Did Silvia Batista know Robert Murat before Madeleine went missing?

[Robittybob1]

This was the point of discussion
"Quote from: misty on Today at 05:19:01 PM

Sylvia Batista knew Murat by sight after the event but apparently she made a mistake in identifying him as being near 5A on the night of the 3rd May 2007." End quote

My reply:
Are you really able to pin her down on that?  I find she never did this, in fact she never says she knew RM in my opinion.  Is that possible - she never knew RM at all?  What did she know before the event?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9114.msg445136#msg445136

I want to determine if Silvia ever knew RM and if she says she saw him there, if so, then when?
Why do some of the Tapas 7 say Silvia saw Robert Murat?

[Robittybob1]

This was the passage I read the other day:
it comes from RUSSELL O'BRIEN  Rogatory:

"Comments- I am troubled by MURAT’S denial of being there on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance and assisting in the translations.  This has troubled me he would have an alibi had he have been honest about being there.  The statement given in Portugal are true and accurate, other people put MURAT there on the night one of those being Sylvia head of house keeping. I would like to point out that I do not wish to change the statement given to the PJ but have reservations that the time may have been inaccurate and it may have been the following morning when I saw him."

Silvia is also mentioned in the following statements.
David Payne Rogatory:

". Err I think, I think it was Rachael, she's very organised and err you know whether she just booked for the first night at the Tapas and then decided that she's gonna book for subsequent nights err at the err not the main reception but the reception leading into the Tapas area, the Paul with I think the lady's Sylvia, and so she booked the err you know from early in the morning because I think they had to get in early to make sure that you know they could guarantee, there's only so many people who could eat there.'"

David Payne Rogatory continued:
[Then there is this "Silvia no not Silvia" comment.  That could be Emma Knight as she could speak English, who also tried to communicate.  I can't recall any other staff who helped other than Amy Tierney and because David links her with getting the printer I think that was more likely Amy.]

"and err Mark Warner staff had err grouped together and they were err you know trying to help the situation. Err one of the Mark Warner err ladies was staying with, in the apartment with err with Kate, you know Fiona stayed there, there was people you know popping in and out. There was a lady I think who I believe she came from the flat who ended up, you know, coming in towards their apartment as offering help and you know the next recollection really is that you know the Police, there was two Policemen who err arrived who I believe were from the GNR, err you know it felt you know quite some time before they got there, err I think there was a language barrier, the err one of the receptionists from the Tapas area, Sylvia, she was trying, actually no it wasn't Sylvia, it was the lady, one of the ladies who we, you know, I can't remember her name, who was trying to communicate you know between us and we were trying to convey that she's been abducted and we, we got a computer err printer, we'd got a picture of Madeleine so that it could be distributed as quickly as possible."

[Robittybob1]

The next mention of Silvia is:
Matt Olfield rogatory:

"But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car. Somebody's asked whether the siren was on and I think the lights were flashing but I don't remember, and I may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can't recall. So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment."

Silvia mentions coming back with Gerry in a GNR car.

Rachael Mampilly:
Well what about this as a statement?  It will take a bit of beating he shakes a guy's hand.  You don't forget that.

"I think it was round about the time when the Police had arrived that, because obviously they couldn't really speak English, erm they turned up with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English but he spoke Portuguese and'.
01.32.59 1578 'What time is it now''
 Reply 'I think that was about, it was about midnight, half past twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I think they'd been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our way, think it was about half twelve, erm and yeah MURAT introduced, well you know he said, hi I'm Robert and I speak Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, erm and introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well with the Ocean Club, introduced herself and erm I don't really, particularly remember talking to the Police, erm but yeah, they, they were there basically and that was about half past twelve, erm and erm I don't, I don't know where Jane was then, she wasn't around, I mean she might have just been back inside the apartment, this is out in the, that courtyard area, erm and I think Russell came up then as well, erm and you know we were just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other people sort of hanging around and looking and you know wondering what was going on, erm but Russell was there as well, erm and then the Police just sort of moved on, erm, erm you see and I think at that time, Russell got Robert MURATS mobile phone number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day but I don't know, I thought it was then that night, cos he thought it might be quite useful as he could speak, you know cos he could speak English and Portuguese'.
1578 'Well what did you witness in respect of that''
 Reply 'Well I think at that time Russell got his number and put it into his phone, erm'. "

Now if Silvia and this other guy are introducing themselves to the Tapas 7 members Silvia surely must remember that!


Rachael repeats that introduction to "Robert".
"Reply 'Erm well most of the time I spent talking to Jane and sort of checking on Grace, erm and saw, I remember the nannies coming up to talk to us, some of the Mark WARNER nannies and they'd been searching and looking round the village and sort of you know, rallying friends and people that they knew, erm I mean we were waiting for the Police for a lot of that time cos they didn't turn up for ages, erm and, and then when the GNR did arrive, erm you know, they came to say hello and erm Sylvia was there with them and so was Robert MURAT, erm there were other people sort of milling around in the background but Sylvia introduced herself and so did Robert MURAT, erm I mean he just introduced himself to me as Robert and we shook hands, "
 

[Robittybob1]

The thing that has really astounded me is the  close association of Silvia and this other guy introducing themselves as interpreters soon after the GNR arrived.  It is the impression that Silvia is aware that this other person is definitely there.

So how does Silvia explain this?

[Robittybob1]

Silvia explains how she got to know Robert and it all seems plausible:
"SECOND PAGE BATISTA
She's here as a witness. She is responsible for maintenance in the Ocean Club Resort located in Praia da Luz - Lagos. Because of her profession she knows many people of the English community, who live in Praia da Luz.
She knows the Murat (sic !) family, who has been there for about 30 years. In particular Mr. Murat and his wife Jenny. Mr. Murat was linked to building business and development of tourism enterprises, in Salema in her opinion. Mr. Murat died some years ago.
The Murat live in a house named "casa Liliana", near the Ocean Club.
Asked, she said not to remember whether the Murats have any child.
Asked, she said that on the night when Madeleine McCain (sic...) disappeared (03-05-2007), she was called by her boss, at about at 22:30. As she lives in Lagos she arrived shortly after at the resort. Close to the apartment A-5 of the OC there were already about 60 people to look for the girl.
She remembers, although she is not absolutely certain, given the time already elapsed, that an individual of about 1,70m, short light brown hair, with thin framed and light brown glasses, wanted from the start to help finding the child Madeleine McCann.
She doesn't remember at what time she saw him.
She doesn't remember how he was dressed up.
She doesn't remember who was with him, whether he came walking or in some vehicle. That same individual, she was told later, is the son of Morat, his first name is ROBERT.
Robert speaks fluently English and Portuguese. He helped the GNR of Lagos and later the PJ, translating the testimony of some British persons.
She admits as possible that Paul and June of the bar "Duke of Holland" and Mr. Byron of the firm JNB (management of properties in PDL) should be able to confirm if Robert Murat was there when Madeleine disappeared, and eventually other details.
She states that she spoke for the first time with Robert on Saturday (05-05-2007) or Sunday (06-05-2007) or may be on Monday (07-05-2007), during the breaks between the interviews in which he participated as a translator.
She describes him as a very sympathetic and direct guy. RM was very communicative and extrovert during the conversations they had together. He didn't mention any personal subject.
She ratified and will sign..............................."

[Robittybob1]

"She doesn't remember who was with him, whether he came walking or in some vehicle. That same individual, she was told later, is the son of Morat, his first name is ROBERT." 

So all in all Silvia is saying even though she knew the parents she didn't know their son Robert, but was told that the person there that night was Robert Murat by someone else (who may have been mistaken or not).
There is no reported introduction between these two people who are assisting with translation. 
Interestingly enough do the other GNR and PJ officers see Robert there?  No they don't.

We are definitely left wondering who this other person was.

[misty]

The thing that has really astounded me is the  close association of Silvia and this other guy introducing themselves as interpreters soon after the GNR arrived.  It is the impression that Silvia is aware that this other person is definitely there.

So how does Silvia explain this?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
*snipped*
SECOND PAGE BATISTA (15/5/07)
She's here as a witness. She is responsible for maintenance in the Ocean Club Resort located in Praia da Luz - Lagos. Because of her profession she knows many people of the English community, who live in Praia da Luz.
She knows the Murat (sic !) family, who has been there for about 30 years. In particular Mr. Murat and his wife Jenny. Mr. Murat was linked to building business and development of tourism enterprises, in Salema in her opinion. Mr. Murat died some years ago.
The Murat live in a house named "casa Liliana", near the Ocean Club.
Asked, she said not to remember whether the Murats have any child.
Asked, she said that on the night when Madeleine McCain (sic...) disappeared (03-05-2007), she was called by her boss, at about at 22:30. As she lives in Lagos she arrived shortly after at the resort. Close to the apartment A-5 of the OC there were already about 60 people to look for the girl.
She remembers, although she is not absolutely certain, given the time already elapsed, that an individual of about 1,70m, short light brown hair, with thin framed and light brown glasses, wanted from the start to help finding the child Madeleine McCann.
She doesn't remember at what time she saw him.
She doesn't remember how he was dressed up.
She doesn't remember who was with him, whether he came walking or in some vehicle. That same individual, she was told later, is the son of Morat, his first name is ROBERT.
Robert speaks fluently English and Portuguese. He helped the GNR of Lagos and later the PJ, translating the testimony of some British persons.

=============================================================

IMO there is nothing to suggest that SB had any acquaintance with RM prior to Madeleine's disappearance.
IMO SB would have been in a very difficult situation had she attended the confrontation in July 2007 between RM & RMO/FP/ROB.

[Robittybob1]

snip ....

IMO there is nothing to suggest that SB had any acquaintance with RM prior to Madeleine's disappearance.
IMO SB would have been in a very difficult situation had she attended the confrontation in July 2007 between RM & RMO/FP/ROB.

Misty I've got this memory of reading something where Silvia admits that the person looked like Robert Murat.  I have feeling it is in  Robert Murat section of the files.  Can you recall where that might be?

[misty]

Misty I've got this memory of reading something where Silvia admits that the person looked like Robert Murat.  I have feeling it is in  Robert Murat section of the files.  Can you recall where that might be?

Is this the relevant piece?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
*snipped*


Nevertheless, the positions are different regarding the witnesses that were heard, because while Sílvia Baptista [12] admits it is very possible that a person with the arguido's characteristics was helping to search for Madeleine on the night of the disappearance, other witnesses, Paul Wright, June Wright, Barend Weijdon and GNR officer José Baptista Roque [13], among other officers, mentioned that they didn't see the arguido on location that night.

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It would be helpful to know whether the locals listed were searching to the north or south of the apartment.

[Robittybob1]

Is this the relevant piece?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
*snipped*


Nevertheless, the positions are different regarding the witnesses that were heard, because while Sílvia Baptista [12] admits it is very possible that a person with the arguido's characteristics was helping to search for Madeleine on the night of the disappearance, other witnesses, Paul Wright, June Wright, Barend Weijdon and GNR officer José Baptista Roque [13], among other officers, mentioned that they didn't see the arguido on location that night.

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It would be helpful to know whether the locals listed were searching to the north or south of the apartment.

That is helpful but it may not be the reference I'm trying to find. Thanks.

PS: There was a footnote [12]  - [12] Questioning report on page 1290

from the full page order list "1289 to 1290 - Witness statement of Silvia Maria Correio Ramos Batista 2007.05.15
1291 - Declaration of above witness"  We have already reference these pages.

I have this recollection that it was in her own words. " because while Sílvia Baptista [12] admits it is very possible that a person with the arguido's characteristics was helping to search for Madeleine on the night of the disappearance," 
That sentence is like her own words "because while Sílvia Baptista [12] admits"  but the Final Report refers to a document which doesn't quite say what she is reported as saying.

I'm in two minds now.

[Robittybob1]

Is this the relevant piece?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
*snipped*


Nevertheless, the positions are different regarding the witnesses that were heard, because while Sílvia Baptista [12] admits it is very possible that a person with the arguido's characteristics was helping to search for Madeleine on the night of the disappearance, other witnesses, Paul Wright, June Wright, Barend Weijdon and GNR officer José Baptista Roque [13], among other officers, mentioned that they didn't see the arguido on location that night.

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It would be helpful to know whether the locals listed were searching to the north or south of the apartment.

Misty that must be it for it didn't come up on any further searches.

[Robittybob1]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510083/Madeleine-Witnesses-mistaken-suspect-Robert-Murat-British-double.html

Would Silvia pretend to not know Angus Symington?  And what are the chances of Angus choosing the alias "Robert" if it was him.
"There is no suggestion that Mr Symington was involved in Madeleine's disappearance and he is not a suspect in the case.

He sells and manages properties around Praia da Luz, including the Ocean Club, and had legitimate reasons to be in the town on May 3.

His office at Ocean Country Real Estate is a few hundred yards from Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in the resort, which his father co-founded and still co-owns.

Mr Symington and Mr Murat are of similar age, height and build, both share British backgrounds and they both wear similar glasses."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510083/Madeleine-Witnesses-mistaken-suspect-Robert-Murat-British-double.html#ixzz56I2dzavp

[Robittybob1]

http://portugalresident.com/finding-the-best-properties-in-western-algarve

[Robittybob1]

"But Mr Murat's hopes that the likeness could help him clear his name were dealt a blow last night when Mr Symington said he left Praia da Luz at 6pm on May 3 and was seven miles away at the time of the witness sightings, between 10pm and midnight.
He said: "I categorically wasn't around on the night she vanished. I was at home with my family." 
http://steelmagnolia-mccannarchives.blogspot.co.nz/2010/10/madeleine-witnesses-may-have-mistaken_30.html

Mind you any time after midnight could be just as significant.  I find it odd that he would cut his alibi off at midnight.

[Robittybob1]

"But Mr Murat's hopes that the likeness could help him clear his name were dealt a blow last night when Mr Symington said he left Praia da Luz at 6pm on May 3 and was seven miles away at the time of the witness sightings, between 10pm and midnight.
He said: "I categorically wasn't around on the night she vanished. I was at home with my family." 
http://steelmagnolia-mccannarchives.blogspot.co.nz/2010/10/madeleine-witnesses-may-have-mistaken_30.html

Mind you any time after midnight could be just as significant.  I find it odd that he would cut his alibi off at midnight.

But when did the first sightings of the "Robert" look alike first happen at Praia da Luz?