Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844861 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4965 on: September 02, 2015, 11:30:37 AM »
It may have dawned on Harrison that the PJ were placing too much store on the mere fact that the dogs alerted.

If he'd followed the news at all, the PJ were dropping the hint that she may have died in the apartment as early as 4 August and that the parents / T9 would have known so as of 5 August.


in Sol on August 4, 2007:

a report by Felicia Cabrita with Margarida Davim


Looking for Maddie’s body

(...)

Sol could find out that the English dogs are trained for different tasks. One, to detect human remains originating from dead flesh, and the other one to detect human blood or fluids. A specialist that was contacted by Sol explains that the technique of these animals rests on scientific bases, and that while “one of the dogs can distinguish between natural death or death by accident that does not involve bloodshed, the other one can diagnose whether someone died a violent death, with bloodshed or other spilled fluids”.

Tuesday night, a black and white springer spaniel that is trained to detect death, spent several hours in the apartment that the McCann family occupied in the Ocean Club resort, and from where Maddie disappeared on May 3. According to sources within the investigation, the dog marked the death of the child inside the apartment.




Madeleine possibly killed in the apartment

by Tânia Laranjo / Henrique Machado / Paulo Marcelino - 05Aug2007
(...)
Policia Judiciaria (PJ) believes that Madeleine may have been killed in the Algarve apartment where she spent her holidays with her parents and siblings, in May. The specially trained dogs from the english police, cocker spaniel, that have been sniffing for the trail of the missing child, have detected residues that point to the presence of a corpse on those premises.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic159.html

And a different version (also CdM):
(...)
The lead that is now being followed by authorities, which was revealed by ‘Sol’ yesterday and confirmed by CM, complements another piece of data that misled the PJ’s elements at the beginning of the investigation. A sniffer dog used by GNR tracked the child between the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping and another house within the same resort, which led elements from PJ to never dismiss the possibility that the girl was taken by someone who knew her.

The clue that was now detected in the McCanns’ apartment refocuses the investigation on the close circle to the girl’s parents and friends, although it sheds no light on the reasons that led to the child’s death. PJ is being especially careful in this phase, and the names of the main suspects are omitted.

(...)

CM could further discover that the investigation met a turnaround over the last few weeks. The arrival of the english dogs and their presence in the holiday apartment has the purpose to confirm that possibility, given the fact that suspicions are now centered on the McCanns’ close circle, the only persons who can explain the alleged death of the child, while still at home.

The kidnapping theory, according to a source with PJ that was contacted by CM, is being increasingly dismissed, as it would only fit a scenario where the child would have been alive. Yesterday’s searches, which were duly ordered by a court, started around 7.30 a.m.

Corpse in the house for over 2 hours

The body only smells like a corpse at least two hours after dead, “until that point it remains warm and transmits a living person’s smell to the dog”, subcomissaire Paulo Brissos, a former second commander of the PSP’s sniffer dog operation team, has guaranteed to CM.

This means that for the english authorities’ thingyer spaniel to have marked the death of Madeleine within the apartment where she slept, at the ‘Ocean Club’, the girl had to be dead inside the apartment for “between 2 and 4 hours”.

And by 6 August the story had got mangled - with claims that "blood" had been found in the parents' bedroom. :

Jornal de Noticias6.8.07

Blood in the McCanns’ bedroom

Traces of blood from a dead person, presumably from little Madeleine, have been discovered on a wall in the bedroom that was occupied by the McCann couple, in the apartment at the ‘Ocean Club’, in Lagos, from where the girl vanished on May 3. This fact locates the child’s death inside the apartment, but the investigators do not take it as certain that this was a homicide, although according to the clues that were collected by forensics experts, somebody tried to clean up these traces. On the contrary, JN knows that the explanation that is seen as more likely at the moment to explain Maddie’s death – practically given as certain – is that this was an accident.

New elements of proof were apparently discovered early last week, through the use of dogs that are specially trained to detect the biological residues of dead persons, independently of the time that has passed after they were left. Investigators are convinced that the blood belongs to Madeleine, but they wait for more detailed analysis in order to confirm their suspicions.

The day before yesterday and in the early morning yesterday, the McCanns’ apartment was still being subject to intense technical examinations by the PJ’s technical staff, namely using ultra-violet light sources. JN could witness that numerous pictures were also taken.

New interrogations

The discovery has led to an entirely new perspective on this case and may focus the investigation on the child’s family circle and the McCanns’ close friends. The possibility of new interrogations on these persons has not been dismissed.

Hmmmmm!

Press reports may have played a part (if Harrison kept abreast of them).

But clearly what did dawn on Harrison is that (whether knowingly or unknowingly, and the question which has long intrigued me) he was selling an unsustainable lie, and, as is plain from his summary of all searches, he simply stopped trying.

Always a hostage to fortune to speculate on such things, but I think there's a chance that if Harrison hadn't shown that backbone, the McCanns might have landed still deeper in the mire than they did.

At the same time, I am critical of Harrison that he didn't make more plain than he did his critique of Grime's heedless and cavalier approach.

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4966 on: September 02, 2015, 12:59:49 PM »
Hmmmmm!

Press reports may have played a part (if Harrison kept abreast of them).

But clearly what did dawn on Harrison is that (whether knowingly or unknowingly, and the question which has long intrigued me) he was selling an unsustainable lie, and, as is plain from his summary of all searches, he simply stopped trying.

Always a hostage to fortune to speculate on such things, but I think there's a chance that if Harrison hadn't shown that backbone, the McCanns might have landed still deeper in the mire than they did.

At the same time, I am critical of Harrison that he didn't make more plain than he did his critique of Grime's heedless and cavalier approach.

Harrison recommended Grime ... and it's not entirely clear why in particular.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4967 on: September 02, 2015, 01:06:46 PM »
Not quite alfred.

More like 80/20.
I'm working at the moment but will show you where you are wrong later

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4968 on: September 02, 2015, 02:25:23 PM »
Not quite alfred.

More like 80/20.

you are using the figure from the study you quoted...80% accuracy to support your figure. This is wrong on so many counts.
Firstly the dogs were correct 80% of the time, that means if the dog alerted 5 times we would expect 4 to be correct and one wrong. so if Eddie alerted 5 times ...based on your reasoning....we would expect 4 of those alerts to be 100% correct.....they patently were not....therefore your reasoning is flawed

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4969 on: September 02, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
you are using the figure from the study you quoted...80% accuracy to support your figure. This is wrong on so many counts.
Firstly the dogs were correct 80% of the time, that means if the dog alerted 5 times we would expect 4 to be correct and one wrong. so if Eddie alerted 5 times ...based on your reasoning....we would expect 4 of those alerts to be 100% correct.....they patently were not....therefore your reasoning is flawed

Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4970 on: September 02, 2015, 02:44:37 PM »
Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.

We need a watertight definition of correct, and of incorrect.

The only two definitions relevant to the quest to discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine are:

Correct (results which reveal information germane to the quest).

Incorrect (results which reveal nothing germane to the quest).

All forensic results from the shelved enquiry (including the alert to Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car) came into the second category. 

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4971 on: September 02, 2015, 02:45:53 PM »
We need a watertight definition of correct, and of incorrect.

The only two definitions relevant to the quest to discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine are:

Correct (results which reveal information germane to the quest).

Incorrect (results which reveal nothing germane to the quest).

All forensic results from the shelved enquiry (including the alert to Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car) came into the second category.

Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4972 on: September 02, 2015, 02:48:04 PM »
Do you have any relevant comments to make?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4973 on: September 02, 2015, 02:56:20 PM »
Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.
.
So you cannot question my logic which shows your80/20
Estimate to be total rubbish

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4974 on: September 02, 2015, 03:07:05 PM »
Do you have any relevant comments to make?

I already have on here and elsewhere.

Meanwhile your obsession and libel of Grime continues unabated, and you are a complete amateur dog 'expert' with no practical experience whatsoever of using dogs at crime scenes.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4975 on: September 02, 2015, 03:13:15 PM »

Getting nasty.

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4976 on: September 02, 2015, 03:31:18 PM »
Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.


Were the McCanns and their associates taking fingerprints and in charge of the police dogs then?

Quote

Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimăo. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4977 on: September 02, 2015, 06:06:47 PM »
Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.

Who do you call "associates"? Aside from the parents and a few of the T7, hotel staff were in there as well as GNR officers and presumably at least one dog, according to the forensic report. Were the PJ officers in forensic suits when they turned up?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4978 on: September 02, 2015, 06:33:55 PM »
Harrison recommended Grime ... and it's not entirely clear why in particular.

I do seem to recall (and sadly cannot remember where from so don't shoot me) that Harrison was in the past a dog handler, and had worked with Grime. 

So that may be why he was specifically recommended   

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4979 on: September 02, 2015, 06:46:29 PM »
I do seem to recall (and sadly cannot remember where from so don't shoot me) that Harrison was in the past a dog handler, and had worked with Grime. 

So that may be why he was specifically recommended

That rang a bell as well...

ETA: It doesn't seem as if Harrison was a handler, but somehow involved in promoting Keela...

Thanks to Pathfinder's find on an earlier thread:

Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog
11:52, UK, Friday 30 December 2005

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.

A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then Ł200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.

In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.

http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6106.msg213570#msg213570
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 06:48:34 PM by Carana »