Author Topic: Memory and stress  (Read 10200 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2013, 02:38:29 PM »
I have worked with people with PTSD and other memory problems using CBT and EMDR. I have also taught courses for Police and Lawyers on problems with recall of events.

The key points that just about all professionals agree on are:

1/ Memory is completely Reconstructive. That is to say that 'facts' stored in our brains about the past are constructed in many ways- biased perception, biased analysis, biased retention, biased storage and biased recall. These biases occur because of previous experiences, expectations about the milieu, power relationships, personal involvement and many other features. There is clear evidence that if an event is witnessed by many people, the ensuing statements from different people always differ in content, tone and assumption.

2/ Although 'iconic' (claimed eidetic-photographically clear and  apparently real, and especially accurate) memories are claimed for high emotion events, these too are reconstructed and when checked against reality are seen to be as biased as any other type of recall. This type of memory is common in PTSD and when the recall is normalised and defused emotionally, people come to realise that what they were claiming as photographic and clear recall was in fact their own construction of events- with as many fallacies as any other recall- eidetic memory is not especially valuable.

3/ Courts rely on identification evidence and factual witness statements despite rather than because of the scientific truth about such claims. Forensic specialists know that such evidence is empirically unsafe, but feel that given the need to make decisions, the best way is to allow Juries or Magistrates to hear the evidence supported and challenged in a Court. The truth is that most such evidence is almost totally valueless. There are lists of sentences that must be read by Judges to Juries (and internalised by Magistrates) about the major problems with such statements.

In summary about this case_

1/ The High Emotion involved with the loss of a child would neither improve nor impair statements made by the people.

2/ Witness statements taken from a group of people are always full of inconsistencies even under ideal circumstances, and even more so under high stress situations.


Having followed the McCann case previously before it was settled legally, I do understand that facts have little value in this debate and that people will continue believing what they wish in order to support their own views (that is human nature), but the above are the Empirical Facts about  legal statements. No one suggests from a scientific stance (only from a political, forensic or emotional stance) that supposed 'eidetic' memories are especially accurate, or that a group of witness statements should be anywhere near consistent.


Interesting post, thank you.

Some interesting articles here:

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/profiles/gep34

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/profiles/gep34

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2013, 02:57:49 PM »
I have worked with people with PTSD and other memory problems using CBT and EMDR. I have also taught courses for Police and Lawyers on problems with recall of events.

The key points that just about all professionals agree on are:

1/ Memory is completely Reconstructive. That is to say that 'facts' stored in our brains about the past are constructed in many ways- biased perception, biased analysis, biased retention, biased storage and biased recall. These biases occur because of previous experiences, expectations about the milieu, power relationships, personal involvement and many other features. There is clear evidence that if an event is witnessed by many people, the ensuing statements from different people always differ in content, tone and assumption.

2/ Although 'iconic' (claimed eidetic-photographically clear and  apparently real, and especially accurate) memories are claimed for high emotion events, these too are reconstructed and when checked against reality are seen to be as biased as any other type of recall. This type of memory is common in PTSD and when the recall is normalised and defused emotionally, people come to realise that what they were claiming as photographic and clear recall was in fact their own construction of events- with as many fallacies as any other recall- eidetic memory is not especially valuable.

3/ Courts rely on identification evidence and factual witness statements despite rather than because of the scientific truth about such claims. Forensic specialists know that such evidence is empirically unsafe, but feel that given the need to make decisions, the best way is to allow Juries or Magistrates to hear the evidence supported and challenged in a Court. The truth is that most such evidence is almost totally valueless. There are lists of sentences that must be read by Judges to Juries (and internalised by Magistrates) about the major problems with such statements.

In summary about this case_

1/ The High Emotion involved with the loss of a child would neither improve nor impair statements made by the people.

2/ Witness statements taken from a group of people are always full of inconsistencies even under ideal circumstances, and even more so under high stress situations.


Having followed the McCann case previously before it was settled legally, I do understand that facts have little value in this debate and that people will continue believing what they wish in order to support their own views (that is human nature), but the above are the Empirical Facts about  legal statements. No one suggests from a scientific stance (only from a political, forensic or emotional stance) that supposed 'eidetic' memories are especially accurate, or that a group of witness statements should be anywhere near consistent.

Thanks for this summary, Saepe Sepe - amazingly clear and detailed

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2013, 03:00:44 PM »
Gosh - I always thought JFK had been shot ....
But was saved ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2013, 03:14:32 PM »
A verbatim account would probably show how a misunderstanding may have occurred - which I believe was the case.    Particularly as it is recorded (in  JT's verbatim statement)  by the Police  Officer that confusion was originally caused by some people referring to  the patio doors as the Front Door whilst others referred to them as the Back Door.   If that wasn't a recipe for misunderstandings I don't know what is.   
This post sounds like a recipe for misunderstanding. Do you at least know the Portuguese word for "patio door" because it is not "porta do pátio" ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2013, 03:17:35 PM »
There is clear evidence that if an event is witnessed by many people, the ensuing statements from different people always differ in content, tone and assumption.
As a psychologist (I assume you are), what would you say about statements from the same person differing in content and assumptions along time ?

Offline Carana

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2013, 04:09:34 PM »
I am not going to comment on my background given the sniping that goes on on forums about such things- a whole thread on Haverns last week about whether it was illegal to call oneself a therapist. Waste of Bandwidth.

The same applies to retaken statements as to differences between witnesses. Memory is reconstructed everytime it is formally or informally requested. Perfect recall is only possible when working toa script or having recently consulted previous notes.

An added complication, in my view, is that the PT witness statements were not verbatim, and were the result of attempted communication between the witnesses, whoever could be called upon to help interpret and the officer taking notes.

The statement (or at least notes) were apparently verbally retranslated for them, but what they signed was in Portuguese and I have never seen any indication that they had a written translation which they could read and with which they agreed and had also signed.


Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2013, 04:30:47 PM »
An added complication, in my view, is that the PT witness statements were not verbatim, and were the result of attempted communication between the witnesses, whoever could be called upon to help interpret and the officer taking notes.

The statement (or at least notes) were apparently verbally retranslated for them, but what they signed was in Portuguese and I have never seen any indication that they had a written translation which they could read and with which they agreed and had also signed.

Wasnt the Portuguese read back to them in English before they ratified/signed?

@Benice, Gerrys first statement is a poor example to use to argue that front and back door could have been mixed up in translation as he could not have possibly said he used the patio door seeing as he said he used his key to enter the flat as it was locked and those patio doors are not unlockable from the outside. Anyway....
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:34:11 PM by Redblossom »

Offline Carana

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #127 on: October 01, 2013, 04:31:58 PM »
There is extensive research into such serially recorded interviews. There is also research showing that police recordding (writing) of interviews almost always takes a police-biased version of events, with phrases strengthened and weakened to meet the assumptions already made. The University of Portsmouth hosted an excellent presentation on this very subject showing how statements distort reality.

Is this what you are referring to?


I posted on this months ago.

Interesting interview on cognitive interviews.

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/body-mind/psychology/becky-milne-explains-the-cognitive-interview


And this on eyewitness testimony:

http://www.whatispsychology.biz/putting-eyewitness-testimony-to-the-test-00030

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1296.msg37311#msg37311

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #128 on: October 01, 2013, 04:51:37 PM »
There is extensive research into such serially recorded interviews. There is also research showing that police recordding (writing) of interviews almost always takes a police-biased version of events, with phrases strengthened and weakened to meet the assumptions already made. The University of Portsmouth hosted an excellent presentation on this very subject showing how statements distort reality.

Hiya,

Would you share your views on the fact that the DR's McCann both first recalled using the front door, then both said they'd used the back door in a later statement?

Frankly I don't care what your background or qualifications are, you obviously have a vast knowledge on the subject and I don't. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Cariad.

Offline Carana

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #129 on: October 01, 2013, 04:59:13 PM »
Hiya,

Would you share your views on the fact that the DR's McCann both first recalled using the front door, then both said they'd used the back door in a later statement?

Frankly I don't care what your background or qualifications are, you obviously have a vast knowledge on the subject and I don't. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Cariad.

Saepe would first have to read the statements, I would have thought.

Only Gerry's initial statement stated that he and Kate had entered via the front (ie. the long way). This after little sleep, someone of undetermined experience having been brought in to interpret, and stress also for the PJ station.

It doesn't even make sense as - in the same statement - Gerry stated that Matt Oldfield had gone to check via the patio door.

In the same statement??? It makes no sense. I honestly believe that the police officer got it mixed up and it wasn't challenged at the time.

Kate never stated that she'd entered via the front door. Neither did Oldfield.


Offline DCI

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Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #130 on: October 01, 2013, 05:04:52 PM »
Hiya,

Would you share your views on the fact that the DR's McCann both first recalled using the front door, then both said they'd used the back door in a later statement?

Frankly I don't care what your background or qualifications are, you obviously have a vast knowledge on the subject and I don't. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Cariad.

Hi Cariad,

I think they are easily mixed up. If I was to be in their apartment, I would call the patio door the front door, as it is at the front of the apartment. The front door, the back door, because to me you walk up and around to the back to enter,  perhaps thats how Kate and Gerry, thought of them, until they were told different.
Kate's 500 Mile Cycle Challenge

https://www.justgiving.com/KateMcCann/

Offline Victoria

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #131 on: October 01, 2013, 05:06:16 PM »
Saepe would first have to read the statements, I would have thought.

Only Gerry's initial statement stated that he and Kate had entered via the front (ie. the long way). This after little sleep, someone of undetermined experience having been brought in to interpret, and stress also for the PJ station.

It doesn't even make sense as - in the same statement - Gerry stated that Matt Oldfield had gone to check via the patio door.

In the same statement??? It makes no sense. I honestly believe that the police officer got it mixed up and it wasn't challenged at the time.

Kate never stated that she'd entered via the front door. Neither did Oldfield.

It's not the kind of point a case is going to hinge on. At least, not in the real world. Maybe it would be pivotal in a low-budget TV cop show, or in the even less authentic world of Amaral's brain, but not in reality.

Probably a mistranslation, or simply a mis-remembering as a result of the stress of the situation. certainly not worth considering in any detail.

Offline Carana

Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #132 on: October 01, 2013, 05:13:33 PM »
It's not the kind of point a case is going to hinge on. At least, not in the real world. Maybe it would be pivotal in a low-budget TV cop show, or in the even less authentic world of Amaral's brain, but not in reality.

Probably a mistranslation, or simply a mis-remembering as a result of the stress of the situation. certainly not worth considering in any detail.

Ahh. But Amaral found this so-called discrepancy important. It didn't seem to occur to him that the initial chaos and language difficulties could have had any effect on the initial summary statements. And it has been repeated ad nauseum. As have other so-called discrepancies between the initial basic questions / answers by an overwhelmed police force and the statements taken 10 days later.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #133 on: October 01, 2013, 06:17:56 PM »
Saepe would first have to read the statements, I would have thought.

Only Gerry's initial statement stated that he and Kate had entered via the front (ie. the long way). This after little sleep, someone of undetermined experience having been brought in to interpret, and stress also for the PJ station.

It doesn't even make sense as - in the same statement - Gerry stated that Matt Oldfield had gone to check via the patio door.

In the same statement??? It makes no sense. I honestly believe that the police officer got it mixed up and it wasn't challenged at the time.

Kate never stated that she'd entered via the front door. Neither did Oldfield.

You're quite right, The statement I was referring to was this:

During his first interrogation, Gerald (pag 34) said that at 21:05h, when he went to the apartment to check the children, he entered through the main door; on the second inquisition (pag 891) he rectified and said he entered by the sliding door that leads to the veranda.

-On his first testemony, Gerald said that Kate, at around 22:00h, wento to the apartment and entered through the main door with the key. Immediately after entering noticed that the children’s bedroom door was opened back, the window opened and the shutter lifted (if it had happened that way it wouldn’t be after entering that such a picture would have been noticed. She would have noticed that immediately before entering since she would have pased in front of the window of her children’s bedroom).

-On the second interrogation, Gerald said that Kate had entered through the sliding door.

-On her interrogation (page 58), Kate said that she entered through the sliding door.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html

Kate only said she'd used the sliding door.

I'm glad you noticed that. I would've sworn that they'd both changed their accounts!

It's not the kind of point a case is going to hinge on. At least, not in the real world. Maybe it would be pivotal in a low-budget TV cop show, or in the even less authentic world of Amaral's brain, but not in reality.

Probably a mistranslation, or simply a mis-remembering as a result of the stress of the situation. certainly not worth considering in any detail.

No, it's a tiny little detail, but one that interested me. It's really of no import at all, especially since Carena has pointed out that it didn't actually happen anyway.

As I have said, memories are constructed animals- even recall of recent events are frequently wrong. We are rarely asked to record what we remember and even more rarely do we actually analyse competing alternate descriptions; this is especially so when we are not in our usual setting where we have incredibly complex schemas about how we do anything- opening doors, which doors, what was happening. When doing this in an unknown surrounding, it can be difficult to recall what we did, not through lack of real memory (if we were at home we would 'remember' what our normal schema was and no one would question it) but because we did not yet have a schema. For instance, I know I always enter my house by the back door from habit. If asked how I entered the house two weeks ago, I would say 'back door' almost automatically. If I was on holiday and had been using a variety of ways of moving around an unknown area, I would have no schema to rely on and therefore would be quite likely to plump for the most likely for completely unrelated reasons; if asked again a few weeks later, different extraneous items might cause a different guess. Memory cannot be relied upon!

Thank you for that. I think my own mis remembering of the transcript I read last night, namely believing that they'd both changed their account of which door they'd used, is a nice little example of how unreliable memory can be.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Memory and stress
« Reply #134 on: October 01, 2013, 08:00:07 PM »
An added complication, in my view, is that the PT witness statements were not verbatim, and were the result of attempted communication between the witnesses, whoever could be called upon to help interpret and the officer taking notes.

The statement (or at least notes) were apparently verbally retranslated for them, but what they signed was in Portuguese and I have never seen any indication that they had a written translation which they could read and with which they agreed and had also signed.
Comparing those statements with the verbatim rogatory interviews, what would you observe?