Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking? Ideas solutions

[sadie]

So you agree it is in the joint time line statement.  I gave the exact wording from that document and there was no translation of it required. 
I'll copy iy again "2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed. "

That is clear as mud, they were outside the gate.  i.e not in the in the stairwell area but on the public area.
"The two were standing just up the hill from the gate" - uphill means they were North of the actual gate.

I have posted Gerry's descriptions to I believe but I'll do it again just to be sure.

No I do not agree.  It is not verbatim

Thanks to Faith:  Door-porta, gate- portão. 

These are too similar to ignore IMO.  A simple mistake could be made


There is too much evidence that Gerry and Jes met on the corner of the alleyway.  Janes Cutting Edge Reconstruction, Jezes statement + his diagram showing the alleyway corner  ... and Amarals video where he shows the corner of that alleyway too


Suddenly new stuff is appearing that I do not remember seeing before ... and I have gone over all this with a fine toothcomb

Suddenly the Official Channel 4 cutting Edge Video is not available, just the phoney, copy one by DonnyDarko is available   



I wonder where all the authentic stuff is vanishing to ?   And why is it going ?

Jane made it very very clear where they were standing when she passed them and that was at the alleyway corner

[sadie]

No I do not agree.  It is not verbatim

Thanks to Faith:  Door-porta, gate- portão. 

These are too similar to ignore IMO.  A simple mistake could be made


There is too much evidence that Gerry and Jes met on the corner of the alleyway.  Janes Cutting Edge Reconstruction, Jezes statement + his diagram showing the alleyway corner  ... and Amarals video where he shows the corner of that alleyway too


Suddenly new stuff is appearing that I do not remember seeing before ... and I have gone over all this with a fine toothcomb

Suddenly the Official Channel 4 cutting Edge Video is not available, just the phoney, copy one by DonnyDarko is available   

I wonder where all the authentic stuff is vanishing to ?   And why is it going ?

Jane made it very very clear where they were standing when she passed them and that was at the alleyway corner

I am having to use the phoney DonnyDarko Youtube cos the other official one has been wiped.  Donny darko is very obviiously NOT for the Mccanns as you will see from the comments.  No comments were tolerated on the official Youtube.

Start playing at about 9.30. and you will see where Gerry remembered it

At about 10.06 you will see Jane very firmly point out where Gerry and Jez chatted by the alleyway entrance.  This matches Amarals video and also matches Jezes drawing and his main description

Surely I haven't got to go thru all that again, where he describes coming out by the little car park where the media parked their cars.  That identifies exactly where Jez started from

Has the mention of coming out from that littkle car park (opposite the Tapas reception) gone missing too, Rob, cos' i didn't notice it earlier when I was reading your posts on here



This phoney video has cut out the bit where Jane very deliberately walked down to that spot from near the gate
I am misremembering:  It was Gerry who walked down to the spot from near the gate.  My apologies.

[Robittybob1]

The video sounds like a true copy - don't worry about the comments.  I had quoted that Jez said they were standing close enough to the top road that he world be able to recognise someone he knew.  If they were as far away as in this video there is no way that could be true.
Jez' rogatory "Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.

[Robittybob1]

Unfortunately your opinion differs from Rebelo who thought the point was so important that he requested that the McCanns and their friends fly back to take part in a reconstruction of course the incident. Do you really think he would have done that if where the conversation took place 'didn't really matter' ?

Was a reconstruction ever going to solve this?  I don't see how, unless one person is favoured and all the rest have to accept they were wrong.  But I do think Jez would be tested to maintain his position that he never saw anyone pass. How was Rebelo going to sort that one out if Jez was to be believed and the walk by Jane has to be done at a later time.  Most people here believe Jez over Gerry on position (which side of the road) but he doesn't see Jane pass by which must mean that she didn't see them but she says if I hadn't seen them I wouldn't be able to say I saw them together talking on the street.
It is one of the hardest things to explain especially if we are not allowed to say someone is lying.  The silly thing is they were going to do a re-enactment.  What scenario were they going to re-enact?  Would they be made to re-enact scenes that they can't remember?
I had thought that Jez and Gerry were playing a trick on Jane by just pretending to ignore her, and they took that game right to their statements. The lady who studied false memories, Elizabeth Loftus, did mention that acting is a way of inducing false memories.  If they both acted as if they didn't see Jane could they both remember their acting and not the actual event?

[Robittybob1]

Fortunately we don't need logic or speculation as we have Wilkins own words  and that was that he was 5m from the alleyway.

But he didn't hear or see Jane.  So what does that mean?

[G-Unit]

No I do not agree.  It is not verbatim

Thanks to Faith:  Door-porta, gate- portão. 

These are too similar to ignore IMO.  A simple mistake could be made


There is too much evidence that Gerry and Jes met on the corner of the alleyway.  Janes Cutting Edge Reconstruction, Jezes statement + his diagram showing the alleyway corner  ... and Amarals video where he shows the corner of that alleyway too


Suddenly new stuff is appearing that I do not remember seeing before ... and I have gone over all this with a fine toothcomb

Suddenly the Official Channel 4 cutting Edge Video is not available, just the phoney one by DonnyDarko is available   

I wonder where all the authentic stuff is vanishing to ?   And why is it going ?

Jane made it very veerty clear where they were standing when she passed them and that was at the alleyway corner

Read the link Sadie. There is not the slightest possibility of translation errors.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Jane, when her memory was freshest, makes it absolutely clear where the men were talking. Gerry saw her account and let it stand. Why she changed her story later we don't know. What we do know is that Gerry told a different story to the PJ on the very same day that the group account was handed to them.

After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child. He crossed the road in JEZ's direction who would come up on the right-hand side [when viewed] from the ascending direction,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

[kizzy]

As all was well with the children - my first thought would be that unnoticed by me  - Kate must have made the last check and that's how she had left the door.   

Matt had only checked by listening outside.  Gerry not only preferred to check from inside 5A - he also knew he could use his own loo while he was there.    Most people prefer their own loos to public WC's imo.   IMO a   combination of both reasons was enough for him to decide to go himself - in spite of Matt's check.   
AIMHO

Why would he think, unnoticed by him k mccan had done a check.

Didn't they know what each other was doing, iyo then he went back every time he needed the loo,during that week.

[Brietta]

So are you implying Matt lied?  Matt several times tells us he did not go into the apartments at his 9:00 PM listening check.

You appear to have introduced some unknown checker here "In my opinion Gerry being aware that the children had already been checked, the movement of the door would have been put down to that person looking into the room and mean nothing more than that."  Who was that?

They had the mystery of Madeleine saying why didn't you come last night ....etc.  Surely they should have clicking onto the idea that there were others concerned for the welfare of their children.

Madeleine's question only became a 'mystery' after she was gone.

[Robittybob1]

Why would he think, unnoticed by him k mccan had done a check.

Didn't they know what each other was doing, iyo then he went back every time he needed the loo,during that week.

Just who was the last person to check the kids when Kate and Gerry left? This was around 8:30 PM.

[faithlilly]

Madeleine's question only became a 'mystery' after she was gone.

But who was the individual who had checked before Gerry and opened the door 'a little wider' ?

[faithlilly]

As all was well with the children - my first thought would be that unnoticed by me  - Kate must have made the last check and that's how she had left the door.   

Matt had only checked by listening outside.  Gerry not only preferred to check from inside 5A - he also knew he could use his own loo while he was there.    Most people prefer their own loos to public WC's imo.   IMO a   combination of both reasons was enough for him to decide to go himself - in spite of Matt's check.   
AIMHO

Then why did he only intend to listen at the door ? Surely Matt had done just as thorough check by listening at the window ?

[Robittybob1]

But who was the individual who had checked before Gerry and opened the door 'a little wider' ?

I think Kate would have looked for other clues.  If Madeleine had moved it did she move anything else to confirm it?

Then why did he only intend to listen at the door ? Surely Matt had done just as thorough check by listening at the window ?

There seems to be a hidden reason that we are not party to.  Why was Matt's check not enough.  Why was it so important to see that Madeleine in particular was OK?  Why did the moved door not set off intruder alarm bells?

Was there some reason he walks uphill when he meets up with Jez even though he was supposedly heading in the other direction?

[kizzy]

So are you implying Matt lied?  Matt several times tells us he did not go into the apartments at his 9:00 PM listening check.

You appear to have introduced some unknown checker here "In my opinion Gerry being aware that the children had already been checked, the movement of the door would have been put down to that person looking into the room and mean nothing more than that."  Who was that?

They had the mystery of Madeleine saying why didn't you come last night ....etc.  Surely they should have clicking onto the idea that there were others concerned for the welfare of their children.

that there were others concerned for the welfare of their children.

Why should he think that, they wasn't bothered about their welfare, that is obvious imo.

I didn't know he had noticed the door moved, why didn't he mention it to kmccann. after all he had checked to make sure everything was ok - it wasn't

So if the abductor was in the room [if] - was he there when matt made his check.

If not then, the window should have been open, shutters up etc etc.

So door moved again, when kmccann goes, convenient gust of wind, window open.

Yet she still runs out, leaving twins, why didn't she scream for help - after all like some say it was like being in a garden.

Then they still put twins in creche next day, regardless of their welfare, the only reason i can think of for that, is they knew they were safe.

All my post imo

[faithlilly]

that there were others concerned for the welfare of their children.

Why should he think that, they wasn't bothered about their welfare, that is obvious imo.

I didn't know he had noticed the door moved, why didn't he mention it to kmccann. after all he had checked to make sure everything was ok - it wasn't

So if the abductor was in the room [if] - was he there when matt made his check.

If not then, the window should have been open, shutters up etc etc.

So door moved again, when kmccann goes, convenient gust of wind, window open.

Yet she still runs out, leaving twins, why didn't she scream for help - after all like some say it was like being in a garden.

Then they still put twins in creche next day, regardless of their welfare, the only reason i can think of for that, is they knew they were safe.

All my post imo

That 'convenient gust of window ' is the point Kizzy. It wasn't in Kate's first statement but I'm sure by the group collaboration they'll have realised that for Tannerman to have been the abductor the window would have to have been open from 9.15 and Matt would have seen it. Much the same as Gerry entering the apartment with his key. If, as we are told, he believed the abductor was in the apartment during his check Gerry would have passed the now open window so that had to change too.

[Robittybob1]

that there were others concerned for the welfare of their children.

Why should he think that, they wasn't bothered about their welfare, that is obvious imo.

I didn't know he had noticed the door moved, why didn't he mention it to kmccann. after all he had checked to make sure everything was ok - it wasn't

So if the abductor was in the room [if] - was he there when matt made his check.

If not then, the window should have been open, shutters up etc etc.

So door moved again, when kmccann goes, convenient gust of wind, window open.

Yet she still runs out, leaving twins, why didn't she scream for help - after all like some say it was like being in a garden.

Then they still put twins in creche next day, regardless of their welfare, the only reason i can think of for that, is they knew they were safe.

All my post imo

That is a difficult set of questions and diverse opinions.  What I am hoping is to understand some of them if it was possible.  It certainly isn't the typical hysterical response a lot would expect, so think clues.

Two of the early authors and even Kate herself have suggested Madeleine is being cared for in a family situation.  When did that care begin was it some nights before?