Evidence of a kitchen fight:

[Alice]

There's no evidence NB's soles were dirty or injured so would SC's be dirty and injured?

Maybe because she'd allegedly been in a life or death scuffle with Nevill in your scenario. In mine where she is innocent there is no reason on earth for her to have dirty or injured feet. Are you contradicting yourself?

[Caroline]

Where would any dirt particles originate from?  The pathologist didn't note any dirt articles to NB's feet.

If blood transferred from the main bedroom carpet to SC's feet then why was none found on the back of her nightdress?

Why would they need to note dirt to Nevill's feet? There was no question about him being in the kitchen but for Sheila to have killed him, she would have had to be there too!

Because she didn't crawl across the carpet on her back.

[Holly Goodhead]

Maybe because she'd allegedly been in a life or death scuffle with Nevill in your scenario. In mine where she is innocent there is no reason on earth for her to have dirty or injured feet. Are you contradicting yourself?

NB was not capable of entering into a life and death struggle with anyone so no I'm not contradicting myself.  I thought in your scenario NB entered into a violent struggle with JB fighting over the rifle with the silencer scratching the mantle in the process?  Why then would NB's soles be free of dirt, damage, shards of glass and sugar (your scenario) but not SC's (my scenario)?   

[Holly Goodhead]

Why would they need to note dirt to Nevill's feet? There was no question about him being in the kitchen but for Sheila to have killed him, she would have had to be there too!

The pathologist noted all manner of incidentals therefore if NB sustained debris and damage to his feet why would this go unnoticed and omitted from the autopsy? 

I say there was no violent struggle between NB and SC as NB was incapacitated upstairs.  Those that believe JB guilty argue there was a violent struggle and had SC been responsible she would have sustained debris and damage to her feet so why would NB avoid?

Because she didn't crawl across the carpet on her back.

If the image purported to be SC's foot is authentic IMO the marks are associated with biological changes post death.  The argument they are blood stains doesn't stack up in that whether JB marched SC there or she went of her own volition she walked in an area of carpet heavily blood stained.  According to Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight she was most likely sitting on the floor and then fell backwards.  So if blood was capable of transferring from the carpet to her feet then why wouldn't it transfer to her seat/back of nightdress?  No blood stains were found on the back of her nightdress but I'm sure this will be another conspiracy theory in the making 

[Caroline]

The pathologist noted all manner of incidentals therefore if NB sustained debris and damage to his feet why would this go unnoticed and omitted from the autopsy? 

I say there was no violent struggle between NB and SC as NB was incapacitated upstairs.  Those that believe JB guilty argue there was a violent struggle and had SC been responsible she would have sustained debris and damage to her feet so why would NB avoid?

If the image purported to be SC's foot is authentic IMO the marks are associated with biological changes post death.  The argument they are blood stains doesn't stack up in that whether JB marched SC there or she went of her own volition she walked in an area of carpet heavily blood stained.  According to Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight she was most likely sitting on the floor and then fell backwards.  So if blood was capable of transferring from the carpet to her feet then why wouldn't it transfer to her seat/back of nightdress?  No blood stains were found on the back of her nightdress but I'm sure this will be another conspiracy theory in the making 

Where did I mention 'damage' - having grubby feet as far as he was concerned wouldn't have warranted a mention.

I don't believe there was a violent struggle either, I think Jeremy incapacitated Nevil, beat the crap out of him and smashed  afew thugs up etc.

I didn't say the marks came from blood, I said 'could have' and also stated that they could have been from discolouration after death.

[Holly Goodhead]

Where did I mention 'damage' - having grubby feet as far as he was concerned wouldn't have warranted a mention.

I don't believe there was a violent struggle either, I think Jeremy incapacitated Nevil, beat the crap out of him and smashed  afew thugs up etc.

I didn't say the marks came from blood, I said 'could have' and also stated that they could have been from discolouration after death.

Sorry the post wasn't specifically in response to yours.  I was covering off general claims of damage and debris from various sources.

The pathological evidence re non-gsw's doesn't support NB having the crap beaten out of him. 

[Caroline]

Sorry the post wasn't specifically in response to yours.  I was covering off general claims of damage and debris from various sources.

The pathological evidence re non-gsw's doesn't support NB having the crap beaten out of him.

His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.

[Holly Goodhead]

His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.

Yes the stock was found broken but there's no forensic or pathological evidence to show how this came about or the force required.  

[adam]

His head was battered hard enough to break the rifle. He certainly wasn't tickled with a feather (although one was present). I believe Bamber broke the light and left the kitchen in disarray.

Why would Bamber smash the ceiling light & leave the kitchen in disarray ?

He didn't need to leave evidence there had been a kitchen fight. A brutally beaten Nevill was there.

[adam]

Yes the stock was found broken but there's no forensic or pathological evidence to show how this came about or the force required. 

Nevill's forearms, wrists and head were hit very hard by Bamber. Resulting in Nevill's watch breaking and falling off & a lot bruising and lacerations. The stock would have fallen off during this period.

[adam]

David created a thread saying 'I am in the process of creating a 3D reconstruction of the Kitchen. Its almost done'.

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This would have been interesting & maybe beneficial.

It was never posted. I did chase him up but he said he had 'never promised' this. 

'

[adam]

You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre.  WHF was not very clean.

Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.

Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.

[adam]

Injuries to Sheila's feet are less likely. She would know where everything was at WHF. So unlikely to kick, stand on or have anything fall on her feet to cause injuries. 

However supporters do claim that a bit of Sheila's toe nail varnish somehow fell off her toe during the kitchen fight. And landed underneath the aga scratch's !

[Holly Goodhead]

Nevill's forearms, wrists and head were hit very hard by Bamber. Resulting in Nevill's watch breaking and falling off & a lot bruising and lacerations. The stock would have fallen off during this period.

The pathologist was unable to gauge the force used in NB's non-gsw's other than one which he described as "considerable force" albeit this only resulted in a laceration.  Perhaps indicative of a female perp.  Had JB been responsible I think we would have seen more broken bones.

Most people wear a watch on the left wrist.  NB's left arm did not sustain any non-gsw's.  My day watch is bracelet style and if caught by accident can come undone.  I recall an embarrassing moment when I was checking into a hotel and determined I would take a mountain of luggage on one trip from car to lobby.  I had a large tote bag, med size holdall, sports holdall and lap top bag.  It was wet outside and leaves blowing into lobby which I must have slipped on!  I went from upright on 2 feet to skidding across the lobby on my stomach.  Luggage went everywhere and watch must have come undone, bypassed whatever clothes and outwear I had on and skidded the other side of lobby!   Anyway the watch may simply have been knocked off the table. 

[Holly Goodhead]

You would expect Sheila to definately have dirty feet. She had walked around WHF for a long period. Before, during & after the massacre.  WHF was not very clean.

Blood on her feet would also be likely. There was blood on the kitchen & main bedroom floor. Sheila returned to the main bedroom to shoot June again & shoot herself. She also returned to the kitchen to chamber, breach & reload as well as burn Nevill's back.

Sugar on her feet is less likely. Wet blood on her feet may have helped sugar stick on her feet. However it is likely to fall off as she walked upstairs.

There's no evidence WHF was dirty.  WHF was a working farm and the kitchen indicative of a farming couple in their 60's during the mid 80's.  The place looks somewhat untidy by today's minimalist style but there's no evidence the floors were dirty. By comparison the cops involved in the Bain case describe the place as an absolute pig style with bad smells etc. I appreciate the stairs closed off near the welsh dresser appear to show damp and dirty cleaning cloths but this wasn't used and noone expected it to enter the public domain.