Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates

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Ian Kelcey, senior partner at Bristol firm Kelcey & Hall and Law Society council member said: ‘It’s a myth that clients get the same level of service on legal aid rates as when they pay privately - that disappeared about 10 years ago.’

It's a myth??? These are peoples lives you are dealing with!!!

Well.... there's always something to make you smile.... Just sitting there feeling that everything will be done for your case if.......... You're Rich!!!!!!

Prosecution:... 15
Defence:........ love..

Speaking at the Law Society’s criminal law conference, Kelcey said there is a limit to what firms can be expected to do on legal aid rates: ‘We can’t supply a platinum level of service with base metal rates of pay.’

There's an admission if ever I heard one...

So Dr Vincent Tabak must have received a base metal service!!!! (IMO) ( he had legal aid)

Didn't even manage the bronze standard...  So... how much Investigation took place to prove the Timelines???
To prove she had changed her clothes..??
A demonstration to see if it was possible....??
Witness's for the defence
Good Character witness's
Cross examination of the prosecution??
The hundred questions??

OMG... the list is endless......

What does a Base metal service actually pay for???????  WOW... maybe lawyers should produce a pamphlet on what one gets for a Base Metal Service

Starting rates: Two beads, I will answer the telephone
                      Three Beads,  I will say hello
                     
                      A shell will get you a response within 3 days excluding weekends/bank holidays
                      But if you chuck in a couple of groats I might arrange a meeting

                      And our deluxe offer of the week, because we're having a Bonanza sale:

                      For a lump of iron ore and my washing done for a month, I'll meet you in person....
                      I might not stay long, but at least you'll have seen me in person...
                      And a free toilet roll is also included in the service... (Do with it as you will)


The defence didn't like their client... So definatley A Base Metal Service there!!!!!!!!!  (IMO)


If they didn't have the resources (platinum) to cross reference and check everything...Is this why they advised Dr Vincent Tabak to enter the plea?????

With the prosecution telling them about the confession to the chaplain, the sobbing girl and no independant analysis of Dr Vincent Tabka's computers... Did the defence just believe what the prosecution said???

He suggested that firms be open with clients about how much the government pays and explain the constraints this puts on them.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they try an explain that one..... ' Sorry mate'... I nearly came to a conclusion, but I ran out of money for you... .... (this is where your free Toilet roll might come in handy)

It's quite a worrying state of affairs..
Lord have mercy..... The man stood No Chance!!!!

Game set and Match to the Prosecution , before we have even had a trial (IMO)!!

All might be fair in love and war..... But Justice?????? only if you can pay for it!!!!!

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/legal-aid-equality-a-myth-says-solicitor-advocate-kelcey/65516.article

[mrswah]

We shouldn't Mrswah....  And the fact that the Guilty Plea was so public before the Trial in October would already put in the minds of a jury that they didn't really need to take much heed to what was being said..

How much did these Jury members read before the trial??? where they on any forums in relation to the case???

How unbiased were they???? 

Ordinarily most jurors would not have an incline of a case... but as this one had so much publicity, they couldn't fail to have preconceived ideas about it...

Everything to do with Dr Vincent Tabak and his incarcaration at the time, was timed to perfection with whatever was happening with Joanna Yeates... IE:... her burial , which coincidentally was when Dr Vincent Tabak first recieved visiting from family and girlfriend...

With a public having sympathy for the family and their tragedy..( which is only natural).. It would then lend to why people wouldn't give two figs about whether Dr Vincent Tabak had any fair treatment by this point...

Lets not forget, the sobbing girl story that probably lead to everyones imagination running wild, thinking that they must have something on Dr Vincent Tabak or they wouldn't have charged him.... (so sympathy for him at this point was ZERO..) No proof in that pudding!!!!

They had nothing , but held him on some cock and bull story (IMO)...

It is likely that at least some of the jurors were discussing the case on fora, and most of them would have been reading about it-----they were local people, after all.

It is also possible that one or two are reading this thread---------you just never know!

[mrswah]

The clothes she was obviously found in differ greatly to what she was last seen wearing...

I know we have discussed this, but can we be sure this is the case???

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It is likely that at least some of the jurors were discussing the case on fora, and most of them would have been reading about it-----they were local people, after all.

It is also possible that one or two are reading this thread---------you just never know!

It is possible that one or two are reading this thread... maybe they could contribute and settle various questions..

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I know we have discussed this, but can we be sure this is the case???

We cannot be 100% sure mrswah... but with the court drawings and the description of what she was found in, we can make an informed judgement.

Why did they not say on the missing posters what she was wearing, if they knew? It's common practice to describe what they were last seen wearing....

And I believe on the photo's I posted you can just make out her dark looking top.. (I could be wrong on that one)..

The court artist should at least get the colour of something correct... She/he  drew...  blue jeans... And on the helpfinjo word press, they describe her wearing grey jeans.. A different clothing item..

Why wouldn't the police give a clothing description when she originally disappeared...??? Only because they didn't know... Greg says he was tidying up to see what she might be wearing.. He knows what she wore when he last saw her... To me that statement suggest her clothing she wore on the Friday were still in the flat...

[mrswah]

It is possible that one or two are reading this thread... maybe they could contribute and settle various questions..

Possibly they are not allowed to----not sure !

[Leonora]

It's a myth??? These are peoples lives you are dealing with!!!

Well.... there's always something to make you smile.... Just sitting there feeling that everything will be done for your case if.......... You're Rich!!!!!!

Prosecution:... 15
Defence:........ love..

There's an admission if ever I heard one...

So Dr Vincent Tabak must have received a base metal service!!!! (IMO) ( he had legal aid)

It hardly seems fair to pour cold water on such an eloquent post, but...
Legal Services Commission FoI, 17th July 2012:
The LSC paid a total of £161,410.49 to Kelcey & Hall in relation to Vincent Tabak’s trial at the Crown Court. This can be broken down as £146,620.18 in litigation fees and £14,790.31 in disbursement costs. The LSC also paid £84,671.14 in advocacy costs.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/234938/Joanna-Yeates-killer-s-500k-in-legal-aid

As one of Bristol's leading solicitors, Ian Kelcey is hardly unbiased when he pronounces on the subject legal aid. He is also an influential member of the Criminal Law Committee of the Law Society.

It wasn't shortage of funds that influenced the astonishing shortcomings of Vincent Tabak's defence. If the team wanted to save money, Counsel could have kept silent instead of cross-examining the "chaplain". That would have made the Prosecution look very silly! Instead of questioning the Prosecution's DNA expert witness in such a way as to show the jury how clever she was, Counsel could have asked her the same critical questions as he had asked her colleagues when he had successfully got a previous client acquitted on appeal after his conviction for the assassination of a TV presenter. Re-using his old Q&A list wouldn't have cost anything either.

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Base Metal Service:....

That keeps going around my head....

Seriously, I didn't think they would behave in such a way... I maybe have stumbled upon the reason Dr Vincent Tabak made his plea at The Old Bailey!!

American courts and prosecutions are full of deals that they make, they believe probably foolishly that it's the best outcome for their client, even if they may be innocent...

The death penalty on the table is a very persuasive tool...

So.... I'm extremely curious... what level of service and investigation did Dr Vincent Tabak recieve???

Base Metal sounds cheap and nasty... Did they just scan over what the original Defence team found and think.. ok.. we're not gonna win this one... lets go for a plea and see where that gets us...

Manslaughter is the cheaper option??????

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It hardly seems fair to pour cold water on such an eloquent post, but...
Legal Services Commission FoI, 17th July 2012:
The LSC paid a total of £161,410.49 to Kelcey & Hall in relation to Vincent Tabak’s trial at the Crown Court. This can be broken down as £146,620.18 in litigation fees and £14,790.31 in disbursement costs. The LSC also paid £84,671.14 in advocacy costs.

May sound a lot Leonora... but they spent Millions on the case... So  £146,620.18 isn't really a great deal of money when you think about it...

How many people does that cover????  what rates do they charge ???

And in kelcey's own words... Base metal service!!!!

 £146,620.18 - 6 months ..(May to Oct)... 6 months X 30 days = 180 days ....   £146,620.18 divided by 180 days = £814 a day

Doesn't seem a great deal really does it!!


EDIT:.....
4 months = 120 days   X £814 = £97,680...  Thats how much I would have earned at that rate on my tod doing searches etc and looking at what was available on the internet...

Now if I had the 1300 page document to go through.... How many days do you believe that would take to cross reference and and what cost?????

[Leonora]

We cannot be 100% sure mrswah... but with the court drawings and the description of what she was found in, we can make an informed judgement.

Why did they not say on the missing posters what she was wearing, if they knew? It's common practice to describe what they were last seen wearing....

And I believe on the photo's I posted you can just make out her dark looking top.. (I could be wrong on that one)..

The court artist should at least get the colour of something correct... She/he  drew...  blue jeans... And on the helpfinjo word press, they describe her wearing grey jeans.. A different clothing item..

Why wouldn't the police give a clothing description when she originally disappeared...??? Only because they didn't know... Greg says he was tidying up to see what she might be wearing.. He knows what she wore when he last saw her... To me that statement suggest her clothing she wore on the Friday were still in the flat...

Don't forget the ski sock! Why on earth would Joanna have been wearing ski socks on a day when she was going to be indoors nearly all day and, furthermore, in a warm crowded pub for 2 hours?

It's the removal of the colour component from the CCTV clips in the Bristol Ram that proves that the Prosecution didn't want anyone to see the colour of the clothes she was wearing. We can be sure that originally these CCTV clips were in colour. Just as we can sure there were timestamps on the Asda clips - and that these have been deliberately made illegible.

[ speculation removed ]

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Don't forget the ski sock! Why on earth would Joanna have been wearing ski socks on a day when she was going to be indoors nearly all day and, furthermore, in a warm crowded pub for 2 hours?

It's the removal of the colour component from the CCTV clips in the Bristol Ram that proves that the Prosecution didn't want anyone to see the colour of the clothes she was wearing. We can be sure that originally these CCTV clips were in colour. Just as we can sure there were timestamps on the Asda clips - and that these have been deliberately made illegible.

To me it look more like it is a Black and White CCTV Video.. with a colour hew added!!

[Leonora]

May sound a lot Leonora... but they spent Millions on the case... So  £146,620.18 isn't really a great deal of money when you think about it...

How many people does that cover????  what rates do they charge ???

And in kelcey's own words... Base metal service!!!!

 £146,620.18 - 6 months ..(May to Oct)... 6 months X 30 days = 180 days ....   £146,620.18 divided by 180 days = £814 a day

Doesn't seem a great deal really does it!!


EDIT:.....
4 months = 120 days   X £814 = £97,680...  Thats how much I would have earned at that rate on my tod doing searches etc and looking at what was available on the internet...

Now if I had the 1300 page document to go through.... How many days do you believe that would take to cross reference and and what cost?????

Well if it were up to Joanna's parents, all of his legal bill should have been footed by Vincent Tabak's family!

‘It’s ridiculous he should get that level of legal aid,’ her father David, 63, said yesterday. ‘He comes from a wealthy background and he showed contempt to the court, to us, to his girlfriend and her family.
‘He should never have received taxpayers’ money to defend himself.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2100235/Jo-Yeates-murder-Her-parents-hit-killer-Vincent-Tabaks-legal-aid-cost-taxpayers-hundreds-thousands.html

Some of the comments at the foot of this article are, er, instructive. My respect for Joanna's parents is influenced by their lack of consideration for the Tabak family, who have lost a son/brother through no fault of their own.

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Britain's top lawyers charge staggering £5,000 per hour

See.... now we can see where it goes.....

£146, 620 divided by £5000 = 29. 324  hours.... not days...

How much do they charge an hour??????

And clients hoping to save millions on their tax bills are now ready to pay as much as £50,000 for a day in conference with an expert barrister - although the fee involves advance preparation by the lawyer as well as his day's work.

So at £50,000 a day 180 days = 9 million

The disclosure that lawyers' fees are reaching unprecedented new heights comes in the wake of promises from ministers to end the scale of state payments that have meant barristers can earn £1 million in a year from legal aid.

So the figures quoted for Dr Vincent Tabak are really a poultry sum!!!! (IMO)

Even the most junior commercial barristers can expect to be paid at up to £125 an hour.

Say 8hrs a day x 180 days = £180,000  And thats for a JUNIOR!!!
For a 6.5 hr day a Junior might just be able to charge... £146,620


EDIT:... The point I'm making really, Is what did the charges actually pay for, what was the rate of pay?? and what amount of time was put in to look into Dr Vincent Tabak's case?????




 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401488/Britains-lawyers-charge-staggering-5-000-hour.html#ixzz4aRIAY9yJ

[jixy]

There is more weight to the people who believe in his guilt as Tabak too says exactly the same! no conspiracy theories offered nothing

Anyone who has to start making digs at how the family of a murdered young girl would or should react to the conviction and who should or shouldn't pay shows what dodgy ground you are on!

They are entitled to hold whatever belief they want as he had NO right to end their Daughter's life. His sorry at a time when he faced a life sentence may well have been genuine but would not have offered any comfort whatsoever

Seeing the changes in funding since this happened, the family are not alone in their thoughts about who should pay!

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I try to stay away from the family as much as possible... I believe it's not fair to make judgements on people who have lost a loved one in tragic circumstances..

It was reported at one stage that they wished the death penalty was available..

Now I personally am against the death penalty... But I can understand the families wishes with the loss and heartache that they felt and still feel...

Again.. If Dr Vincent Tabak is Innocent as I believe, then such an action could never be rectified....