Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence

[faithlilly]

It's the absence of one concerning Eddie that intrigued me.

Re Keela, from a transcript:


"She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the ..."

(Trying to find a working link.)

I've never read any such thing as regards Eddie. On the contrary, Grime talked about air cones and whatnot.

So, as far as you are aware, Grime has never claimed that Eddie alerts to only the residual scent of blood. Is that correct ?

[misty]

https://www.annmarieackermann.com/category/cadaver-dogs/

This is an interesting read with some very relevant points in various sections (especially about the use of pork).

[faithlilly]

https://www.annmarieackermann.com/category/cadaver-dogs/

This is an interesting read with some very relevant points in various sections (especially about the use of pork).

Having read a good portion of your link Misty the thing for me that comes across very clearly is the cadaver dog’s trainer’s faith in the capabilities of their dogs.

[misty]

Having read a good portion of your link Misty the thing for me that comes across very clearly is the cadaver dog’s trainer’s faith in the capabilities of their dogs.

IYO did Grime express the same faith in Eddie when he said "suggestive" of an alert being to whatever it was Eddie was trained to find?

[John]

I think some members are forgetting that cadaver dogs which are not trained using an actual cadaver will alert to many other substances.  The best trained dogs are those which are trained solely using cadavers.

If you train a dog using a cadaver it will alert when it finds a cadaver or cadaver odour.  If you retrain a dog which has previously been trained for some other purpose and it is trained using substitute organic material and dead pigs then you run the risk that it will alert to those substances or any material closely related to those substances.  Eddie was retrained, he was not trained solely using cadavers.  That in itself opens up all sorts of challenges to his reliability.

[faithlilly]

I think some members are forgetting that cadaver dogs which are not trained using an actual cadaver will alert to many other substances.  The best trained dogs are those which are trained solely using cadavers.

Is that what Grime, who is after all the expert, said ?

[faithlilly]

IYO did Grime express the same faith in Eddie when he said "suggestive" of an alert being to whatever it was Eddie was trained to find?

He did. He is also aware that an alert can only be indicative, legally and needs to be strengthened by supporting evidence.

[John]

Fact:  Eddie did alert in 5a and to clothing laid out in the gym.  The difficulty as we all know is that it is not known what he alerted to.

[faithlilly]

Fact:  Eddie did alert in 5a and to clothing laid out in the gym.  The difficulty as we all know is that it is not known what he alerted to.

Eddie was trained to alert to two scents, dried blood and cadaver odour. Grime said when Eddie alerted it was ‘ suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant. It therefore doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out the most likely source of the alert.

[misty]

Eddie was trained to alert to two scents, dried blood and cadaver odour. Grime said when Eddie alerted it was ‘ suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant. It therefore doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out the most likely source of the alert.

There was no identifiable source, though, as Grime clearly described when talking about scent-coning.

[faithlilly]

There was no identifiable source, though, as Grime clearly described when talking about scent-coning.

In many cases a cadaver dog will alert to the scent they are trained to detect long before any source of that scent is ever found, that’s why they are used. An alert is given great weight in an investigation and is often the reason why an investigation is steered in a certain direction. To suppose that because there is no identifiable source at that time that  the alert shouldn’t, or isn’t, being viewed as an important piece of intelligence is naive to say the least.

[misty]

In many cases a cadaver dog will alert to the scent they are trained to detect long before any source of that scent is ever found, that’s why they are used. An alert is given great weight in an investigation and is often the reason why an investigation is steered in a certain direction. To suppose that because there is no identifiable source at that time that  the alert shouldn’t, or isn’t, being viewed as an important piece of intelligence is naive to say the least.

A while back, Innominate pointed out that the r/h bed in the parents' bedroom covered an area of flooring which, during Eddie's exercise,  had been exposed on the night of 3/5. The wardrobe was also not dismantled to check for traces of blood which may have been present on the unexposed parts of the fixture. The examination for any source of scent prompting the alert was therefore incomplete.

[Robittybob1]

There was no identifiable source, though, as Grime clearly described when talking about scent-coning.

scent-coning???  what's that?

[Brietta]

scent-coning???  what's that?

Quite a bit about it on the internet.  Picked this one at random, a quick scan suggests it might cover a bit of the theory. http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

[misty]

scent-coning???  what's that?

The source of the scent could be coming from another area of the room but moved by air current, resulting in pooling in another area such as a corner or inside the fitted furniture.