Author Topic: The Smithman e-fits  (Read 137040 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1185 on: April 08, 2018, 08:41:07 PM »

At a rough guess the same as all those other [insert suitable adjective here] folk who compile dossiers and send in FOI requests relating to this case, in the naive belief they are "making a difference".
But they are making a difference.  The case gets more funding, when other cases don't.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1186 on: April 08, 2018, 08:54:02 PM »
What mechanism would the PJ have for publishing the pics as the case was closed?
They said they would reopen the case if new evidence came along.
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Offline jassi

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1187 on: April 08, 2018, 09:19:09 PM »
They said they would reopen the case if new evidence came along.

Perhaps they didn't consider it new evidence.

Smith had told them that he couldn't/wouldn't be able to provide an e-fit and then a cowboy detective agency come along claiming they've got e-fits done by Smith.
Who are you going to believe ?

Perhaps if they'd been offered the full dossier things might have been different.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 09:24:46 PM by jassi »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1188 on: April 08, 2018, 09:40:18 PM »
But they are making a difference.  The case gets more funding, when other cases don't.

To which "they" do you refer ?
The case receives more funding as a result of requests to the H.O by The M.P.S not as a result of the activities of on line anoraks.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1189 on: April 08, 2018, 09:43:50 PM »
To which "they" do you refer ?
The case receives more funding as a result of requests to the H.O by The M.P.S not as a result of the activities of on line anoraks.
The request is to whom?  I'm not sure who makes the final decision to approve the funding but if there are politics involved the fact that the general public are still debating the case might influence the decision.

Are you saying they approve their own funding?  When you say "receives more funding as a result of requests to the H.O by The M.P.S", are you implying they are making the request to another part of the same organisation?  I didn't realise this.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 09:57:32 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1190 on: April 08, 2018, 10:27:32 PM »
The request is to whom?  I'm not sure who makes the final decision to approve the funding but if there are politics involved the fact that the general public are still debating the case might influence the decision.

Are you saying they approve their own funding?  When you say "receives more funding as a result of requests to the H.O by The M.P.S", are you implying they are making the request to another part of the same organisation?  I didn't realise this.

In the UK all police forces are answerable to the Office of Home Secretary as distinct from individuals who hold the office. There have been five Home Secretaries in the duration of the McCann case to date.
Operation Grange is funded by the Home Office not from The M.P.S dedicated budget. If OG want more funds they have to make their pitch to the Home Office. I doubt the fact that "the general public are still debating the case might influence the decision". comes into the equation simply because the general public are doing no such thing.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1191 on: April 08, 2018, 10:33:37 PM »
The request is to whom?  I'm not sure who makes the final decision to approve the funding but if there are politics involved the fact that the general public are still debating the case might influence the decision.

Are you saying they approve their own funding?  When you say "receives more funding as a result of requests to the H.O by The M.P.S", are you implying they are making the request to another part of the same organisation?  I didn't realise this.
Sorry it was my mistake I didn't understand HO thinking it was "head office" rather than the UK term "Home Office".  In NZ we don't have a "Home Office".
We don't have an official called "Home Secretary".

What is "Home Office"?  It could be similar to what we call "Internal Affairs"
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1192 on: April 09, 2018, 12:24:12 AM »
"IMO you have chosen to ignore the fundamental point of when the Smiths' efits were first passed to the PJ team ..."
 
REPLY:  On the contrary. That's one of the things I'm trying to find out!  The McCanns stated in a response to the Sunday Times apology that the PJ received them "by October 2009".  That's about as vague as you can get.  Why did the McCanns not give us a date? More to the point, WHO actually supplied these efits to the PJ? Was it the McCanns? Was it the private investigators? Furthermore, we are given to understand that Henri Exton compiled these efits from the Smiths in the spring of 2008. You have to ask: "Why did not the McCanns and their advisers IMMEDIATELY raise merry hell with the PJ, Leics Police or whoever and shout: "This could be the bloke who stole Madeleine. Get these efits into the media NOW!"  Yet we had to wait over five years before being allowed to see them.  Maybe it was actually Operation Grange who handed the efits to the PJ 'by October 2009'.
After all  8(0(* they already had them in September 2008 according to the Information Rights Unit of the Metropolitan Police.


" ... & what the PJ did when they received them - which appears to have been absolutely nothing."

REPLY:  As far as we know, if they did receive them (and we don't know that for sure), maybe they had already ruled out these efits as of no interest. So far as I can see, their only use to man and beast so far has been to be the focal point of a £2million TV show, and to carry on promoting the abduction narrative.

"Why try to undermine the UK powers-that-be by requesting answers from the Met which are, quite frankly, none of our business until the justified expenditure ceases & the investigation concluded?"

REPLY:  Please explain in what possible way asking proper questions about the provenance, history and use of these two mysterious efits can possibly undermine this investigation? 


You appear to be expecting the Met to publicly validate their acceptance of the efits as evidence worthy of inclusion in the investigation's TV appeal, while that may not be in keeping with their true intention.
The provenance & history of the images are not issues for which the Met are accountable.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 11:57:31 AM by John »

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1193 on: April 09, 2018, 10:47:29 AM »
Sorry it was my mistake I didn't understand HO thinking it was "head office" rather than the UK term "Home Office".  In NZ we don't have a "Home Office".
We don't have an official called "Home Secretary".

What is "Home Office"?  It could be similar to what we call "Internal Affairs"

I should have been more specific!
H.O  can be either Home Office or Head Office over here so the context in which it is being used gives the game away.. The Home Office looks after immigration, security, law and order emergency services etc.
I think most countries refer to it as The Ministry of the Interior or Internal Affairs. We just like to be different!
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline blonk

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1194 on: April 09, 2018, 11:28:45 AM »
You appear to be expecting the Met to publicly validate their acceptance of the efits as evidence worthy of inclusion in the investigation's TV appeal, while that may not be in keeping with their true intention. The provenance & history of the images are not issues for which the Met are accountable.


...folk who compile dossiers and send in FOI requests relating to this case, in the naive belief they are "making a difference".

These two efits are not a mere matter of curiosity. Nor are they part of any agenda other than a pursuit of the truth.

Everything about these efits is dark and mysterious - and subject to numerous evasions, half-truths, and now, with the Met saying they first received the efits in August 2011, then changing this to September 2008, outright contradictions.

I am only surprised that so few people have taken a serious interest in them. 

Let us look back for a moment at their origin, always bearing in mind that no-one apart from a handful of people even knew they existed before that dramatic Crimewatch McCann Special in October 2013, 6½ years after Madeleine was reported missing.
Ostensibly, these efits were drawn up by Henri Exton in the spring of 2008 on the basis of the Smiths’ recollections of what he looked like.

Just let’s run through some of the circumstances behind that claim, that make it seem highly improbable. We could mention, for example:

1 The Smiths say they only saw this man for a few seconds at the most

2 It was dark at the time (10pm)

3 They admitted the street lighting was ‘weak’

4 Some of them admitted they did not get a clear view of his face

5 When interviewed by the PJ on 26 May 2007, each one of the three Smiths stated on the record: “We would never be able to
recognise him if we saw him again”

6 The efits appear to have been drawn up a year or possibly longer after the claimed sighting on 3 May 2007, making any attempt at remembering a face in any detail impossible

7  Martin Smith by then told the PJ that he was 60% to 80% sure that the man he said he saw was Gerry McCanns, and

8 On the basis of the efits, it seems that the Smiths couldn’t even agree on what he looked like. One efit had a larger face, a rectangular-shaped head, a long and broad chin, wavy hair and thick lips. The other one didn’t.

Then we note the following: the PJ investigation was archived in July 2008, while Operation Grange was not set up until 12 May 2011 or later, an interval of very nearly three years. During this time, there was therefore no active investigation.

It is said by the McCanns that the efits were given to the PJ and Leicestershire Police ‘by October 2009’. We don’t know who handed them to these forces. Nor do we know when they did so. No do we know what they did when they received them. As I say, all is darkness and mystery.

But we might very well ask the McCanns: what did you do with the efits when the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary was made in May 2009, and what did you do with them when Kate McCann’s book, ‘madeleine’, was published in May 2011 (i.e. before Operation Grange was set up)?

In the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary, May 2009, the details of the Smithman sighting were given TWICE during the documentary, once in the middle, once at the end. It was definitely suggested that Tannerman and Smithman could have been one and the same – even though it would have meant the abductor wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz for three quarters of an hour. By the time this programme was shown, the McCanns had had the Smithman efits for up to a year. They also had ‘crack’ ex-detective Dave Edgar and his assistant, Arthur Cowley, working on the case (Cowley has since said on the record that he will take his secrets about the McCann case ‘to my grave’). They must have been shown the efits. The McCanns were clearly in control of that documentary; it rehearsed their account of events.

So why on earth did they not then release the Smithman efits and present them to the public?

Moreover, the same week as the documentary, the McCanns uploaded a 30-second recording in an Irish voice summarising Martin Smith’s statement. Once again, why on earth were the Smithman efits not shown on their website?

Then we come to Kate McCann’s book, 'madeleine’. On seven separate pages in the book, the Smithman sighting is referenced. On three of them, there is a detailed chart comparing the descriptions of Smithman and Tannerman, point by point, carefully emphasisng what Kate McCann calls the ‘striking similarity’ between the two sightings. Again, why was this second opportunity missed to highlight the Smithman efits?

As we all know, releasing the Smithman efits was only possible once Operation Grange had eliminated the Tannerman sighting.
£2 million and six months or more was spent by the BBC and Operation Grange in 2013 to try to convince us that Tannerman was in reality a bloke who hadn’t come forward for six years, who happened also to be carrying a young blonde girl, with no sign of her mother in sight, without a buggy, and dressed only in pyjamas – pyjamas, what’s more, that he had carefully kept in drawer for 6½ years. In addition, we were asked to believe he was wearing clothing similar to the cloth clothes, shiny classic shoes etc., and ‘not looking like a tourist’, described by Jane Tanner, then Nuno Lourenco, and then Martin Smith. Moreover he had not taken the shortest and most obvious route from the night crèche. 

Possibly the expert production of that Crimewatch Special, and its effect on the minds of the British public, have been Operation Grange’s greatest achievements.

All the same, just like Wendy Murphy, I’m not buying it.   

The provenance and history of these efits, and the use to which they have been put, are  absolutely matters on which the Met Police should be accountable. There is more than a degree of suspicion that the Met have not been truthful about them – and maybe others have not been truthful ,either.

A police force is accountable for all of its actions. Especially so when Madeleine’s disappearance is the most notorious missing child case in world history and the Met and the BBC invested so much time and money in promoting these two very controversial efits.

All IMO of course.                 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 12:20:29 PM by John »

Offline Lace

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1195 on: April 09, 2018, 11:43:20 AM »
Blonk have you wondered that the reason the efits weren't shown before SY had opened the case, was because the case had been closed?

Offline John

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1196 on: April 09, 2018, 12:03:41 PM »
Blonk have you wondered that the reason the efits weren't shown before SY had opened the case, was because the case had been closed?

Your three-year-old child disappears while on holiday and a year later you secure two e-fits (possibly others too) of a person who might have been involved and you do very little about it?   $65*

There's only one reason I can think of for not promoting the images immediately.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline blonk

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1197 on: April 09, 2018, 01:09:09 PM »
Blonk have you wondered that the reason the efits weren't shown before SY had opened the case, was because the case had been closed?

Well, yes, actually, I have...

...but then I have also wondered why these efits were produced in early 2008 but not used for five-and-a-half years after they were produced...

...and in particular I have wondered why:

1 The McCanns didn't immediately make them public in early 2008

2 The McCanns didn't show them to the PJ before they archived the case in July 2008

3 The McCanns did not make sure they were shown in the May 2009 C4/Mentorn documentary 

4  The McCanns never put the efits on their website, along with the Smithman audio recording, in May 2009

5 The McCanns never made them public themselves (despite going public with other sightings and their own efits e.g. the Victoria Beckham-lookalike, Barcelona, August 2009)    

6 The McCanns never put the efits in their book, 'madeleine', which emphasised that Tannerman was probably Smithman

7 Operation Grange gets mixed up over when they received the efits

8 It took Operation Grange two years and five months (May 2011 to October 2013) to get round to showing us the efits, and

9 Instead of showing us the efits at the first available opportunity, Operation Grange wasted over six months' time and over £1 million preparing TV show.     

Offline Lace

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1198 on: April 09, 2018, 01:12:49 PM »
Well, yes, actually, I have...

...but then I have also wondered why these efits were produced in early 2008 but not used for five-and-a-half years after they were produced...

...and in particular I have wondered why:

1 The McCanns didn't immediately make them public in early 2008

2 The McCanns didn't show them to the PJ before they archived the case in July 2008

3 The McCanns did not make sure they were shown in the May 2009 C4/Mentorn documentary 

4  The McCanns never put the efits on their website, along with the Smithman audio recording, in May 2009

5 The McCanns never made them public themselves (despite going public with other sightings and their own efits e.g. the Victoria Beckham-lookalike, Barcelona, August 2009)    

6 The McCanns never put the efits in their book, 'madeleine', which emphasised that Tannerman was probably Smithman

7 Operation Grange gets mixed up over when they received the efits

8 It took Operation Grange two years and five months (May 2011 to October 2013) to get round to showing us the efits, and

9 Instead of showing us the efits at the first available opportunity, Operation Grange wasted over six months' time and over £1 million preparing TV show.     

I don't think the McCann's were in a position to show the e-fits.

Maybe OG needed permission from the Portuguese police to put out the e-fits.

Offline jassi

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1199 on: April 09, 2018, 01:16:46 PM »
Nothing stopping the McCanns form doing it as they were outside the jurisdiction of the PJ
Whatever their excuse was, they simply chose not to.  IMO
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future