enters via key, heads towards bedroom or living room, but M wakes up and is about to scream the place down. He puts his hand over her mouth to stop her, but accidentally smothers her. The choice is to run out and leave or to grab her (sentence is far heavier in the event of injury or death).

In a moment of panic, he opens the window and lifts the blind, either to signal to an accomplice, or possibly more likely because someone could work out that he'd got a key and decides to make it look as if he'd broken in via the window. Grabs her and leaves in the car.

The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again. Unless it could have slammed, or if there was a reason to avoid anyone guessing that he'd had a kesy. (I say he, but it could have been a woman or more than one person).

If he'd picked the lock (i.e., without a key), I can't think of a logical reason to open the window / shutter.

In the event of a Smellyman high on drugs or suffering from some kind of dangerous psychiatric illnness (sporadic or not), , I find it hard to imagine what any thought processes may have been. Could someone in some kind of "altered" state of mind be lucid enough to lift up the shutter from the outside and get in that way? If so, I would have thought that there would have been more traces in the window area. Lucid enough to pick a lock? Wander in via the terrace side? But then close the gates? And wander out via the front door and think to close it?

I tried to find articles about the sexual assaults, and the one that seems to give the most details (accurate or not) is from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

[sadie]

So you believe that then you would agree with the many experts and the PJ/Amaral that the shutter/window story was made up by the parents?

Which leads us to the question why would they do that? If their daughter was abducted would it matter to them at that moment how she was taken? Hmmm Im thinking not. because  they did not act or behave in a way which would tie in with a child being abducted by a stranger. As an example not mentioning abduction to the police- or searching for a missing child under beds etc.

Of course it would. 

They are intelligent people and would know that the finding of the "How" would lead to the finding of the "Who did it"
..... and that would lead to Madeleine

[Robittybob1]

.....
The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again. .....

If I'm right about having to use the key to close the front door closing it becomes really a two hand operation.  This might still be possible with a child in your arms.
What did you mean by "The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again."?

[Carana]

If I'm right about having to use the key to close the front door closing it becomes really a two hand operation.  This might still be possible with a child in your arms.
What did you mean by "The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again."?

I think that's why we got back into the key discussion. Without knowing one way or the other whether it could slam shut on its own or not...

[sadie]

If I'm right about having to use the key to close the front door closing it becomes really a two hand operation.  This might still be possible with a child in your arms.
What did you mean by "The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again."?

If there were two people as in sadies theory then presumably the lifter would have passed Madeleine over to Tannerman and she/he would then have two hands available to pull the door closed ... or

Imediately the lifter exited by the front door, Tannerman closed the door ... and then Madeleine was passed over to him.  The lifter, who likely Madeleine knew, was maybe an employee of OC ... and her job done, she/he beetled off as  fast as possible back to the Staff quarters, on Rua D'Escola.

AIMO

[Carana]

If there were two people as in sadies theory then presumably the lifter would have passed Madeleine over to Tannerman and she/he would then have two hands available to pull the door closed ... or

Imediately the lifter exited by the front door, Tannerman closed the door ... and then Madeleine was passed over to him.  The lifter, who likely Madeleine knew, was maybe an employee of OC ... and her job done, she/he beetled off as  fast as possible back to the Staff quarters, on Rua D'Escola.

AIMO

A possibility, Sadie, but I was trying to think of simpler scenarios.

[pathfinder73]

If there were two people as in sadies theory then presumably the lifter would have passed Madeleine over to Tannerman and she/he would then have two hands available to pull the door closed ... or

Imediately the lifter exited by the front door, Tannerman closed the door ... and then Madeleine was passed over to him.  The lifter, who likely Madeleine knew, was maybe an employee of OC ... and her job done, she/he beetled off as  fast as possible back to the Staff quarters, on Rua D'Escola.

AIMO

Tannerman is history. Smithman isn't 

[Robittybob1]

I think that's why we got back into the key discussion. Without knowing one way or the other whether it could slam shut on its own or not...

I am also thinking someone knowing the door won't slam shut could use a piece of firm plastic to depress the latch bolt and the latch bolt lock as the door is being shut but that too would be a two handed operation.

[Brietta]

I don't think anyone would describe me as a linear thinker, but anyway. Just to set the ball rolling in the spirit of Alice's thread... And this is just off the top of my head before this thread degenerates....

Burglary gone wrong.
Nicks and duplicates key (possibly several while he's at it). Could be former employee, or knows / recognises someone who is e.g., maintenance or cleaning staff. Staff could keep keys with them over lunchtime in a jacket that gets hanged on a coat rack over lunch - nicks and duplicates some and puts them back in jacket.

Could have an accomplice. He or they case the village and work out the general routine of various tourists. They park near 5A, notice it's all quiet, but occupants are likely to have gone out for dinner (too early for bedtime). One enters via key, heads towards bedroom or living room, but M wakes up and is about to scream the place down. He puts his hand over her mouth to stop her, but accidentally smothers her. The choice is to run out and leave or to grab her (sentence is far heavier in the event of injury or death).

In a moment of panic, he opens the window and lifts the blind, either to signal to an accomplice, or possibly more likely because someone could work out that he'd got a key and decides to make it look as if he'd broken in via the window. Grabs her and leaves in the car.

The only thing I find odd is that the front door would have been shut again. Unless it could have slammed, or if there was a reason to avoid anyone guessing that he'd had a kesy. (I say he, but it could have been a woman or more than one person).

If he'd picked the lock (i.e., without a key), I can't think of a logical reason to open the window / shutter.

In the event of a Smellyman high on drugs or suffering from some kind of dangerous psychiatric illnness (sporadic or not), , I find it hard to imagine what any thought processes may have been. Could someone in some kind of "altered" state of mind be lucid enough to lift up the shutter from the outside and get in that way? If so, I would have thought that there would have been more traces in the window area. Lucid enough to pick a lock? Wander in via the terrace side? But then close the gates? And wander out via the front door and think to close it?

I tried to find articles about the sexual assaults, and the one that seems to give the most details (accurate or not) is from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

The link you provided to the Guardian article very definitely gives food for thought and highlights in my opinion the undue haste with which the police sought to clear the decks of the crime by latching on to one suspect then another two none of whom had any evidence against them to justify the police action.
As was proved when their arguido status was lifted ... but months of investigation wasted by the deflection from what had happened to Madeleine as opposed to whodunit.

All against a backdrop of a peak in burglaries in the resort in the April of 2007 and the intruder described by police as having "a very, very, unhealthy interest" in young white girls.

If burglary was rife in my opinion it was merely a matter of time until a tragedy of one sort or another occurred.
Similarly if an intruder was in the habit of gaining entry to premises attracted by the presence of young girls ... in my opinion bad and bad enough as his actions were, he was just a ticking time bomb.

Yet there is still denial about burglaries in the resort and denial of intrusion into homes and assault of little girls.

Indeed there is a "badly told story here" including ignoring the situation as it was on the ground in Luz 2007 but making it totally risible to rule out the possibility of the abduction of a child.

[Carana]

@Brietta
If I've understood correctly, Alice's thread is to work out the nuts and bolts of the how in various scenarios.

I actually tried this ages ago in trying to make Amaral's theory work. It was so popular that I think it disappeared down the plughole into total oblivion. lol

Even if anyone can work out a plausible how, there's still a problem with finding supportinng physical evidence. There was a partial forensic analysis, but it wasn't thorough. I'm not citicising the forensic people who came out and did their best with whatever they had to hand, and the emergency was to sweep the likely exits as fast as possible.

A few things went a bit haywire, a print sent to Interpol turned out (AFAIK) to be that of one of the GNR officers; hairs from the bed went AWOL; I can't find any trace of a hair-searching mission into the parents' bedroom...

On the other hand, a more thorough sweep could also have been done in the following days before the place got relet, if someone had thought to request it. That doesn't appear to have happened.