Author Topic: Theory #1  (Read 41493 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2018, 10:38:02 PM »
To cover every eventuality here, i.e to avoid having to fight his way out the burgular would have needed at least two lookouts who were prepared to "come the heavy" if necessary. That is not the MO of your typical burgular [see any insurance company website for burgulars MOs].
I doubt it works at 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W though as that seems to be in a time -space continuum of its own where no known laws of anything can apply; well if you believe this forum it is.
Well it is possible to have lookouts so we can't say it didn't happen.    I can't see how you could claim there weren't lookouts and even if there were they could still be surprised by the pattern of the joint check by Matt and Russell at 9:30 PM.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2018, 10:43:49 PM »
We are trying to link the findings to a theory, so it is all hypothetical.

In my opinion when theory clashes with fact in a sentence it is best to emphasise exactly what is what for the sake of clarity and accuracy.  Your first sentence in the post to which I replied stated, "There has to be some event between Madeleine being woken and her escaping via the front door." is entirely hypothetical and in my opinion that has to be stated somewhere within the post and not only in the thread title.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2018, 10:46:56 PM »
Well it is possible to have lookouts so we can't say it didn't happen.    I can't see how you could claim there weren't lookouts and even if there were they could still be surprised by the pattern of the joint check by Matt and Russell at 9:30 PM.

Hypothetically, why would the lookout/person at patio door enter the apartment if access was to be achieved via the front window?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2018, 10:49:55 PM »
In my opinion when theory clashes with fact in a sentence it is best to emphasise exactly what is what for the sake of clarity and accuracy.  Your first sentence in the post to which I replied stated, "There has to be some event between Madeleine being woken and her escaping via the front door." is entirely hypothetical and in my opinion that has to be stated somewhere within the post and not only in the thread title.
I did edit that post.  I did say " I would not think it likely that Madeleine was aware there was a burglar at the kid's window and then running out the front door since the door and the window are on the same side of the building."  Does the person proposing the theory think Madeleine ran out the door on the same side of the building as the burglar opening the window?  I don't that is why there is theoretically an event which forces the unexpected outcome.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2018, 10:52:20 PM »
Hypothetically, why would the lookout/person at patio door enter the apartment if access was to be achieved via the front window?
You are frustrating me by asking me questions about things I have never said.  I have never said "the lookout/person at patio door enter the apartment".   It was Matt doing his check who entered the apartment.
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Offline misty

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2018, 11:08:38 PM »
You are frustrating me by asking me questions about things I have never said.  I have never said "the lookout/person at patio door enter the apartment".   It was Matt doing his check who entered the apartment.

Yes, sorry. It's the introduction of lookouts & someone/something preventing Madeleine leaving via the patio door which is the issue.

Offline Brietta

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2018, 11:21:29 PM »
I did edit that post.  I did say " I would not think it likely that Madeleine was aware there was a burglar at the kid's window and then running out the front door since the door and the window are on the same side of the building."  Does the person proposing the theory think Madeleine ran out the door on the same side of the building as the burglar opening the window?  I don't that is why there is theoretically an event which forces the unexpected outcome.

If you check back on my post you will see yours that I replied to sans your amendment.  The above post does not alter my perception of your first sentence as problematical; and if you wish the the whole paragraph.
It still reads to me as fact without caveat.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2018, 12:26:14 AM »
Yes, sorry. It's the introduction of lookouts & someone/something preventing Madeleine leaving via the patio door which is the issue.
It is the one thing which distinguishes this theory from others.  Why would Madeleine leave on the same side of the building as the potential burglars are opening the window.  It is not instinctive for animals to do this unless they are cornered.  Try and capture a pig, and when it is cornered it will run right past you. 

It is the flight reaction of a person.  IMO She would not know who was coming and what they were wanting to do, causing her to panic.
That is why IMO "there has to be some event between Madeleine being woken and her escaping via the front door" to make her think the danger is coming from the patio side of the building.
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Offline sadie

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2018, 12:48:04 AM »
I would expect that the parents would have provided a good source for the scent on the basis they would wish the exercise to produce a result, but there is an assumption that the scent source was provided in good faith.

The dogs could not discriminate date/time any scent was laid down. The requirement for bare feet, combined with the known fact that the shoes remained in the apartment, is a pointer that scent could have been laid down at the relevant time. It is not definitive, and it can never be definitive. IMO there is a tendency for parents to put shoes on their children when they leave at normal times. Therefore, there is a pointer, or more accurately a very real possibility that the dogs tracked MBM.

There were three potential exit routes from 5A:

1) Front Door

There is no reported evidence this door was deadlocked. This exit route ties up closest with the scent trail. If the door was confirmed to be deadlocked, and no other exits were available this theory would be disproved, but there are other exits available.

2) Patio Door

The door is accepted by all parties to have been unlocked. IMO MBM could physically open this door. The stair gate would provide an obstruction, but it is possible to climb over the gate. I think the stair gate provides more of an obstruction on any return journey, because of the location at the top of the stairs. If MBM exited via this route she may have found it harder to return.

3) The Window

MBM could open the curtains and window. But, I believe it is unlikely she could raise the shutters. A test of this would have been useful. There was a case in Egypt at another MW resort where a young child 'escaped' from an apartment, which was subjected to 'listening checks'. Presumably this apartment would have had shutters, which were opened by the young child. But, on balance, I believe this exit route to be improbable.

On balance I favour the front door for exit, but the patio door is a viable alternative.

I will provide some views on route and possible accident, or indeed possible abduction, later today.

All IMO. Also, this is not an attempt to discount other theories, such as abduction directly from the apartment.
Please do not forget the patio door in the parents bedroom.

There are FOUR potential exit routes not three


If you had been there as it was in 2007, you would immediately believe that only The Front Door was likely. 

-  The front door was recessed right back and virtually unseen from outside
-  No-one passed it en route to their apartment. 
-  No one passed it at all because the walled passageway ended there .
-  The front door was in almost total darkness,  because the nearest streetlight had its lamp actually within the head of a tree and apart from that there were just a couple of more distant ones that had the entire heads of trees in the way, blocking the light. 
-  There was no moonlight until 10pm, when the moon rose
-  There was no big light on the front of 5A as is shown on more recent photos
-  There was a chest high pathway wall in front of the front door, which any intruder could have bobbed down behind had any one come at all close, say when parking a car almost directly in front of the front door.  Some one parking a car was the only danger, but with that pathway wall an intruder could have easily hidden himself

The recessed front door was hidden from view,  and in blackness

All the other doors were open to view, altho I dont think that the parents bedroom patio doors were illuminated from the street lamp opposite as the main patio was.

Tbh, in my opinion, exiting throught the parents bedroom door would have been safer than using the patio door to the sitting room, cos not only was it not illuminated, but there was alsio a bush in the line of vision of the Tapas group for part of the window


To me, the obvious safe way in and out was via the front door

Offline misty

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2018, 12:50:58 AM »
It is the one thing which distinguishes this theory from others.  Why would Madeleine leave on the same side of the building as the potential burglars are opening the window.  It is not instinctive for animals to do this unless they are cornered.  Try and capture a pig, and when it is cornered it will run right past you. 

It is the flight reaction of a person.  IMO She would not know who was coming and what they were wanting to do, causing her to panic.
That is why IMO "there has to be some event between Madeleine being woken and her escaping via the front door" to make her think the danger is coming from the patio side of the building.

Is a child of almost 4 able to correlate a noise at a window or an opening door with an unseen potential intruder who may wish her harm? That is what would determine flight response.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2018, 02:08:31 AM »
Is a child of almost 4 able to correlate a noise at a window or an opening door with an unseen potential intruder who may wish her harm? That is what would determine flight response.
We only get a couple of glimpses at her behaviour, so I tend to think she was a rather naughty child and had worked out how to evaded.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2018, 02:18:31 AM »
Please do not forget the patio door in the parents bedroom.

There are FOUR potential exit routes not three


If you had been there as it was in 2007, you would immediately believe that only The Front Door was likely. 

-  The front door was recessed right back and virtually unseen from outside
-  No-one passed it en route to their apartment. 
-  No one passed it at all because the walled passageway ended there .
-  The front door was in almost total darkness,  because the nearest streetlight had its lamp actually within the head of a tree and apart from that there were just a couple of more distant ones that had the entire heads of trees in the way, blocking the light. 
-  There was no moonlight until 10pm, when the moon rose
-  There was no big light on the front of 5A as is shown on more recent photos
-  There was a chest high pathway wall in front of the front door, which any intruder could have bobbed down behind had any one come at all close, say when parking a car almost directly in front of the front door.  Some one parking a car was the only danger, but with that pathway wall an intruder could have easily hidden himself

The recessed front door was hidden from view,  and in blackness

All the other doors were open to view, altho I dont think that the parents bedroom patio doors were illuminated from the street lamp opposite as the main patio was.

Tbh, in my opinion, exiting throught the parents bedroom door would have been safer than using the patio door to the sitting room, cos not only was it not illuminated, but there was alsio a bush in the line of vision of the Tapas group for part of the window


To me, the obvious safe way in and out was via the front door
From the OP this theory "In this theory a burglary was commenced, and then aborted when MBM was disturbed, presumably by the noise.
MBM decided to tell her parents. She left by the front door which may be opened by the latch, given there is no evidence the door was deadlocked."

So we should only be considering the exit routes that were available to Madeleine.   How accessible was the parents bedroom window/door?
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Offline misty

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2018, 02:52:10 AM »
We only get a couple of glimpses at her behaviour, so I tend to think she was a rather naughty child and had worked out how to evaded.
I don't understand the last par tof your post, Rob.


http://themaddiecasefiles.com/the-deleted-daily-express-articles-in-chronologica-t247-s20.html
Sat May 26 2007

*snipped*
.......Sitting side by side in an apartment in the complex close to where Madeleine was abducted Mr McCann smiled as he described Madeleine’s personality saying that she was a “ringleader” and had enjoyed her holiday tiring her parents out with a game in which she would shout “Be a monster, be a monster”.

Mrs McCann said, smiling: “She likes talking, she really likes role play.”

------------------------------------------------




How frightened of any potential monster at the window would Madeleine have been? Does Gerry's quote suggest that it was something to be feared?

Offline misty

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2018, 03:22:16 AM »
https://truecrimediva.com/rosa-tapia-murdered-in-1995-case-remains-unsolved/

Whilst young Rosie's body was discovered 2 days later, her murderer has not been caught to date. There are, however, several similarities to Madeleine's case.
This abduction occurred from a ground floor bedroom.
The window(closed but not locked) was found open & the screen missing.
Rosie had been asleep in the room with her 4 year old sister.
The intruder was thought to have entered via the window.
Crime scene was poorly preserved.

As in Madeleine's case, was this a burglary gone wrong, a random abduction or a targeted abduction by someone acquainted with her? How was Rosie taken from the apartment without her sister waking up?


Offline Robittybob1

Re: Theory #1
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2018, 05:11:17 AM »
I don't understand the last par tof your post, Rob.


http://themaddiecasefiles.com/the-deleted-daily-express-articles-in-chronologica-t247-s20.html
Sat May 26 2007

*snipped*
.......Sitting side by side in an apartment in the complex close to where Madeleine was abducted Mr McCann smiled as he described Madeleine’s personality saying that she was a “ringleader” and had enjoyed her holiday tiring her parents out with a game in which she would shout “Be a monster, be a monster”.

Mrs McCann said, smiling: “She likes talking, she really likes role play.”

------------------------------------------------




How frightened of any potential monster at the window would Madeleine have been? Does Gerry's quote suggest that it was something to be feared?
"We only get a couple of glimpses at her behaviour, so I tend to think she was a rather naughty child and had worked out how to evade being caught.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.