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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on July 14, 2019, 11:38:15 AM
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Starting with the morning, I thought it might be useful to review the day up until the timeline produced by the T9.
According to Rachael Oldfield she, her husband and daughter arrived at the Millennium for breakfast at 8:00, followed by the Payne couple with their daughters and Russell O'Brien with his two children. She says Jane Tanner didn't attend because she wasn't feeling well.
After breakfast Matthew went with Russell to drop his daughter at the Mini Club and they went from there to the beach. Rachael took her daughter to the creche then returned to her apartment until 9:45 when she went to the pool area. She read her book and chatted with Kate McCann until 11:10 when she and Matt had a tennis lesson after which they collected their daughter and went to the Payne's for lunch. (10th May statement)
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I'm going to find this a difficult thread to follow. How do you track so many people and so many times?
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Starting with the morning, I thought it might be useful to review the day up until the timeline produced by the T9.
According to Rachael Oldfield she, her husband and daughter arrived at the Millennium for breakfast at 8:00, followed by the Payne couple with their daughters and Russell O'Brien with his two children. She says Jane Tanner didn't attend because she wasn't feeling well.
After breakfast Matthew went with Russell to drop his daughter at the Mini Club and they went from there to the beach. Rachael took her daughter to the creche then returned to her apartment until 9:45 when she went to the pool area. She read her book and chatted with Kate McCann until 11:10 when she and Matt had a tennis lesson after which they collected their daughter and went to the Payne's for lunch. (10th May statement)
Probably reading this wrong, but what happened to the other O'Brien girl ?
Russel has 2 children at breakfast.
Matt says he goes with Russel to drop daughter off at kids club.
That must be Russel's daughter as Rachael takes her (their) daughter to creche.
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Probably reading this wrong, but what happened to the other O'Brien girl ?
Russel has 2 children at breakfast.
Matt says he goes with Russel to drop daughter off at kids club.
That must be Russel's daughter as Rachael takes her (their) daughter to creche.
Well spotted. Actually Matthew didn't say anything much in his second statement; he couldn't remember who was at breakfast. It was all Rachael's story. He just says he arrived at the beach at 9:30 and sailed until 11:00. He saw the Paynes there.
In his rog interview Matt does confirm he went with Russell to the Mini Club, then he went to the beach but Russell didn't say he still had a child with him. How much credence can be given to this I don't know, because he didn't remember it a year earlier.
As Russell dropped his daughter off at the Mini Club at 9:50 so if Matt was with him he arrived at the beach half an hour after he thought he did. Matthew doesn't comment on the Mini sail either (10:30-11:00).
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In her 4th May Statement Jane says she skipped breakfast on 3rd because she was going to the tennis. She played with Kate and Dianne and Russell came to watch with their younger daughter who wasn't well. After the tennis the three of them went to the beach until 12:20, then collected their elder daughter and went to 5D where they had lunch with the Oldfields.
She says she doesn't know what Kate did after the tennis finished at 10:00.
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Any mention of Gerry during this time ?
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Any mention of Gerry during this time ?
According to his 10th May statement he took Madeleine to her club, but I'm not sure it's his signature on the sheet. What do others think?
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Processo-pdf01-pages-107-111[105-109]/processopdf01page107-CrecheRecords3.jpg)
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Looks like K McCann to me
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Looks like K McCann to me
Actually signed as "KM McCann" which is Kate.
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Any mention of Gerry during this time ?
Gerry and Kate had breakfast in their apartment so their itinerary was a bit different.
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Actually signed as "KM McCann" which is Kate.
There's one M. It's signed KMcCann.
G McCann signature must be the one next to 9:10am
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Actually signed as "KM McCann" which is Kate.
Stand corrected but I saw her sign a document like that where she appears to use the M for "Marie" and McCann twice but only write it once.
That signature at 9:10 is different to Kate's style of writing.
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Gerry thought he dropped Madeleine off and collected her at lunchtime on 3rd. Understandably as he usually did, but there was a change it seems;
KATE stayed to play tennis he took MADELEINE to her creche, through the short-cut, where they arrived at 09h15, and , since it was obligatory, he signed the child's attendance register.
... Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE,
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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What bearing do you think any of this has on Madeleine’s later disappearance, out of interest?
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Starting with the morning, I thought it might be useful to review the day up until the timeline produced by the T9.
According to Rachael Oldfield she, her husband and daughter arrived at the Millennium for breakfast at 8:00, followed by the Payne couple with their daughters and Russell O'Brien with his two children. She says Jane Tanner didn't attend because she wasn't feeling well.
After breakfast Matthew went with Russell to drop his daughter at the Mini Club and they went from there to the beach. Rachael took her daughter to the creche then returned to her apartment until 9:45 when she went to the pool area. She read her book and chatted with Kate McCann until 11:10 when she and Matt had a tennis lesson after which they collected their daughter and went to the Payne's for lunch. (10th May statement)
Good idea. To make it an easier task initially would it help to focus on each family and then bring the families together?
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That's all that was said in early statements so now I'm moving on to the rogatory statements and Kate's book. They cntain more details, but imo are less reliable due to the passage of time.
Kate's book talks about what she did after her tennis;
After my lesson, I hung around on the grassy play area, watching Gerry on the court and chatting to Russell, who I’d found there [madeleine]
She mentions the man filming his daughter and recounts the conversation the three of them had. Jane told the police the following day that she didn't know what Kate did after the tennis. There she is, Jane, talking to your partner!!!
In her rog interview Jane remembers the conversation with the man filming, but she says it was Wednesday morning and she and Rachael were there as well as Kate and Russell. Wednesday was the rainy day when there was no tennis so Jane has got the day wrong imo.
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Good idea. To make it an easier task initially would it help to focus on each family and then bring the families together?
By the time of the rogatory interiews there was confusion over what happened on which day. Jane in particular completely forgot that the tennis was rained off on Wednesday.
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Russell gets the day correct; He remembers that he was late taking E**a to Minis, it was 9:50 when she was signed in. After that, he says, he went back to his apartment and E**e slept. After she woke he took her to watch Jane play tennis. There wasn't much time for a sleep so that might have been misremembered.
However, Russell has Kate, Jane, himself and Rachael watching the Mini tennis, which began at 10:30 until 11:00. He recalls the father with the video, which, it seems, was analysed by the UK police later.
According to Jane she, Russell and E**e then walked down to the beach, meeting the Paynes who were on their way back up after sailing. They told her they'd seen MM and E**a sailing. Russ took to the water in a kayak and Jane sat on the beach with E**e. She also saw the Minis getting ready to walk back up at 11:00. They returned in time to pick up E**a and had lunch in their apartment with the Oldfields.
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This is really interesting G thanks for doing this.
"What bearing do you think any of this has on Madeleine’s later disappearance, out of interest?"
This is a commentary of events as told by the Tapas adults. I don't think the thread should be disrupted by you and others asking questions... out of interest?
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This is really interesting G thanks for doing this.
"What bearing do you think any of this has on Madeleine’s later disappearance, out of interest?"
This is a commentary of events as told by the Tapas adults. I don't think the thread should be disrupted by you and others asking questions... out of interest?
Thanks MTI, and the others who have shown interest. The group were keen to provide a timeline for the evening of 3rd, but it was an unusual day in that things were different to other days. Most of the information emerged quite a while after the events. The rogatory statements were a year after and Kate's book was even later. How reliable were their memories after these times? How much had their memories been affected by conversations with each other?
It's definitely a shame that statements weren't taken from the other holidaymakers. The video man might have had simething interesting to say, as might others who were around.
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Thanks MTI, and the others who have shown interest. The group were keen to provide a timeline for the evening of 3rd, but it was an unusual day in that things were different to other days. Most of the information emerged quite a while after the events. The rogatory statements were a year after and Kate's book was even later. How reliable were their memories after these times? How much had their memories been affected by conversations with each other?
It's definitely a shame that statements weren't taken from the other holidaymakers. The video man might have had simething interesting to say, as might others who were around.
I just wonder if the video man didn't hand it into the pj or put it on FB or other social media outlet. I also find it strange that the other people dining didn't publicly discuss what was going on. Well not in the UK papers anyway that I am aware of.
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I just wonder if the video man didn't hand it into the pj or put it on FB or other social media outlet. I also find it strange that the other people dining didn't publicly discuss what was going on. Well not in the UK papers anyway that I am aware of.
They [" the other people dining didn't publicly discuss what was going on] are not allowed the case under the Portuguese Judicial Secrecy Laws
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They [" the other people dining didn't publicly discuss what was going on] are not allowed the case under the Portuguese Judicial Secrecy Laws
Could that law apply when they were no longer within Portuguese territory?
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They [" the other people dining didn't publicly discuss what was going on] are not allowed the case under the Portuguese Judicial Secrecy Laws
Portuguese law can only be enforced in Portugal imo. The media were quite happy to print the stories of those who were supportive of the McCanns. Whether any who weren't supportive approached the media isn't known, but Katie Hopkins said she wasn't allowed' to write anything critical of them.
Dianne W's rogatory interview contained an interesting snippet;
4078 “You also, when we spoke earlier, expressed a sense of frustration about the fact that you’d all been banned by the Super (inaudible).”
Reply “That’s right, yes.”
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Thanks MTI, and the others who have shown interest. The group were keen to provide a timeline for the evening of 3rd, but it was an unusual day in that things were different to other days. Most of the information emerged quite a while after the events. The rogatory statements were a year after and Kate's book was even later. How reliable were their memories after these times? How much had their memories been affected by conversations with each other?
It's definitely a shame that statements weren't taken from the other holidaymakers. The video man might have had simething interesting to say, as might others who were around.
The timeline affect how the drama unfolded.
The disappearance happened, seemingly late on the evening of 3 May.
On 4 May, a priority was to get statements from the T9.
By 5 May, most OC holidaymakers were flying home.
Videoman probably has no reason to think he has anything to add. I don't know when Videoman became prominent, but I suspect it is down to OG to hunt him down and grill him.
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Thanks MTI, and the others who have shown interest. The group were keen to provide a timeline for the evening of 3rd, but it was an unusual day in that things were different to other days. Most of the information emerged quite a while after the events. The rogatory statements were a year after and Kate's book was even later. How reliable were their memories after these times? How much had their memories been affected by conversations with each other?
It's definitely a shame that statements weren't taken from the other holidaymakers. The video man might have had simething interesting to say, as might others who were around.
It's a shame statements weren't taken in English... That's far more important afaiac
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According to his 10th May statement he took Madeleine to her club, but I'm not sure it's his signature on the sheet. What do others think?
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Processo-pdf01-pages-107-111[105-109]/processopdf01page107-CrecheRecords3.jpg)
As I read that - GM takes her in the morning. She’s then collected at lunchtime by KM. KM signs her back in for the afternoon before collecting her later at 17:30. I have read theories that MM wasn’t in the crèche at all that day, but the PJ believed she was and it’s a bit far fetched, IMO, that a substitute child was used and signed in as MM. Whatever happened to MM IMO happened after 17:30 that evening.
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The timeline affect how the drama unfolded.
The disappearance happened, seemingly late on the evening of 3 May.
On 4 May, a priority was to get statements from the T9.
By 5 May, most OC holidaymakers were flying home.
Videoman probably has no reason to think he has anything to add. I don't know when Videoman became prominent, but I suspect it is down to OG to hunt him down and grill him.
I read in one of those police manuals that everyone should be interviewed and I agree. Sometimes people have information and they don't realise it. Totman would have been found, we would know if Wilkins had been seen on his wanderings and whether the Sperrey's had dinner in the Tapas on 3rd.
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This is really interesting G thanks for doing this.
"What bearing do you think any of this has on Madeleine’s later disappearance, out of interest?"
This is a commentary of events as told by the Tapas adults. I don't think the thread should be disrupted by you and others asking questions... out of interest?
I don’t care what you think. I think it’s a perfectly legitimate question and I will ask any question I want, provided it breaks no forum rules.
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As I read that - GM takes her in the morning. She’s then collected at lunchtime by KM. KM signs her back in for the afternoon before collecting her later at 17:30. I have read theories that MM wasn’t in the crèche at all that day, but the PJ believed she was and it’s a bit far fetched, IMO, that a substitute child was used and signed in as MM. Whatever happened to MM IMO happened after 17:30 that evening.
So you're reading the 9:10 signature as Gerry's?
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I read in one of those police manuals that everyone should be interviewed and I agree. Sometimes people have information and they don't realise it. Totman would have been found, we would know if Wilkins had been seen on his wanderings and whether the Sperrey's had dinner in the Tapas on 3rd.
I think an awful lot of people have information that is important, but they don't realise it.
That includes the McCanns and the Smiths, and many more.
Perhaps we should set up a UCOS.
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I think an awful lot of people have information that is important, but they don't realise it.
That includes the McCanns and the Smiths, and many more.
Perhaps we should set up a UCOS.
you THINK the McCanns have more information....i think you are wrong. Thats why i think it preposterous to suggest tht SY have not re intrviewed them..and gone throug everything again...as far as the smiths are concerned..they didnt even see his fce...you seeeto ink its important what soccer they were watching...again merely your opinion and im sure its of no importance
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So you're reading the 9:10 signature as Gerry's?
Yeah absolutely. I'm reading that as "G McCann". It's definitely not KM (when you compare it next to her signature),
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you THINK the McCanns have more information....i think you are wrong. Thats why i think it preposterous to suggest tht SY have not re intrviewed them..and gone throug everything again...as far as the smiths are concerned..they didnt even see his fce...you seeeto ink its important what soccer they were watching...again merely your opinion and im sure its of no importance
Don't worry about it.
You're not getting an invite to MoJ UCOS.
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Yeah absolutely. I'm reading that as "G McCann". It's definitely not KM (when you compare it next to her signature),
I can't see very well at the moment, which is why I asked what others read it as. It should be Gerry because Kate was playing tennis and he said he dropped MM off. He said he collected her at lunchtime too, but he didn't.
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Don't worry about it.
You're not getting an invite to MoJ UCOS.
I wouldnt want to
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I wouldnt want to
Excellent!
So we agree!
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Could that law apply when they were no longer within Portuguese territory?
The law as I saw it, was pretty non-specific. If you were intending to go back to Portugal at any stage of your lifetime I wouldn't take the risk.
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So you're reading the 9:10 signature as Gerry's?
Do we have an example of Gerry's signature?
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Probably reading this wrong, but what happened to the other O'Brien girl ?
Russel has 2 children at breakfast.
Matt says he goes with Russel to drop daughter off at kids club.
That must be Russel's daughter as Rachael takes her (their) daughter to creche.
How old was the other daughter? E++A is definitely in the same group as MM, so perhaps the other daughter is in the group for younger kids. Were they all dropped off at the same place before they were sorted into the groups?
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I can't see very well at the moment, which is why I asked what others read it as. It should be Gerry because Kate was playing tennis and he said he dropped MM off. He said he collected her at lunchtime too, but he didn't.
According to Fiona she was with Kate when she picked Madeleine up at lunch time.
1485
'How often during the holiday did you see Madeleine and the twins''
Reply
'Erm, as I say, I would have seen them every high tea, I mean, the Thursday, that was a different day, in that, I'd only seen Madeleine when, as I say, when I walked with Kate, erm, and we picked Madeleine and Scarlet up.
1485
'And again, this is a repeat but when did you, when was the last time you saw Madeleine''
Reply
'It was, it would be when we walked back with, erm, Scarlet and Kate from the, from picking them at the kids club in the af, in the lunch time, that was the last time I saw them'.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
The last time Fiona saw Madeleine was at lunch time on 3 May 2007.
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Do we have an example of Gerry's signature?
Check out the Lobsters sheets; plenty of them there.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm
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It is Gerry's signature at 9:10
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How old was the other daughter? E++A is definitely in the same group as MM, so perhaps the other daughter is in the group for younger kids. Were they all dropped off at the same place before they were sorted into the groups?
The Payne's youngest was in the baby group. situated above the 24 hour reception.
The Oldfields and the younger O'Brien child were in Toddler 1, situated behind the Tapas Bar.
The Payne's older child was in Toddler 2 with Maeleine's siblings, situated behind the Tapas Bar,
Madeleine and E**a were in the Mini Club, situated above the 24 hour reception
Each child was delivered by a parent to the appropriate location. .
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The Payne's youngest was in the baby group. situated above the 24 hour reception.
The Oldfields and the younger O'Brien child were in Toddler 1, situated behind the Tapas Bar.
The Payne's older child was in Toddler 2 with Maeleine's siblings, situated behind the Tapas Bar,
Madeleine and E**a were in the Mini Club, situated above the 24 hour reception
Each child was delivered by a parent to the appropriate location. .
Have you see the register sheets for the other groups that day? Are all the other T9 children accounted for?
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as far as the smiths are concerned..they didnt even see his fce...
Where on earth did you get that from? All you seem to want to do is discredit anything that links the disappearance to the parents... We should stick to the facts as they were described by those that witnessed them:
" His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good" (Martin Smith's statement)
"At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top. " (Aofie Smith's statement)
"The description of the individual who carried the child was: Caucasian, around 175 to 180 cm tall. About 35 years, or older. He was somewhat tanned as a result of sun exposure. Average build, in good shape. Short hair, brown in colour. He does not remember if he wore glasses, or had a beard or a moustache." (Peter Smith's statement)
So they did see his face!!
The big question for me is why didn't Mitchell present Smithman as a suspect?
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Have you see the register sheets for the other groups that day? Are all the other T9 children accounted for?
No, only the sheets showing Madeleine and E**a and those showing the twins and L**y Payne.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm
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Where on earth did you get that from? All you seem to want to do is discredit anything that links the disappearance to the parents... We should stick to the facts as they were described by those that witnessed them:
" His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good" (Martin Smith's statement)
"At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top. " (Aofie Smith's statement)
"The description of the individual who carried the child was: Caucasian, around 175 to 180 cm tall. About 35 years, or older. He was somewhat tanned as a result of sun exposure. Average build, in good shape. Short hair, brown in colour. He does not remember if he wore glasses, or had a beard or a moustache." (Peter Smith's statement)
So they did see his face!!
The big question for me is why didn't Mitchell present Smithman as a suspect?
Smith... Who Said he was 60 to 80% sure it was Gerry.. Did not see his face.. Aoifee.. May have seen his face but didn't say she thought it was gerry
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Smith... Who Said he was 60 to 80% sure it was Gerry.. Did not see his face.. Aoifee.. May have seen his face but didn't say she thought it was gerry
How could he tell he wasn't wearing glasses & had no beard or moustache if he didn't see his face?
Explain that one to me Sherlock.
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Smith... Who Said he was 60 to 80% sure it was Gerry.. Did not see his face.. Aoifee.. May have seen his face but didn't say she thought it was gerry
This didn't happen on the 3rd so should be removed - what do you think G-unit?
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How could he tell he wasn't wearing glasses & had no beard or moustache if he didn't see his face?
Explain that one to me Sherlock.
Face means a view from face on. A side on view of the head is not the face, but reveals beards or moustaches.
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Face means face on. A side on view of the head is not the face, but reveals beards or moustaches.
Bull crap.
People don't have beards or moustaches, or glasses for that matter, on their heads.
They have them on their faces.
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This didn't happen on the 3rd so should be removed - what do you think G-unit?
I was replying to sil who introduced the Smiths to the thread
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I was replying to sil who introduced the Smiths to the thread
I know the Smiths saw the man on the 3rd but linking that to G McCann didn't happen on the 3rd. Just keep to the topic please.
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I know the Smiths saw the man on the 3rd but linking that to G McCann didn't happen on the 3rd. Just keep to the topic please.
Sils statement that the mccanns and smiths have more information is nothing to do with the 3rd either
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Smith... Who Said he was 60 to 80% sure it was Gerry.. Did not see his face.. Aoifee.. May have seen his face but didn't say she thought it was gerry
Utter rubbish. You can't state someone isn't wearing glasses unless you have seen their face. Why are you so defensive about the Smith sighting... ?
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Utter rubbish. You can't state someone isn't wearing glasses unless you have seen their face. Why are you so defensive about the Smith sighting..
All off topic it seems.. I'm interested in the truth..I think it's, reasonably important
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From the OP: "Starting with the morning, I thought it might be useful to review the day up until the timeline produced by the T9."
Please keep to that limitation as respect to the OP.
No dogs - any mention of dogs will be removed unless G-unit gives OK.
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Starting with the morning, I thought it might be useful to review the day up until the timeline produced by the T9.
Please keep to that limitation as respect to the OP.
No dogs - any mention of dogs will be removed unless G-unit gives OK.
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IMO it's, a totally pointless thread.. How can you build up a picture of the 3rd if you don't know how accurate the statements are
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All off topic it seems.. I'm interested in the truth..I think it's, reasonably important
How will you find that if you try to discredit certain aspects as they are reported? The Smith sighting was on May 3rd it's on topic. We can't then pretend the later linking to GM just didn't happen and that it's off topic. They are directly related.
The other aspects I listed are all examples of other topics (like the Smith sighting on May 3rd) that some people, yourself included IMO, are incredibly defensive about.
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How will you find that if you try to discredit certain aspects as they are reported? The Smith sighting was on May 3rd it's on topic. We can't then pretend the later linking to GM just didn't happen and that it's off topic. They are directly related.
The other aspects I listed are all examples of other topics (like the Smith sighting on May 3rd) that some people, yourself included IMO, are incredibly defensive about.
I'm not defensive about anything... Youre totally mistaken
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IMO it's, a totally pointless thread..
May I respectfully suggest that you don't engage with it then?
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May I respectfully suggest that you don't engage with it then?
Nope... We are all entitled to our opinion.. Afaiaa
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Nope... We are all entitled to our opinion.. Afaiaa
Of course we are. You're opinion is that this thread is pointless because we don't know if the statements are accurate. If that is your opinion on this thread then why engage further? Why even bother with any of it? The statements might not be accurate could apply to virtually every thread here? Why on earth would anyone want to spend hours investigating and debating something if they believed this was a pointless exercise?
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Why didn't the parents do rogatory interviews to account for their recollection of May 3rd?
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Why didn't the parents do rogatory interviews to account for their recollection of May 3rd?
Good question. Did they refuse or were they never asked?
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Good question. Did they refuse or were they never asked?
The parents were interviewed at length, as arguidos, in September 2007. As official suspects, they could be asked questions far more specific or leading than any in the rogatories. Furthermore, the parents were still arguidos when the Tapas Group rogatory questions were issued & SY had no jurisdiction to question in UK any official suspects in the Portuguese investigation.
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The parents were interviewed at length, as arguidos, in September 2007. As official suspects, they could be asked questions far more specific or leading than any in the rogatories. Furthermore, the parents were still arguidos when the Tapas Group rogatory questions were issued & SY had no jurisdiction to question in UK any official suspects in the Portuguese investigation.
SY weren't involved, were they?
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By the time of the rogatory interiews there was confusion over what happened on which day. Jane in particular completely forgot that the tennis was rained off on Wednesday.
Ok so why not just put the bones on it, so to speak, and then try and draw sensible inferences to fill in gaps/iron out anomalies and inconsistencies based on all available data?
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Of course we are. You're opinion is that this thread is pointless because we don't know if the statements are accurate. If that is your opinion on this thread then why engage further? Why even bother with any of it? The statements might not be accurate could apply to virtually every thread here? Why on earth would anyone want to spend hours investigating and debating something if they believed this was a pointless exercise?
I would say we know they are not accurate. kate went as far as to make new statements to control risks because she found the statements to be innaccurate....these statements were then given to the PJ...Rebelo is reported to have said as much...colin sutton said the room for error was huge...
so when building a timeline surely its important to bear in mind that the statements are not accurate nd the way tey were taken and recorded contributed to this
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I would say we know they are not accurate. kate went as far as to make new statements to control risks because she found the statements to be innaccurate....these statements were then given to the PJ...Rebelo is reported to have said as much...colin sutton said the room for error was huge...
so when building a timeline surely its important to bear in mind that the statements are not accurate nd the way tey were taken and recorded contributed to this
I don't know if you and others here have looked at other cases or just this one but I can assure you that inconsistencies in wit stats especially timelines and sightings will show huge inconsistencies. Some will be lying but most will not. We all perceive things differently etc, etc and recall will reflect this. In this case there's no reason for T9 to have perfect recall where all wit stats come together perfectly like synchronised swimmers.
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I don't know if you and others here have looked at other cases or just this one but I can assure you that inconsistencies in wit stats especially timelines and sightings will show huge inconsistencies. Some will be lying but most will not. We all perceive things differently etc, etc and recall will reflect this. In this case there's no reason for T9 to have perfect recall where all wit stats come together perfectly like synchronised swimmers.
The statements were recorded in Portuguese and we have no record in English as to what the T9 actually said. Not only that the statements, are not verbatim and are a summary in Portuguese of what the T9 said in English.
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The Paynes were at the beach every morning. After breakfast they would each drop a child into their creche then meet at the waterfront. They had booked lessons in wind surfing and sailing on alternate days. The only other group member who had lessons was Jane, who had booked to wind surf. In fact Fiona says there was only one other holidaymaker doing the sailing with them.
On 3rd it was supposed to be wind surfing, but it became sailing because there was no wind. It was very rough that day apparently. Fiona thinks these lessons ended at 11:30/12:00. After that they would collect their children and go to their apartment for lunch. Every day except Thursday 3rd the Oldfields and O'Briens joined them.
Matthew was on a boat on Thursfay morning too. The Paynes came back early that day because they were wet and cold. Fiona went to the 24 hour reception with Kate to collect their children while David and Gerry collected the ones from near the Tapas. Then they went to their own apartments for lunch.
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The statements were recorded in Portuguese and we have no record in English as to what the T9 actually said. Not only that the statements, are not verbatim and are a summary in Portuguese of what the T9 said in English.
Sounds good enough to me ie a general outline. As I keep saying we all perceive things differently. No one would expect recall to be as if they were wearing headcams. The interviews I've read are very detailed and perfectly acceptable. I don't believe T9 had a direct hand in MM's disappearance so even if they were able to dot every i and cross every t how would it help in advancing the case? They were not there when MM disappeared imo so regardless of how good, bad or indifferent the wit stats, police interviews are how would it assist?
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Sounds good enough to me ie a general outline. As I keep saying we all perceive things differently. No one would expect recall to be as if they were wearing headcams. The interviews I've read are very detailed and perfectly acceptable. I don't believe T9 had a direct hand in MM's disappearance so even if they were able to dot every i and cross every t how would it help in advancing the case? They were not there when MM disappeared imo so regardless of how good, bad or indifferent the wit stats, police interviews are how would it assist?
I agree they are a general outline but they are not accurate according to kate..Yet the poster who started this thread has not accepted they may not be accurate imo.
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I would say we know they are not accurate. kate went as far as to make new statements to control risks because she found the statements to be innaccurate....these statements were then given to the PJ...Rebelo is reported to have said as much...colin sutton said the room for error was huge...
so when building a timeline surely its important to bear in mind that the statements are not accurate nd the way tey were taken and recorded contributed to this
We could take her book as the best effort she could manage with regards to a timeline she won’t argue with, maybe, IMO??
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According to Kate's book there was a coversation near the sun loungers on the morning of 3rd. It was about whether to cancel the Tapas booking and go to the Millennium that evening. It took place 'a little later' than the conversation with videoman. At some point before Gerry finished his lesson she went back to 5A and washed Madeleine's pyjama top and prepared lunch.
She says she went with Fiona to get the children. Fiona told her that she'd seen the Minis sailing when she was windsurfing. She had spotted E**a but not Madeleine.
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According to his 10th May statement he took Madeleine to her club, but I'm not sure it's his signature on the sheet. What do others think?
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Processo-pdf01-pages-107-111[105-109]/processopdf01page107-CrecheRecords3.jpg)
If KM signed the crèche records at the Tapas after high tea I wonder why she didn’t put the same time out for all the children? I wonder also why do some people remember Gerry picking up MM from the crèche but other statements differ?
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$6(&According to Jane in her rogatory interview she initially booked the same waterfont lessons as the Paynes; sailing one day and windsurfing the next. Then she decided to do tennis. She couldn't sail then because it took place at the same time as the tennis, but she could windsurf, which began later. Thursday was a sailing day so although she, Russell and E**e went to the beach she didn't do an acrtivity there.
She thinks they met the Paynes heading back from the beach;
I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson...and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’.
And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.
So the O'Briens got to the beach around 11 am, when the Mini-sail finished. They don't seem to have seen Matthew, who had been sailing with the Paynes and arrived back at the Tennis Courts slightly late for his 11 am lesson with Rachael.
At 12:30 they picked up E**a and had lunch in 5D with the Oldfields.
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If KM signed the crèche records at the Tapas after high tea I wonder why she didn’t put the same time out for all the children? I wonder also why do some people remember Gerry picking up MM from the crèche but other statements differ?
The logistics of how and where the parents signed for their kids at the end of the day isn't clearly spelt out. The younger ones more likely were picked up from the creche rather than from where the high tea was served.
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The logistics of how and where the parents signed for their kids at the end of the day isn't clearly spelt out. The younger ones more likely were picked up from the creche rather than from where the high tea was served.
What does KM's book say? Some accounts had the nannies taking the twins to high tea, then Gerry arriving after tennis and finally KM joins them after her run. There’s so many contradictory accounts of who did what it’s hard to pick out the commonalities.
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What does KM's book say? Some accounts had the nannies taking the twins to high tea, then Gerry arriving after tennis and finally KM joins them after her run. There’s so many contradictory accounts of who did what it’s hard to pick out the commonalities.
Their rogs- in English- are a disgrace,inarticulate nonsence. err um you know err um tsks erm yeah you know he kind of and yeah well er erm um.
OK I asked two question at work the other day to a wide ranging group at lunch.
Question 1 what do you recall about the day Princess Diana's funeral
The answers were quite staggering actually. some said about watching it all day some recalled what they had for supper, what their kids were doing.
question 2 what do you recall about Thursday 21st February this year? only one person answered it was her daughters 4th Birthday!
Now not one person was related to Diana, and yet they could recall more about that day because it was a special and important day for many- apparently.
It was a special and important day a child was abducted was she not? Why can't they recall what they all did that day without erms ums and can't remember answers?
Poor Madeliene, what chance does she have with this bunch of numpties offering a time line to assist police.
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Their rogs- in English- are a disgrace,inarticulate nonsence. err um you know err um tsks erm yeah you know he kind of and yeah well er erm um.
OK I asked two question at work the other day to a wide ranging group at lunch.
Question 1 what do you recall about the day Princess Diana's funeral
The answers were quite staggering actually. some said about watching it all day some recalled what they had for supper, what their kids were doing.
question 2 what do you recall about Thursday 21st February this year? only one person answered it was her daughters 4th Birthday!
Now not one person was related to Diana, and yet they could recall more about that day because it was a special and important day for many- apparently.
It was a special and important day a child was abducted was she not? Why can't they recall what they all did that day without erms ums and can't remember answers?
Poor Madeliene, what chance does she have with this bunch of numpties offering a time line to assist police.
I watched Princess Di’s funeral on telly but couldn’t tell you what I did before or after it. Not a clue.
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But does anyone know what her book says about picking up from the creche and high tea.
I'm fairly certain that I've read she accounts for her signature being in the register for MM sign out (17:30) even though she didn't get MM from the creche (either GM or the nannies did) by saying they just signed for them all in the Tapas bar after high tea... My question is why then not put the same time out for all children? There's a five minute gap suggesting all children were not just signed out at the same time from high tea, IMO.
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But does anyone know what her book says about picking up from the creche and high tea.
I'm fairly certain that I've read she accounts for her signature being in the register for MM sign out (17:30) even though she didn't get MM from the creche (either GM or the nannies did) by saying they just signed for them all in the Tapas bar after high tea... My question is why then not put the same time out for all children? There's a five minute gap suggesting all children were not just signed out at the same time from high tea, IMO.
Good questions Billy. While there is the uncertainty of how the pick up from high tea worked how can anyone make sense of the signature or the time. Just as well no one ever went missing around tea time!
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Good questions Billy. While there is the uncertainty of how the pick up from high tea worked how can anyone make sense of the signature or the time. Just as well no one ever went missing around tea time!
Madelene notice the i missing.
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Madelene notice the i missing.
Are you saying the "i" is missing. I wonder if that was a subliminal message from beyond saying "I am missing"?
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I watched Princess Di’s funeral on telly but couldn’t tell you what I did before or after it. Not a clue.
Ok so you watched the funeral I suppose you do not recall any of it?
I Know exactly what I was doing that day- I never watched it - we are not related. I felt it was an intrusion on her sons grief. they baying crowd wanting this wanting that...
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Ok so you watched the funeral I suppose you do not recall any of it?
I Know exactly what I was doing that day- I never watched it - we are not related. I felt it was an intrusion on her sons grief. they baying crowd wanting this wanting that...
My husband and I went out for a walk. We saw no-one, it was surreal. We went into a pub and were the only custimers. It was mass madness and it was her sons who paid the price. I saw them on the news and cried for their ordeal. I still do if it's shown.
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My husband and I went out for a walk. We saw no-one, it was surreal. We went into a pub and were the only custimers. It was mass madness and it was her sons who paid the price. I saw them on the news and cried for their ordeal. I still do if it's shown.
Yes. It was a disgrace IMO.
I also recall what I was doing when the news came through about Madeliene being abducted. Funny that. I don't even know the child. The father worked in Glasgow for a while. As do I on occasion.