Is This True? ""partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom"?

[Robittybob1]

Oh yes, sorry, I got my dates mixed up.

So do you have any inkling that the story was well known before the 13th Oct 2007? 

I assume if the story was withheld for operational purposes the PJ knew but were keeping it under wraps.
The McCann response on the 15th sounds like they were familiar with the shoe prints being found, but denied that they had been compared to each other. 

I can see no reason why Kate's shoe print couldn't be found on the bumper of their hire car.  There is no crime in that.

[John]

So do you have any inkling that the story was well known before the 13th Oct 2007? 

I assume if the story was withheld for operational purposes the PJ knew but were keeping it under wraps.
The McCann response on the 15th sounds like they were familiar with the shoe prints being found, but denied that they had been compared to each other. 

I can see no reason why Kate's shoe print couldn't be found on the bumper of their hire car.  There is no crime in that.

Is there any evidence that the shoeprint story was true, smoke and fire and all that?

[Robittybob1]

Is there any evidence that the shoeprint story was true, smoke and fire and all that?

The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham.  That is real evidence to me.
No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.

I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html
"A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.

"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?

[G-Unit]

The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham.  That is real evidence to me.
No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.

I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html
"A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.

"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?

The Mail on Sunday appears to be the source of the story, but whatever they wrote seems to no longer be available.

[John]

The papers claim to have seen the report on the blood analysis from the shoe print performed by FSS in Birmingham.  That is real evidence to me.
No one has ever denied there was a bloodied shoe print found in the apartment.

I wonder if the Standard doesn't have a copy of the report, can someone over there make enquires please?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html
"A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.

"The Mail on Sunday" is that a newspaper?

It's the Sunday version of the Daily Mail.

[Brietta]

- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED -
On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2315
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found

Photos 26 and 27: Displays of the floor area of the bedroom from where the minor disappeared from where were collected hairs referenced as trace evidence #1.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- CONCLUSIONS -
[The indented paragraphs are repeats of the detailed collections and recoveries described in the body of the report.]
The trace evidence described before and referenced as #1 to #7 were delivered to the Lisbon Office of the National Institute of Legal Medicine, under cover of delivery note #156/2007-CR/L a copy of which is attached, for further laboratory examination.

Lisbon, 3 July 2007

J P Cardoso, F Viegas

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm



Seriously ... I really do not think that this Portuguese forensic team overlooked any fresh blood traces at this location.  I think there was none there to be found.

[Robittybob1]

It's the Sunday version of the Daily Mail.

I wonder if you could ask them to validate their story?

[Robittybob1]

- OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED -
On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.There follow photograph displays of the exterior of the apartment to be examined as well as detail of the entrance thereto.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2315
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found

Photos 26 and 27: Displays of the floor area of the bedroom from where the minor disappeared from where were collected hairs referenced as trace evidence #1.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- CONCLUSIONS -
[The indented paragraphs are repeats of the detailed collections and recoveries described in the body of the report.]
The trace evidence described before and referenced as #1 to #7 were delivered to the Lisbon Office of the National Institute of Legal Medicine, under cover of delivery note #156/2007-CR/L a copy of which is attached, for further laboratory examination.

Lisbon, 3 July 2007

J P Cardoso, F Viegas

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm



Seriously ... I really do not think that this Portuguese forensic team overlooked any fresh blood traces at this location.  I think there was none there to be found.

OK but this sentence allows for other findings.  "There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found"

Like do they tell us the total number of samples submitted?

[Robittybob1]

Remember this print did not require any special techniques to be seen.  They say it was visible to the naked eye.

[Robittybob1]

Copy of email to the Evening Standard

Dear  Mark Wilkinson

My inquiry relates to the news article found at this link https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-bloody-footprint-found-in-mccanns-apartment-6642364.html

I am Robert de Boer a researcher into the McCann case, and also a moderator on the UK Justice Forum.

I started a thread on the forum  on the 5th of August regarding  "the evidence of a "partial footwear mark" found just outside Madeleine's bedroom which had traces of blood in it visible to the naked eye, according to a forensics report."

It took me to the above linked article that appeared in the Standard on the 13th Oct 2007.

In that article it states: " A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday. "

Do you have any confirmation of the truthfulness of that statement?  Did the reporter (name unknown) actually confirm the existence of the forensic report?

If it was possible could you email a copy of that report to me please?

[Brietta]

Remember this print did not require any special techniques to be seen.  They say it was visible to the naked eye.

If it had been there ... the forensic team would have photographed it and taken samples from it for analysis.  They checked for the presence of blood ... they would not have ignored something as obvious as a bloody footprint.

[Robittybob1]

If it had been there ... the forensic team would have photographed it and taken samples from it for analysis.  They checked for the presence of blood ... they would not have ignored something as obvious as a bloody footprint.

I'm thinking they didn't ignore it, but kept it secret for investigation purposes and sent it to the FSS but it came back with a less than satisfactory DNA result (according to the newspaper reports) for the purposes of charging anyone.

"A swab for blood from this mark has been examined but it proved inconclusive.'

This is the first time that forensic evidence relating to the case has been presented in such detail.

Sources have told this newspaper that the sample taken from the apartment was not of good quality. Other partial prints were underneath it and it had been walked over countless times."

So it sounds like a mixed DNA result but apparently some of the alleles did match Madeleine's.

This bit also is clear "Blood in the footprint at the apartment was tested for DNA. Results are rated on an eight-point scale: no scientific evidence, limited, moderate, moderately strong, strong, very strong, extremely strong and conclusive.

Scientists found there was only 'moderate' support, number 3 on the scale, to suggest it matched Madeleine's DNA." 

It gave moderate support it was Madeleine's blood.  I suppose that wasn't enough evidence, but the sole pattern of the shoe would still hold evidence. 
A shoe size 5 or 6 with a definite sole pattern.   I would say all the shoes the McCann's owned would have been looked at. 
So I'm tending to think it was on someone else's footwear. but they too had been in the apartment. 

It has probably got no connection to the person committing a crime, but shows a transference of the blood from somewhere outside to inside the apartment.

[kizzy]

I can think of a few reasons that I'm not willing to write down.  Why do you think he felt that way?

Imo he thinks there is more to the results than what we are told.


The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.
Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance.



We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.




On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARALS_BOOK_ENGLISH.htm#abc19

[Brietta]

Imo he thinks there is more to the results than what we are told.


The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.
Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance.



We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.




On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARALS_BOOK_ENGLISH.htm#abc19

The FSS had nothing to do with the initial forensic examination of the apartment and therefore has no locus on this thread ... please bear that in mind when posting what is basically off topic material.  Thank you

[kizzy]

The FSS had nothing to do with the initial forensic examination of the apartment and therefore has no locus on this thread ... please bear that in mind when posting what is basically off topic material.  Thank you

Actually - i was answering a mods question to me.