How accurate would be Martin Smith's ID of Gerry MaCann?

[Brietta]

What makes you think anyone watched his approach?

There is nothing from Peter Smith about where this man came from, but he does mention paying attention to his wife.

Martin Smith was probably with his wife, but I cannot be certain of even that.

Aoife brought up the rear of this entourage, but I have no clue as to who she was with.

Any idea where the other 4 children were?  It's extremely important.  It is a major unturned stone.

I assumed that Peter Smith, his wife and four children formed the first group.
I assumed that Martin and Mary were together with Aoife bringing up the rear on her own and from what little consideration I have given to the matter that is something I have always thought strange.
Not that it matters and they were very familiar with the locale, but in similar circumstances it would have been (and was) my preference to have sight of the teen members of the family and most certainly one walking on her own.

It could have been different; Aoife and the young boy could have walked together; a couple of the grandchildren could have been with Martin and Mary.
I'd not given it any thought.  Why do you think it important?

[Brietta]

I'm afraid not. She didn't see him approach at all, he was on the same level as she was and she saw him for the least time of the three imo.

 upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

She saw the buttons on his trousers so she must have had benefit of a clear view and she did not agree with her father's assessment of the descent from the plane.

[Alice Purjorick]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328

All the stuff below is from the links I put up last night:
NPIA
A composite image is a pictorial likeness produced from the witness’ s recall of the suspect for the purpose of achieving a ‘likeness’ of the suspect. The composite image is intended to be an aid to the investigation of crime alongside other corroborative evidence.

A facial imaging officer produces facial composite images using computer software
And cognitive interview techniques (see also1.7 Cognitive Interview). They work directly with victims or witnesses

A cognitive interview is used to help a witness to re call an event by recreating
the scene of that event in their mind’s eye. This involves reconstructing the scene piece by piece so that the witness almost relives the incident through their consciousness , allowing them to see the suspect and to describe them .
Surrey Police
The use of Facial Identification must be restricted as it is resource-intensive requiring a minimum of two hours per witness and may be extended if the witness is traumatised by the incident/attack. Investigators should always consider the evidential value facial identification has to any investigation and, in any case, must obtain the authority of the Detective Sergeant (Case Supervisor) before employing the services of an E-Fit officer.

In order to produce an E-FIT, the witness must have seen the front of the offenders face, (face to face).


The obvious question is, taking the police procedures at face value: with which agency did Martin Smith sit for two hours producing an e fit ?
I might be fun trying to reconcile this lot.

[jassi]

Obviously he went private   

[Robittybob1]

Obviously he went private   

And not following the police standard procedures (IMO) so how valuable could the E-fits ever be?

[jassi]

And not following the police standard procedures (IMO) so how valuable could the E-fits ever be?

In what way?
If you mean as evidence, then none at all.
However if a culprit is ever brought to court, it will be on the strength of much more damning evidence than an e-fit image.

[Miss Taken Identity]

In what way?
If you mean as evidence, then none at all.
However if a culprit is ever brought to court, it will be on the strength of much more damning evidence than an e-fit image.

like strength of albi and  other circumstantial evidence perhaps  like the concerns of Child Protection officer and Gaspar friends statements- in the absence of a body.

[Robittybob1]

In what way?
If you mean as evidence, then none at all.
However if a culprit is ever brought to court, it will be on the strength of much more damning evidence than an e-fit image.

The procedures said unless you saw the person face to face there is no point in doing an E-fit.  Do the Smiths say they had a clear face to face encounter with that person?  No they don't!  Therefore there is no value in the E-fit unless they were not telling the full story in Portugal.
It is either the e-fits or the statements in error, you can't have them both being valuable.  OK SY said the e-fits were valuable therefore they must have altered their statements too IMO.

[Alice Purjorick]

The procedures said unless you saw the person face to face there is no point in doing an E-fit.  Do the Smiths say they had a clear face to face encounter with that person?  No they don't!  Therefore there is no value in the E-fit unless they were not telling the full story in Portugal.
It is either the e-fits or the statements in error, you can't have them both being valuable.  OK SY said the e-fits were valuable therefore they must have altered their statements too IMO.

That of necessity relies on The MPS being convinced of the e-fit's provenance and generation methodology.
Then on the other hand The MPS may have gone forward on the basis "this is all we have to go on it's better than nothing".

Back in the realms of speculation.

[ShiningInLuz]

I assumed that Peter Smith, his wife and four children formed the first group.
I assumed that Martin and Mary were together with Aoife bringing up the rear on her own and from what little consideration I have given to the matter that is something I have always thought strange.
Not that it matters and they were very familiar with the locale, but in similar circumstances it would have been (and was) my preference to have sight of the teen members of the family and most certainly one walking on her own.

It could have been different; Aoife and the young boy could have walked together; a couple of the grandchildren could have been with Martin and Mary.
I'd not given it any thought.  Why do you think it important?

Smithman saw something as he walked down Rua da Escola Primaria on 3 May 2007, did he not?  But what.

I don't know what Smithman saw.  I do know this aspect has not been well-advertised in Portugal, so there has been no reason for it to jog his memory, thus far.

It's interesting you think Aoife was on her own.  I suspect, but cannot prove, she was with one or more of the other children.

It changes Smithman's point of view radically.

[Robittybob1]

Smithman saw something as he walked down Rua da Escola Primaria on 3 May 2007, did he not?  But what.

I don't know what Smithman saw.  I do know this aspect has not been well-advertised in Portugal, so there has been no reason for it to jog his memory, thus far.

It's interesting you think Aoife was on her own.  I suspect, but cannot prove, she was with one or more of the other children.

It changes Smithman's point of view radically.

What do you mean by this?  "It changes Smithman's point of view radically."  What are you able to go inside the mind of Smithman?

[sadie]

Smithman saw something as he walked down Rua da Escola Primaria on 3 May 2007, did he not?  But what.

I don't know what Smithman saw.  I do know this aspect has not been well-advertised in Portugal, so there has been no reason for it to jog his memory, thus far.

It's interesting you think Aoife was on her own.  I suspect, but cannot prove, she was with one or more of the other children.

It changes Smithman's point of view radically.

I must agree with SIL here. 
I have a feeling that Aoife was with at least one of the younger children.  Dont have a clue where I saw it but feel sure it was reported that she was with the younger chilldren.

[ShiningInLuz]

What do you mean by this?  "It changes Smithman's point of view radically."  What are you able to go inside the mind of Smithman?

The view that is widely discussed is the Smith's view.  Specifically that 3 Smiths - Martin, Peter, and Aoife.

It's as if Smithman passed 3 people that night. 

Except he didn't.  He passed 9 people.

So what did it look like from Smithman's point of view?

For example, if all 5 children were together in a gaggle with Aoife, he would have seen a group of 5.  Further, there is a slim chance that one of the parents would have looked back to check on the children, and in so doing would have seen where Smithman went next.

Brietta has suggested a layout that makes it Peter + Wife + 4 children,  then Martin and Mary, then Aoife on her own.  That is a very different layout.

Personally, I'd go with Aoife, the 13 year old and the 10 year old in one group, but I have no evidence to support this.

Where the 4 year old and the 6 year old were is equally unknown.

[Brietta]

Smithman saw something as he walked down Rua da Escola Primaria on 3 May 2007, did he not?  But what.

I don't know what Smithman saw.  I do know this aspect has not been well-advertised in Portugal, so there has been no reason for it to jog his memory, thus far.

It's interesting you think Aoife was on her own.  I suspect, but cannot prove, she was with one or more of the other children.

It changes Smithman's point of view radically.

I have tended to focus only on the one dimensional aspect of the three main players and their statements. 
You will have formed a more comprehensive and informed view having been on site in similar circumstances to the Smiths and the man they saw.
You have also put yourself in Smithman's shoes.  I've never given a thought to it from his perspective. 

What did he see if a local going from A to B?  Nothing really; just some people going home. So no difference.
What did he see if he was an abductor?  Just the same and there being no obvious hue and cry as yet, nothing to worry about, just keep cool, keep going and make sure your direction of travel once past the oncoming people wasn't noted.  So no difference there either.

Do you think Peter Smith might have been carrying one of the children?

It makes more sense for the two youngsters of similar age and perhaps others to be walking together than for Aoife to be on her own.
I still see it as more usual for them to range ahead rather than to bring up the rear though ... maybe that is just me.

But I'm lost as to why the spread of the Smith family would impinge on the man's progress.  It didn't seem to worry him because no agitation or nervousness in him was noted.

[Brietta]

A small thing but worth celebrating nonetheless ... we three are agreed that it is highly likely that Aoife was accompanied by at least some of the other children!!