When was the door shut? David Payne. Rules out wandering off.

[Robittybob1]

Is this, second hand non verbatim  twice translated that you are now relying on?

Good point and I have just confirmed that the rogatory interviews don't seem to have been translated back and forth as there are no photographs of the Portuguese language version in the released file.

So the answer is no it is not a "second hand non verbatim  twice translated" file that we are now relying on.

[G-Unit]

Both gates were found closed on Kate's visit.

The McCanns have told us this during an Irish TV interview, that I've referenced ad nauseam.

https://youtu.be/WLvnfcl-Zkg?t=1370

I prefer to think that her memory would be more accurate a few days after the event than four years later.

[Wonderfulspam]

I prefer to think that her memory would be more accurate a few days after the event than four years later.

I prefer to believe everything & anything that Kate said, whilst I'm on 15% warning.

[G-Unit]

By way of Kate telling him so, I believe.

"I said well look how do you know that is the case"

To which Kate must have replied.

And she was telling the truth, to suggest otherwise would be libel.....or would it?

According to Matthew the child gate may have been open. If so, he is likely to have left it as he found it in my opinion;

The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

[Robittybob1]

By way of Kate telling him so, I believe.

"I said well look how do you know that is the case"

To which Kate must have replied.

And she was telling the truth, to suggest otherwise would be libel.....or would it?

Thanks for that help.  From David's rogatory David is fair questioning Kate as they are approaching the apartment.  Something that hadn't really sunk in till now. 

"then Kate came back just after ten o' clock, you know absolutely distraught err you know just, you know her face I'll never forget. It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate,
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There's the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she'd either been taken or she'd wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted." End quote.


But he seemed to also come to a narrow conclusion  although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted.  as he hadn't considered that someone else could have noticed Madeleine missing before Kate did and closed the doors for the safety of the twins.

He "knew she'd been abducted but still searched in the immediate area.  Now that is a bit contradictory.  Why wasn't he organising road blocks or the like?  Why didn't he suggest to ring the PJ immediately?  Why didn't he stop anyone touching the shutters and the windows?

[misty]

Good point and I have just confirmed that the rogatory interviews don't seem to have been translated back and forth as there are no photographs of the Portuguese language version in the released file.

So the answer is no it is not a "second hand non verbatim  twice translated" file that we are now relying on.

Did you miss this little addition to the rogatory statements shown online?

"TRANSCRIPT BY DUARTE LEVY"


Where is the signed & witnessed copy of the transcript?

[Wonderfulspam]

Thanks for that help.  From David's rogatory David is fair questioning Kate as they are approaching the apartment.  Something that hadn't really sunk in till now. 

"then Kate came back just after ten o' clock, you know absolutely distraught err you know just, you know her face I'll never forget. It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate,
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There's the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she'd either been taken or she'd wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted." End quote.


But he seemed to also come to a narrow conclusion  although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted.  as he hadn't considered that someone else could have noticed Madeleine missing before Kate did and closed the doors for the safety of the twins.

He "knew she'd been abducted but still searched in the immediate area.  Now that is a bit contradictory.  Why wasn't he organising road blocks or the like?  Why didn't he suggest to ring the PJ immediately?  Why didn't he stop anyone touching the shutters and the windows?

Indeed, he knew, but didn't suggest or insist on calling the police, and as I pointed out previously, neither did Kate or Gerry, despite their certainty.
It took Fiona to send Matt to reception, whilst they searched as if looking for a child who wandered off.
The not calling the police immediately scenario has always struck me as suspicious.

[Robittybob1]

Kate told Dave that both gates were shut?

2200: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Who writes up this timeline?  Is it entirely based on what the witnesses have stated in their statements?

I am totally surprised by this few lines about what Matthew Oldfield must have said to the PJ:
Quote:  "2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.

Does Matthew say that in any of his statements?  Find it.

[misty]

Indeed, he knew, but didn't suggest or insist on calling the police, and as I pointed out previously, neither did Kate or Gerry, despite their certainty.
It took Fiona to send Matt to reception, whilst they searched as if looking for a child who wandered off.
The not calling the police immediately scenario has always struck me as suspicious.

Why suspicious? Does every parent who loses their child in a shopping centre immediately call 999 because the situation is another James Bulger?

[Wonderfulspam]

Why suspicious? Does every parent who loses their child in a shopping centre immediately call 999 because the situation is another James Bulger?

....because that's how I perceive it.

I don't see any similarity with the Bulger case.

They were in a shopping centre, the child wandered off or was led away, Ms Fergus had no reason to immediatley suspect an abduction, only that James had wandered off.

Whereas, Kate knew Maddie didn't open the window & shutters herself, hence she had no doubt, neither did Gerry or David, apparently.

[Robittybob1]

Why suspicious? Does every parent who loses their child in a shopping centre immediately call 999 because the situation is another James Bulger?

Misty I think the point we are making is that DP is claiming he knew it was an abduction even while he was walking toward the apartment.  If you are convinced your actions should confirm that IMO. 
"Every parent who loses their child in a shopping centre" should "immediately call 999" if they know the child has been abducted"

[misty]

....because that's how I perceive it.

I don't see any similarity with the Bulger case.

They were in a shopping centre, the child wandered off or was led away, Ms Fergus had no reason to suspect abduction, only that James had wandered off.

Whereas, Kate knew Maddie didn't open the window & shutters herself, hence she had no doubt, neither did Gerry or David, apparently.

Wouldn't you have found it more suspicious if they had not immediately searched, called the police & sat around waiting for the GNR to arrive?

[misty]

Misty I think the point we are making is that DP is claiming he knew it was an abduction even while he was walking toward the apartment.  If you are convinced your actions should confirm that IMO. 
"Every parent who loses their child in a shopping centre" should "immediately call 999" if they know the child has been abducted"

DP believed what Kate was telling him. He was not in a position to know what may have occurred until he had survey the scene himself. A panic-stricken person can overlook the obvious, especially when that person hadn't been out into the front car park or checked with Jane in 5D.

[Wonderfulspam]

Wouldn't you have found it more suspicious if they had not immediately searched, called the police & sat around waiting for the GNR to arrive?

No, I wouldn't.

If one of the three who were sure, had seen to it personally that the police were informed immediately, I would have found that less suspicious. I would have regarded that as entirely in keeping with their immediate certainty that an abduction had occurred, so I would.

[Robittybob1]

Wouldn't you have found it more suspicious if they had not immediately searched, called the police & sat around waiting for the GNR to arrive?

Honestly - NO. 
Provided the OC still activated their missing child procedure.  Why because the likes of Pathfinder (if I understand his theory correctly) seem to suggest the McCanns used the pretence of searching as a method to remove the body away from the crime scene.
I don't quite understand when GA thought the McCanns removed the body away from the crime scene.  But I have a feeling it was much later in the morning e.g between 5 - 7 AM.  Did he ever say?

I know Gerry posed the question "When did we remove the body?"  A damn good question IMO.