Memory and stress

[Redblossom]

IMO The date was trivial in the extreme compared to other things they were being asked to recall.  I'm sure that had they been told it was of vital importance then they would have all been able to work out which night it was -  once they gave it some serious thought   - but as it happens they simply had had no reason to give it any special attention.

Jane Tanner would have remembered surely as her other half was off sick? Or looking after his sick daughter, I dont recall which it was. Or maybe not then.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Well in the spirit of the thread,  and the substantive subject under discussion,  could we assume that the quiz night WAS  important  ...  or,  rather,  something that happened on the quiz night was important ?

Purely hypothetically let's imagine the following scenario  :

During the quiz,  or some time later,  Kate and Gerry have a blazing row ...  I don't know,  let's say because Gerry had been paying too much attention to the attractive quiz mistress  ( purely hypothetical, remember  )  ...  and Kate stormed off back to the apartment on her own

Now,  let's assume that the tapas friends would be reluctant to tell the police about that incident because they felt it had nothing whatsoever to do with the crisis that unfolded two days later,  but were afraid the police might  'make something out of it '

So out of loyalty to Kate and Gerry,  they decide it is best not to mention the incident,  which they feel is insignificant  in any event 

They cannot  'lie'  to the police though  ...   so they collectively  'forget'  all about that night  ...  indeed,  they even forget what night it was   

Given the research you are are refering to,  is there a possibility that  collective forgetfulness may be an indication of lying  ...  where the subject forgotten  IS   significant  (  as in the hypothetical example I have given  )  ?

Well that's a fascinating example, Icabod. And of course not too far removed from certain truths, as Gerry and Kate were alleged to have had an argument one night, weren't they?

But back to your theoretical example -

I just want to be sure of what you are saying at the very end. When you talk of 'collective forgetfulness' in this context, do you mean that that that forgetfulness was subconscious? In other words, the group subconsciously subdued their memories of when the quiz took place, as part of an instinctive manoeuvre to protect themselves and the McCanns?

[icabodcrane]

Well that's a fascinating example, Icabod. And of course not too far removed from certain truths, as Gerry and Kate were alleged to have had an argument one night, weren't they?

But back to your theoretical example -

I just want to be sure of what you are saying at the very end. When you talk of 'collective forgetfulness' in this context, do you mean that that that forgetfulness was subconscious? In other words, the group subconsciously subdued their memories of when the quiz took place, as part of an instinctive manoeuvre to protect themselves and the McCanns?

No Sherlock,  I was thinking more about a deliberate feigning of forgetfulness in order  to avoid talking about a subject that might be damaging

You suggested that uniform  'remembering'  might be an indication of lying,  and I wondered if uniform   'forgetting'   might indicate lying too 

Just to add,  whilst the scenario I painted was hypothetical,  there are factually  significant events associted with the  'forgotten'  quiz night

It was the night Mrs Fenn heard crying in the McCann's apartment for an hour and a quarter ....  and it was the night Kate McCann's mobile phone was' pinged'  in the apartment showing a flurry of activety that was unique

[Sherlock Holmes]

IMO The date was trivial in the extreme compared to other things they were being asked to recall.  I'm sure that had they been told it was of vital importance then they would have all been able to work out which night it was -  once they gave it some serious thought   - but as it happens they simply had had no reason to give it any special attention.

I agree with this Benice, because another aspect of memory in a case like this is that not only are important things better retained and more readily retrievable, but conversely, things that are trivial (subjectively, to the individual, that is) are temporarily forgotten, until someone else brings them up and reminds us.

We have all been in situations where we have been discussing an event long passed with a friend, and the friend says 'and do you remember such and such detail', and in fact such and such had been forgotten by us, until the friend's reminder,  because we did not find it significant at the time. This is retrieval - the 'memory' is there lying dormant until someone gives us cause to refer back to it.

[Sherlock Holmes]

No Sherlock,  I was thinking more about a deliberate feigning of forgetfulness in order  to avoid talking about a subject that might be damaging

You suggested that uniform  'remembering'  might be an indication of lying,  and I wondered if uniform   'forgetting'   might indicate lying too 

Just to add,  whilst the scenario I painted was hypothetical,  there are factually  significant events associted with the  'forgotten'  quiz night

It was the night Mrs Fenn heard crying in the McCann's apartment for an hour and a quarter ....  and it was the night Kate McCann's mobile phone was' pinged'  in the apartment showing a flurry of activety that was unique

I think I see what you mean, Ichabod.

It's possible that the group could have got together to pretend to forget something that was inconvenient for their collective alibis, just as they could have plotted to fabricate a timeline they imagined people would find convincing.

It is interesting that quiz night did contain its own dramas; perhaps it could be significant that the date of the quiz night was 'forgotten'.

If so, this would be the only major anomaly in T9 recording of events, though, wouldn't it? Is there anything else that would qualify as being as glaring as that?

As things stand, the fact that the famous timeline (s) contain discrepancies neither too large nor too small can be read as an indication that there was no cover up.

[Benice]

Jane Tanner would have remembered surely as her other half was off sick? Or looking after his sick daughter, I dont recall which it was. Or maybe not then.

Well there you go Red, even you can't remember all the details - which is quite normal IMO.

Do you really think that if they were all individually told that the date of the Quiz was vital to the enquiry that they would NOT have come up with the correct time.  Of course they would, it was just not something important enough to be able to bring to mind without first giving it serious thought - and as far as I know they were never asked to do that  - as it was something that could easily be established elsewhere if necessary and so to deliberately lie would have been a complete waste of time anyway.


 

[Redblossom]

Well there you go Red, even you can't remember all the details - which is quite normal IMO.


 

Remembering all the details of all their rogatory interviews is hardly the same as remembering what I or my partner was doing on a certain day, LOL Benice

[Benice]

Remembering all the details of all their rogatory interviews is hardly the same as remembering what I or my partner was doing on a certain day, LOL Benice

But the principle is the same Red.

Night night.

[AnneGuedes]

Yes, it's a very complex tapestry with so many people involved.

Instead of thinking once or twice in order to deliver statements that would lead to a figure on the tapestry, it seems they didn't care, as if they thought it had nothing to do with the drama that had happened.
Had they doubted as reason requires but panic forbids, like wondering whether Madeleine had been taken from her bed or in the corridor or in the patio, they likely had made an effort and answered accurately. They didn't doubt the event was out there, not in PDL, not in the resort, not in the G5 anymore.

[Redblossom]

But the principle is the same Red.

Night night.

Sleep well

perhaps tomorrow you can offer an explanation of remembering things  that didnt happen
 >@@(*&)

Or why your word is so different from your friends in a given situation that you were both part of

[puglove]

But the principle is the same Red.

Night night.

From my own experience, if something truly awful and earth-shattering happens, you can recall every last detail, every sight, every sound, every last memory. It's seared onto your brain. You can remember what you wore, what you could smell, what you could hear....you are on such high-alert. You can recall silly things that didn't matter - every tiny detail is blown out of proportion. It's crazy to pretend that the McCanns can't recall every single moment when they realised that Madeleine was gone.

[AnneGuedes]

Do you really think that if they were all individually told that the date of the Quiz was vital to the enquiry that they would NOT have come up with the correct time. 

The police knew the date, they were curious to know if the witnesses remembered it.
When something is disturbing but not vital for you, you tend to forget it.
You forgot it.. Did it really exist ? Was it serious ? Did it affect you ?
If you forgot it, surely it wasn't not important.

[AnneGuedes]

You can recall silly things that didn't matter - every tiny detail is blown out of proportion.

That's very true. Now why you do remember futile things ? Ask Sigmund ?

[icabodcrane]

Actually Shona I find the reverse to be true. The trauma is so great that common sense and the ability to recall goes out of the window. So awful is the dilemma you find yourself in.

You won't believe me of course.

You can't make that claim to people who have experienced great trauma ...   and recall every detail with absolute clarity,  even years later

It's not a question of not believing you  ...  it is a question of knowing you are wrong,   from personal experience

[puglove]

Actually Shona I find the reverse to be true. The trauma is so great that common sense and the ability to recall goes out of the window. So awful is the dilemma you find yourself in.

You won't believe me of course.

It's not that I don't believe you. But, what I've found is when something happens that is so truly awful, every last detail plays over and over again. What you wore, what you could smell, the song on the radio....are we programmed to remember?