Memory and stress

[gilet]

It is normal for statements to differ, sometimes greatly, Especially when the people involved are under massive stress from the unexplained disappearance of their child.

It always surprises me that people who have never been through such an experience imagine if their own child was missing, perhaps with an abductor, perhaps dead at the hands of some maniac, they would be able to concentrate perfectly in a foreign police station while being questioned in a foreign language and would not make any errors at all in what they said.  A total lack of empathy is not a good thing for even an online investigator as it means you don't fully understand the reality of a situation.

[C.Edwards]

It is normal for statements to differ, sometimes greatly, Especially when the people involved are under massive stress from the unexplained disappearance of their child.

I've seen this mentioned a lot. Everything I've read about stressful moments indicates it has an enhancing effect on memory.  Things are burned more clearly into your mind and detail is easier to recall.

I'd be interested to see any corroboration of this "normal for statements to differ" argument as I don't think that's true. Happy to be corrected though as I've not studied the subject.

[Benice]

I've seen this mentioned a lot. Everything I've read about stressful moments indicates it has an enhancing effect on memory.  Things are burned more clearly into your mind and detail is easier to recall.

I'd be interested to see any corroboration of this "normal for statements to differ" argument as I don't think that's true. Happy to be corrected though as I've not studied the subject.

Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)

4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
Unquote.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I've seen this mentioned a lot. Everything I've read about stressful moments indicates it has an enhancing effect on memory.  Things are burned more clearly into your mind and detail is easier to recall.

I'd be interested to see any corroboration of this "normal for statements to differ" argument as I don't think that's true. Happy to be corrected though as I've not studied the subject.

There's actually no contradiction

Stress does have an enhancing effect on memory. Perceptions of crucial or traumatic events will be more vivid and better retained over time, in any one individual.

At the same time, everyone has their unique perception and perspective.

The trauma does not cancel out the individual differences in perception; rather, those perceptions will be more profoundly felt in each person.

[AnneGuedes]

You only need to look at the statements taken on the 4 May 2007, a week later and then look at the Rotatory ones to see how they have morphed.

The very fact that Jane Tanner and Gerry McCann couldn't even agree what side of the road Gerry and Jez were stood on speaks volumes as does her off/on ID of Robert Murat and her various non descriptions of bundleman.

To answer the op however, my own belief is that Mr Amaral will come out of this smelling of roses.  No Portuguese Court is going to penalise him for exploring the facts and telling it as it was.

Unless SY meanwhile manages to determine the crime, i.e of course necessarily of abduction, a crime, as the AG deplored it, the McCanns couldn't demonstrate since their friends rejected the reconstitution.
This sounds like millions of pounds were wasted.

[Redblossom]

Unless SY meanwhile manages to determine the crime, i.e of course necessarily of abduction, a crime, as the AG deplored it, the McCanns couldn't demonstrate since their friends rejected the reconstitution.
This sounds like millions of pounds were wasted.

Like that is going to happen
 


But you are right  millions of  pounds have been and will be wasted

[AnneGuedes]

There's actually no contradiction

Stress does have an enhancing effect on memory. Perceptions of crucial or traumatic events will be more vivid and better retained over time, in any one individual.

At the same time, everyone has their unique perception and perspective.

The trauma does not cancel out the individual differences in perception; rather, those perceptions will be more profoundly felt in each person.

It's not only the event that is enhanced but all that was around when you were shocked and had nothing to do with it. I remember exactly where I was, who told it, who was nearby, what time it was, what I was doing, etc. when I heard JFK had been assassinated. And I was a little girl.
Precisely because they were different persons with different perspectives but having all been shocked at the same instant (except Ms Tanner), they should have participated in a reconstitution that would have boosted their individual memories.

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's not only the event that is enhanced but all that was around when you were shocked and had nothing to do with it. I remember exactly where I was, who told it, who was nearby, what time it was, what I was doing, etc. when I heard JFK had been assassinated. And I was a little girl.
Precisely because they were different persons with different perspectives but having all been shocked at the same instant (except Ms Tanner), they should have participated in a reconstitution that would have boosted their individual memories.

Yes, the JFK assassination is the archetype of the so-called 'Flashbulb memory.'

I came across a good summary of the mechanics of memory and its three stages: acquisition, retention, retrieval. What is interesting about this particular article is that it explains the process in the context of witness accounts.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/critical_thinking/Shadings_of_eyewitness_testimony.html

[AnneGuedes]

Thanks you, SH !

[Sherlock Holmes]

Thanks you, SH !

Welcome, Anne. I hope it will be useful to us...

[Benice]

It's not only the event that is enhanced but all that was around when you were shocked and had nothing to do with it. I remember exactly where I was, who told it, who was nearby, what time it was, what I was doing, etc. when I heard JFK had been assassinated. And I was a little girl.
Precisely because they were different persons with different perspectives but having all been shocked at the same instant (except Ms Tanner), they should have participated in a reconstitution that would have boosted their individual memories.

I would agree that the 'event' and everything that followed would be easy to remember, but not necessarily what happened before the event.   The McCanns and the group were asked to recall everything they did from the moment they arrived in PDL right up to the moment Madeleine was abducted, and to expect them to all give identical accounts is frankly ridiculous. 

As for the reconstruction - I am still waiting for someone to tell me how this can be achieved - when no-one except GM  (9.05) could give the precise times of their movements.    Normally in a reconstruction total accuracy would not be that important, but in this case it is - because to prove the small window of opportunity for an abductor to strike existed  - makes accuracy vitally important -  and that is the one thing the group - especially Jez Wilkins cannot guarantee. 

Jez Wilkins says he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 mins.  So which time do you choose for him to use during a reconstruction?   Would it be 3 min or 4 mins or 5 mins?  Or would they do 3 reconstructions using a different time every time.    JT says she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry - so the same problem exists there.    The number of different combinations of times given by 10 different people are massive.  It follows that the number of reconstructions required to cover all the possible variations is also massive.

However, Sy have overcome these problems by using the appropriate software - where they can key in all the different combinations of times etc etc and have been able to prove that there was a window of opportunity for an abduction to take place.    In a very short time they have achieved the same with a computer what it may have taken days for a physical reconstruction to achieve, not to mention the disruption to the complex, and the cost and inconvenience caused to all those taking part - as well as the mental anguish of having to repeat such a painful time in all their lives.

As a result of this 'virtual reconstruction' SY are satisfied that there was time for an abduction to take place, and no doubt they will have shared their findings with their Portuguese counterparts.   As far as I am concerned if it's good enough for SY it's good enough for me - and so the fact that no actual physical reconstruction has happened is no longer relevant IMO.

p.s.

The idea that a reconstruction will guarantee that the wind would  be blowing in an identical fashion to how it did on the 3rd May is pure nonsense.








   

[Sherlock Holmes]

As for the reconstruction - I am still waiting for someone to tell me how this can be achieved - when no-one except GM  (9.05) could give the precise times of their movements.    Normally in a reconstruction total accuracy would not be that important, but in this case it is - because to prove the small window of opportunity for an abductor to strike existed  - makes accuracy vitally important -  and that is the one thing the group - especially Jez Wilkins cannot guarantee. 

However, Sy have overcome these problems by using the appropriate software - where they can key in all the different combinations of times etc etc and have been able to prove that there was a window of opportunity for an abduction to take place.    In a very short time they have achieved the same with a computer what it may have taken days for a physical reconstruction to achieve, not to mention the disruption to the complex, and the cost and inconvenience caused to all those taking part - as well as the mental anguish of having to repeat such a painful time in all their lives.

As a result of this 'virtual reconstruction' SY are satisfied that there was time for an abduction to take place, and no doubt they will have shared their findings with their Portuguese counterparts.   As far as I am concerned if it's good enough for SY it's good enough for me - and so the fact that no actual physical reconstruction has happened is no longer relevant IMO.

Fascinating, Benice. The Yard is working with such sophistication. I did not know this software existed.

[gilet]

Fascinating, Benice. The Yard is working with such sophistication. I did not know this software existed.

Here is a commercial option used by at least one UK force.

http://www.crime-scene-vr.com/

This article provides a basic view of the possibilities of Crime Scene Reconstruction using Real-Time Interactive 3D Technology

http://www.pmsmicro.com/forensicscienceschapter_4d.pdf

And here is an article from Jornal de Noticias, outlining the SY use of software and bemoaning the PJ's mor "handmade" approach.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/virtual-reconstitution-tests-witnesses.html

[gilet]

I've seen this mentioned a lot. Everything I've read about stressful moments indicates it has an enhancing effect on memory.  Things are burned more clearly into your mind and detail is easier to recall.

I'd be interested to see any corroboration of this "normal for statements to differ" argument as I don't think that's true. Happy to be corrected though as I've not studied the subject.

I apologise as I have only just seen this post.

I shall reply as soon as possible.

Reply.

The whole field of forensic linguistics (or more widely, corpus linguistics) is quite complex but I will attempt to make a few brief comments and references.

Witness statements are best (ie most accurate) when they record the actual words used by the person giving the statement in relation to the actual question posed to that witness.

In the case of the statements made in Portugal, these do not allow for real forensic examination in that they are mere summaries of replies and do not show the full question which was being answered or the verbatim response of the witness. In addition there is the further complication that no original is available to us for examination and we have to rely on translations.

To place absolute confidence in any of these statements as accurate reflections of what was said is rather foolhardy. Unless the witnesses are further questioned it is impossible to determine exactly what was intended by certain statements.


However setting aside these clear impediments to proper analysis of the statements there is the more general question as to the "accuracy" of witness statements taken in such stressful circumstances as those which faced the McCanns (their child having disappeared and the need to make a statement in a foreign police station about the matter).

UK Ministry of Justice guidelines state inter alia that:

"Trauma and stress can interfere with the process of remembering..."

"The additional stress of coping with an unfamiliar situation is likely to reduce the ability of witnesses to participate and to respond to questioning, or to effectively recall events in order to assist the fact-finding process of the criminal justice system."

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/victims-and-witnesses/vulnerable-witnesses/achieving-best-evidence-criminal-proceedings.pdf


A short summary of the problems related to eye-witness memory can be found here.

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/eyewitnessmemory.html


A longer and more detailed account of various problems related to witness statements can be found in this cached Google document.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fartsweb.bham.ac.uk%2FMToolan%2Fnewsite%2FRock.doc&ei=gwtHUr_2AYjR7Ab5x4CACg&usg=AFQjCNGlXaUpONlexFFww5VHu61R-fIDJg&sig2=vE96e-siyMbKFwq27RpCSg

But a fuller review of the issues can be found in
"Analysing Witness Testimony: A Guide for Legal Practitioners and Other Professionals" edited by Anthony Heaton-Armstrong, Eric Shepherd & ‎David Wolchover. Though much of the text is relevant, Chapter 17 is particularly so.

[Mr Gray]

It's not only the event that is enhanced but all that was around when you were shocked and had nothing to do with it. I remember exactly where I was, who told it, who was nearby, what time it was, what I was doing, etc. when I heard JFK had been assassinated. And I was a little girl.
Precisely because they were different persons with different perspectives but having all been shocked at the same instant (except Ms Tanner), they should have participated in a reconstitution that would have boosted their individual memories.

wrong again........The effects of stress on memory include interference with one’s capacity to encode and ability retrieve information.[1] When stress occurs, the body reacts by secreting stress hormones into the blood stream. Stress can cause acute and chronic changes in certain brain areas which can cause long-term damages.[2] Over-secretion of stress hormones most frequently affects memory negatively, but in a few cases can affect it positively. In particular, the hippocampus, prefrontal cortex and the amygdala are affected


I cant see how you as a little girl suffered from stress when you heard about JFK...have another think..perhaps it has affected your memory