Tennis timeline

[G-Unit]

My contention was that deliberate dishonesty on the part of the Paynes was the LEAST LIKELY explanation for the anomalie.  Either you accept that contention or you reject it, which is it?

Do you have a cite for the PJ’s proposed reconstruction commencing at 5.30pm?

Finally, plenty of scope for error as far as DP’s written answers as relayed by DC Marshall are concerned then by the time they end up as translated from English into Portuguese and back again I would say.

I need to say it again? OK here it is, louder; I'M NOT INTERESTED IN SPECULATING AS TO WHY SOME OF THE EVIDENCE WAS WRONG.

The reconstruction in which the persons referred to previously would participate, as well as incidentally any other protagonist whose presence may be necessary in order to visualise the events, would take place between 17.30 and 23.00 on the 15th
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm

If you wish to reject Marshall's evidence feel free. I haven't.

[Robittybob1]

Fiona initially placed her husband on the tennis courts between 6.30 and 7 pm. Whatever the reason was, the effect was to provide an alibi for him during that time.

How could he have hidden what he did? Gerry had already told the PJ about it.

I was interested in what DC Marshall had to say after reading the Payne's questionnaires. According to him, DP was in 5A at 5 pm, along with Madeleine and her parents.

In my opinion you have a very fertile imagination if you think these anomalies are suggestive of a plot. Please note that is your conclusion, not mine.

All I know, and have demonstrated, is that Fiona got it wrong and when asked a vert specific question she admitted that her evidence was wrong.

1485
 'Although you can't say one hundred percent, can you, if he was on the tennis court between six and seven, can you''
 Reply
 'No'.
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Did you really mean to write "According to him, DP was in 5A at 5 pm, along with Madeleine and her parents"?  I thought Madeleine was still in creche at that time?  If not cite please.

[Robittybob1]

I never suggested the Paynes tried to hide the truth, I think that suggestion was from you.

How do you misinterpret the written answer to a questionnaire? Apart from the fact that DP never said he saw MM at 7 pm.

It might have been from me re "I never suggested the Paynes tried to hide the truth".

[Robittybob1]

In my opinion you need to stop twisting what I say to fit your agenda. I didn't reject your contention, I said it was possible. It's you who think you know why Fiona's evidence was wrong, not me.

I researched the tennis timeline because the reconstitution by the PJ was planned to run from 5.30 pm, when MM was seen by an unconnected witness. I found that Fiona and Dianne's version was impossible according to the Paraiso CCTV and the evidence of the others.

The document read by DC Marshall isn't available to us, so my source document is his evidence.

So what exactly did "DC Marshall" say?

[Vertigo Swirl]

My contention was that deliberate dishonesty on the part of the Paynes was the LEAST LIKELY explanation for the anomalie.  Either you accept that contention or you reject it, which is it?

Do you have a cite for the PJ’s proposed reconstruction commencing at 5.30pm?

Finally, plenty of scope for error as far as DP’s written answers as relayed by DC Marshall are concerned then by the time they end up as translated from English into Portuguese and back again I would say.

I need to say it again? OK here it is, louder; I'M NOT INTERESTED IN SPECULATING AS TO WHY SOME OF THE EVIDENCE WAS WRONG.

The reconstruction in which the persons referred to previously would participate, as well as incidentally any other protagonist whose presence may be necessary in order to visualise the events, would take place between 17.30 and 23.00 on the 15th
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm

If you wish to reject Marshall's evidence feel free. I haven't.

First you say you are not rejecting my contention and that I have twisted your words and now you are refusing to reject or accept my contention.  In future please do not falsely accuse me of twisting your words to fit an agenda, it’s rude.  We all know some, even alot of the eyewitness evidence was wrong - SO WHAT??? 

[Vertigo Swirl]

So what exactly did "DC Marshall" say?

Whatever he said was translated into Portuguese and then back into English.  He claims DP claims he went to Kate’s apartment and saw the kids at 5pm, ie before the kids were last seen by an independent witness at 5.30pm.  Anyone with a brain can see that this is a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to deceive but apparently it needs to be highlighted in the name of research, why god only knows.

[Robittybob1]

Whatever he said was translated into Portuguese and then back into English.  He claims DP claims he went to Kate’s apartment and saw the kids at 5pm, ie before the kids were last seen by an independent witness at 5.30pm.  Anyone with a brain can see that this is a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to deceive but apparently it needs to be highlighted in the name of research, why god only knows.

I would like to see the actual text if possible.  I see there is some discussion about the letter at this site:
http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t18646-foi-answer-from-leicestershire-police

"On October 24, 2007, DC Mike Marshall emailed Ricardo Paiva in Portugal with details of a witness statement he took from David and Fiona Payne. This 2-page letter was the frontispiece to 2 witness statements made by the Gaspars on May 16, 2007. In the 2-page letter, DC Marshall mentions a time (17H00) as it being the time that David Payne went to apartment 5A.

Was this time of 17H00 correct or was it a mistake and should it be 19H00? "

It appears to be an error for Kate was running and Gerry playing tennis and Madeleine at the creche at around that time.

[Robittybob1]

Found the file reference to the email to Paiva

"Vol. XIII, Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricard Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann’s apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with “they conform to my earlier deposition” or some similar statement. ...."
from https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2009/04/david-payne-may-hold-key-to-maddies.html

Same document can be found in the file.

[Carana]

Well this is what FP says in her rogatory interview:
"'Erm, and then I remember it getting to tennis time, because it was men's tennis that night and the men had all rearranged the time to suit us and it was getting towards six o'clock and, you know, they were going to be late, so I remember saying 'Look, you better go because it's not fair, you've moved the time then you'll be late'. Erm, so I think that, that was sort of approaching five to six. And we were toying with the idea of getting the kids ice creams for pudding and then thought oh we probably don't have time, but then we decided well, you know, why don't you go off and go to your tennis and we'll just give them their ice cream and follow on. And so I think they left probably about, you know, that being Matt and Dave and Russell, around five to six, six o'clock time. And the, you know, the wives stayed behind with the kids, they had ice cream and then we followed on about ten past six and we just walked back up to, to watch them play a bit of tennis and give the kids, you know, a little playtime. Erm, and I don't think we stayed there that long that night because the kids were pretty, pretty tired. Erm, I'm trying to think, I'd say probably by seven o'clock we were, me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. Erm, and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. Erm, I think we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten minutes later. Erm, and then I went for a run that night, after the kids were bathed'."

Well that does sound like he was playing tennis at the time FP and DW left around 7:00 PM. That mention in that passage is the only time she mentions DP being there.

Fiona's recollection of when the boys actually left the Paraiso seems a bit out, as - assuming that is indeed Dave in this CCTV still, they were still there at 18:13:53.

Depending on how long they stood around still chatting before actually walking out, that could have been another few minutes before they actually set off.

[Carana]

She also said in her rog;

"I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour."

That statement is wrong. The women were still at the Paraiso at 6.36 and Kate says in her book that David went to see her at 6.40.

Who do you mean by the "women"? I can only see what looks like FP and DW in the CCTV still at 18:36.

[G-Unit]

Who do you mean by the "women"? I can only see what looks like FP and DW in the CCTV still at 18:36.

I see Jane bending down and they all said they returned together anyway.

[Carana]

After her husband arrived at the apartment Fiona went for a run.

They arrived there around 15H45 and left at 18H15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19H00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20H00.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm

I wonder what this was about?

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

Re the first cited statement: "They arrived there around 15H45 and left at 18H15" Who's "they", as in who left when? The men do appear to have left at that time. ETA: Or rather were still there at 18:53.

Re the second, concerning the email from DC Mike Marshall. Consider it an "IMO" as I can't lay my hands on the document for the moment, but I'm 95% sure what he was referring to.

There was a statement floating around from Fiona. What I'm not sure of now is whether that ever made it into the files, or was a leak floating around the Internet at the time. If it's in the files, I can't find it again.

When I went through it, I noticed that part of it appeared to be in good English, and then the English seemed to suddenly change. My conclusion was that what DC Marshall read is probably the document that I'd read and that it was a draft of a partially language-edited version of her PT statement (bits of it were more Googlish).

[Carana]

I see Jane bending down and they all said they returned together anyway.

I can't see who's bending down, that could indeed be Jane. I don't see Rachel and not many kids. Some may have popped off to pay / go the loo or whatever and weren't in the CCTV snap. Or didn't all walk out at precisely the same minute.

[Carana]

Fiona initially placed her husband on the tennis courts between 6.30 and 7 pm. Whatever the reason was, the effect was to provide an alibi for him during that time.

How could he have hidden what he did? Gerry had already told the PJ about it.

I was interested in what DC Marshall had to say after reading the Payne's questionnaires. According to him, DP was in 5A at 5 pm, along with Madeleine and her parents.

In my opinion you have a very fertile imagination if you think these anomalies are suggestive of a plot. Please note that is your conclusion, not mine.

All I know, and have demonstrated, is that Fiona got it wrong and when asked a vert specific question she admitted that her evidence was wrong.

1485
 'Although you can't say one hundred percent, can you, if he was on the tennis court between six and seven, can you''
 Reply
 'No'.
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

I don't find the DC's question that clear. "Between 6 and 7" - does that mean from 6 to 7, or within that time frame?

[G-Unit]

I don't find the DC's question that clear. "Between 6 and 7" - does that mean from 6 to 7, or within that time frame?

At any time between 6 and 7 imo.