Author Topic: The Smithman e-fits  (Read 137312 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #825 on: March 07, 2018, 02:14:57 AM »
I wouldn't argue that point. However, that particular efit wasn't released to the press until August 2009 when the PI's were Alphaig rather than Oakley International.
http://metro.co.uk/2009/08/06/revealed-face-of-the-new-madeleine-mccann-suspect-321630/

I can only speculate that the Smiths' efits met with short shrift after being sent to the PJ (date unknown) & due to their perceived importance, formed the basis of discussions with Home Sec Alan Johnson who launched the scoping exercise in October 2009. IMO the Smiths' efits required the involvement of a police force to carry out follow-up work following publication.

Just seems to me that the McCanns are damned if they do and damned if they don't even if no-one really knows knows why certain actions or inactions occurred.

There has to be a reason behind why one set of efits (Smith) to which the police were privy was treated differently from another (Beckham).
Given that the police knew all about the Smith efits I think your opinion on why they were not publicised is a valid one.  That they were not publicised on police advice whatever the reason may seems strange to us ... but not even sceptics can deny the fact that they were in police hands so they had a locus in how they were handled. 

Just a thought ... imagine the internet and mainstream furore had the McCanns released the efits against police advice and forewarned Smithman had done a bunk.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #826 on: March 07, 2018, 03:53:02 AM »
So, back to the question - why would the Portuguese press have published the efits which directly conflicted the Smith family's identification of Gerry as per Amaral's book & the files? If the Smith family were ever needed in the future to testify against Gerry McCann, how could that happen if their testimonies were discredited by efits which were in direct opposition to what they'd originally told the PJ?
That is the dilemma perfectly expressed.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #827 on: March 07, 2018, 07:31:21 AM »
The Smith efits placed the unidentified man + child in Luz within an hour of Madeleine's disappearance, making him a strong contender to have been Madeleine's abductor. The VB lookalike was in Spain with no child.

You appear to be saying it was OK to release efits of those unlikely to be suspect but not those who were more likely...

As I said before, publicising an efit would be done for identifying and ruling out someone in the area. No libel involved.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #828 on: March 07, 2018, 07:34:19 AM »
You appear to be saying it was OK to release efits of those unlikely to be suspect but not those who were more likely...

As I said before, publicising an efit would be done for identifying and ruling out someone in the area. No libel involved.
What about when you say such and such a person looks like the e-fit?  Is that libel?
I think it was established this would always be just opinion hence not libel as it isn't considered as a fact.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 08:40:15 AM by Robittybob1 »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Lace

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #829 on: March 07, 2018, 09:22:45 AM »
The McCanns published the efits of the Victoria Beckham lookalike with no such qualms. Why were the Smith efits any different ?

The Victoria Beckham lookalike was all over the media,    obviously the police had allowed the e.fit to be broadcast.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #830 on: March 07, 2018, 09:59:26 AM »
I've already explained elsewhere that IMO the McCanns would be opening themselves up to a potential libel claim from an innocent member of the public if they published those efits. With or without an active police investigation, they were powerless because the PJ legally couldn't accept efits from PI's & MS would have been shown to have deviated from his original statement.

That circumstance obtains right from the beginning, it does not suddenly appear in the middle. Which then begs the question, if as you suggest there was fear of a libel claim, why bother to have someone prepare e-fits for a captive audience that would NBG for use in widening the horizon of the investigation/search.?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #831 on: March 07, 2018, 11:08:04 AM »
I wouldn't argue that point. However, that particular efit wasn't released to the press until August 2009 when the PI's were Alphaig rather than Oakley International.
http://metro.co.uk/2009/08/06/revealed-face-of-the-new-madeleine-mccann-suspect-321630/

I can only speculate that the Smiths' efits met with short shrift after being sent to the PJ (date unknown) & due to their perceived importance, formed the basis of discussions with Home Sec Alan Johnson who launched the scoping exercise in October 2009. IMO the Smiths' efits required the involvement of a police force to carry out follow-up work following publication.

You do twist yourself into all kinds of shapes to explain the unexplainable Misty. There is nothing from newspaper reports to interviews to Kate’s book which even suggests the McCanns were stopped from publicising the Smith efits. Don’t you think that if there had been a genuine investigative reason we would have been told it at the time of the Times article ? After all the journalist did seem to have a contact within the fund.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Lace

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #832 on: March 07, 2018, 12:12:20 PM »

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #833 on: March 07, 2018, 02:12:24 PM »

Do you really believe CdM or any other Portuguese media outlet would have published the efits in 2008 on the back of the launch of Goncalo Amaral's book & the documentary which was in the pipeline - because I sure don't. The Smith family were intrinsic to Amaral's narrative & they would have been left suitably discredited & embarrassed by the whole affair.

I don't thinks so, either, Misty.

Not when GA also had an arrangement for a regular column in CdaM. The one that looks vaguely like Gerry would have been ridiculed and forever disregarded.

A different potential issue is who had the copyright to actually publicise them at the time (if there were legal issues over payment)?

Yet another is which police force would have been responsible for following up leads? There was no active investigation at the time. It could have ended up with severe media invasion, vigilante action, and no active investigation to grant a search warrant in the event of a serious lead.


Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #834 on: March 07, 2018, 02:53:35 PM »
I don't thinks so, either, Misty.

Not when GA also had an arrangement for a regular column in CdaM. The one that looks vaguely like Gerry would have been ridiculed and forever disregarded.

A different potential issue is who had the copyright to actually publicise them at the time (if there were legal issues over payment)?

Yet another is which police force would have been responsible for following up leads? There was no active investigation at the time. It could have ended up with severe media invasion, vigilante action, and no active investigation to grant a search warrant in the event of a serious lead.

The McCanns could have used the money in the fund to buy advertising space in the Portuguese newspapers to publicise the efits. As to Amaral, do you really think he had any control of editorial decisions just because he wrote a column for the paper ? Besides he always thought that Smithman was a very important lead.

As to copyright that belonged to the fund or they would not legally have been allowed to pass the efits on to the PJ and Leicestershire police.

Your last paragraph makes you wonder why the McCanns even employed PIs if there was such an issue with any evidence they uncovered.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #836 on: March 07, 2018, 03:51:14 PM »
You do twist yourself into all kinds of shapes to explain the unexplainable Misty. There is nothing from newspaper reports to interviews to Kate’s book which even suggests the McCanns were stopped from publicising the Smith efits. Don’t you think that if there had been a genuine investigative reason we would have been told it at the time of the Times article ? After all the journalist did seem to have a contact within the fund.

The whole situation was designed to tie everyone up in knots, Faithlilly and what a cracking job someone did.
 I have no idea what was behind the real decision not to publish the efits before 2013 but here's my take on the situation (Libelling & harassing  an innocent person aside)

We know in January 2008 that Martin told the police he had been approached by Kennedy to produce efits.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P16/16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4135.jpg
"He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor's letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment."

Why not produce them at that time? Answer - because that would have invalidated his testimony given to the PJ in May 2007. He would therefore have not been able to testify against Gerry should the need have arisen.

Fast forward to August 2008.
The case was shelved. Murat was off the hook. The McCanns were off the hook despite the dog alerts, their failure to take part in the requisite reconstruction & Martin's identification of Gerry.
The McCanns appeared to be firmly of the belief that Tannerman was the abductor. What better way to throw a team of PI's off track than by suddenly producing efits of another man seen carrying a child who definitely wasn't Murat or Gerry, both of whom had alibis which seemed to satisfy the PJ at the time?
However, producing those efits at that time served a dual purpose for the Smiths . It meant not only that MS could not testify against Gerry but also against any person subsequently named as the person in the efits (who MS had said was probably Gerry). All the Smith family members who gave statements in May 2007 said they wouldn't recognise the man again, so an ID parade would have been pointless. Much more evidence than eye witness testimony would have been required & how would that have been acquired?
I think that by releasing the efits on Crimewatch in 2013, SY have effectively removed any chance of the Smiths ever testifying against the McCanns.
If the McCanns had published the efits, the Portuguese would have ridiculed the Smith family for a)not producing the efits for the PJ when the investigation was open and b)for conspiring with the McCanns to divert attention away from Gerry, towards another potential abductor. That would have been of no benefit to either the PJ/Amaral & his book  or any other team trying to progress the case. The status quo definitely worked in favour of certain people - at least, until SY found Crecheman.

All IMO.

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #837 on: March 07, 2018, 04:33:15 PM »
The whole situation was designed to tie everyone up in knots, Faithlilly and what a cracking job someone did.
 I have no idea what was behind the real decision not to publish the efits before 2013 but here's my take on the situation (Libelling & harassing  an innocent person aside)

We know in January 2008 that Martin told the police he had been approached by Kennedy to produce efits.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P16/16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4135.jpg
"He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor's letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment."

Why not produce them at that time? Answer - because that would have invalidated his testimony given to the PJ in May 2007. He would therefore have not been able to testify against Gerry should the need have arisen.

Fast forward to August 2008.
The case was shelved. Murat was off the hook. The McCanns were off the hook despite the dog alerts, their failure to take part in the requisite reconstruction & Martin's identification of Gerry.
The McCanns appeared to be firmly of the belief that Tannerman was the abductor. What better way to throw a team of PI's off track than by suddenly producing efits of another man seen carrying a child who definitely wasn't Murat or Gerry, both of whom had alibis which seemed to satisfy the PJ at the time?
However, producing those efits at that time served a dual purpose for the Smiths . It meant not only that MS could not testify against Gerry but also against any person subsequently named as the person in the efits (who MS had said was probably Gerry). All the Smith family members who gave statements in May 2007 said they wouldn't recognise the man again, so an ID parade would have been pointless. Much more evidence than eye witness testimony would have been required & how would that have been acquired?
I think that by releasing the efits on Crimewatch in 2013, SY have effectively removed any chance of the Smiths ever testifying against the McCanns.
If the McCanns had published the efits, the Portuguese would have ridiculed the Smith family for a)not producing the efits for the PJ when the investigation was open and b)for conspiring with the McCanns to divert attention away from Gerry, towards another potential abductor. That would have been of no benefit to either the PJ/Amaral & his book  or any other team trying to progress the case. The status quo definitely worked in favour of certain people - at least, until SY found Crecheman.

All IMO.

My and they call sceptics conspiracy nuts !

Apart from the fact that the efits weren’t publicised have you one iota of evidence for any of the above ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #838 on: March 07, 2018, 05:01:31 PM »
The Victoria Beckham lookalike was all over the media,    obviously the police had allowed the e.fit to be broadcast.
Which police?  Spanish , UK or the PJ?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Brietta

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #839 on: March 07, 2018, 05:05:15 PM »
My and they call sceptics conspiracy nuts !

Apart from the fact that the efits weren’t publicised have you one iota of evidence for any of the above ?

Neither Martin or Peter Smith saw the man's face for any length of time or clearly but they helped construct efits many months after the event.  The efits have been received with a remarkable amount of credulity.

There have been many witnesses who had a clear and studied view of individuals and who have provided information which helped efits to be constructed at the earliest opportunity.  Those efits almost without exception have been met with varying degrees of ridicule.

Therefore in my opinion had the McCanns promoted the Smith efits it is highly likely they would have been treated with the same contempt others were ...
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....