UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Icanhandlethetruth on January 12, 2020, 12:08:32 PM
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This came to me this morning. Bear with me it may take some time.
If we can confirm that UK dogs trained on piglets will alert to human remains and pigs. So likewise in the US, when dogs trained on human remains were introduced by Mr Grime to pig based material 100% of the dogs alerted we can deduce that the scents are indistinguishable to trained dogs. So before Eddie trained on humans he would alert to humans and pigs and after he was exposed to human remains in a training situation he also would alert to humans and pigs. So its not much of an enhancement. So I re read Mr Grimes personal profile statement and its actually quite clear what the enhancement is. See the cut and paste from his statement below
“and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.
He mentions the training in the USA using human remains and ends the sentence, He starts a new sentence concerning the enhanced training and it references the method of collection by means of no contact with the corpse. This is the enhancement. This is the E in EVRD.
Now If I can elaborate what role this may have played in the decision to utilise Eddie’s skills.
Give me a few minutes before you pile in and rip into this. I'll have a quick cup of tea before I post Part 2
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The primary use of the STU-100 was to collect the scent from human remains for potential evidential use. It was estimated that sterile gauze pads could hold the evidence for 11 years.
The sample was taken from the air around the human remains and the sterile gauze pad that captured the scent was then taken to be stored in glass jars as evidence.
I believe Mr Grime may have witnessed this process and realised it may be a way to enhance Eddies abilities to recognise the scent that may be in the environment around where a dead body has been rather than a dead body itself.
Thus Eddies was trained using these gauze pads away from any actual human remains and Mr Grime obviously had the opinion that it enhanced Eddies abilities as he unilaterally added the famous E to VRD.
Mark Harrison could have known Mr Grime was working on an enhancement that wasn’t focused on the location of a body but the location of scent only and so called Mr Grime, Eddie and Keela over to Portugal. This would address some of the anomalies that exist with the use of the dogs.
1. Why use a VRD at all. Everyone knew there was no possibility of a cadaver still being in situ at the apartment.
2.Why fly Eddie over from the USA at all, why not use one of the many other UK that were trained to locate human remains.( Can someone verify this is true and not the he flew from the UK)
3. I always wondered why Mr Grime went on for so long in his statement about the STU-100 as it was never used in Portugal and seemed to have no relevance.
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The primary use of the STU-100 was to collect the scent from human remains for potential evidential use. It was estimated that sterile gauze pads could hold the evidence for 11 years.
The sample was taken from the air around the human remains and the sterile gauze pad that captured the scent was then taken to be stored in glass jars as evidence.
I believe Mr Grime may have witnessed this process and realised it may be a way to enhance Eddies abilities to recognise the scent that may be in the environment around where a dead body has been rather than a dead body itself.
Thus Eddies was trained using these gauze pads away from any actual human remains and Mr Grime obviously had the opinion that it enhanced Eddies abilities as he unilaterally added the famous E to VRD.
Mark Harrison could have known Mr Grime was working on an enhancement that wasn’t focused on the location of a body but the location of scent only and so called Mr Grime, Eddie and Keela over to Portugal. This would address some of the anomalies that exist with the use of the dogs.
1. Why use a VRD at all. Everyone knew there was no possibility of a cadaver still being in situ at the apartment.
2.Why fly Eddie over from the USA at all, why not use one of the many other UK that were trained to locate human remains.( Can someone verify this is true and not the he flew from the UK)
3. I always wondered why Mr Grime went on for so long in his statement about the STU-100 as it was never used in Portugal and seemed to have no relevance.
Very salient point lost on some imo.
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Yup, you've lost me. What's a STU-100 when it's at home?
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Yup, you've lost me. What's a STU-100 when it's at home?
Its in Mr Grimes statement although he omits the U and calls it a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.
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Its in Mr Grimes statement although he omits the U and calls it a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.
Tell us more about this thing and why it makes Eddie so special.
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Tell us more about this thing and why it makes Eddie so special.
Best for Mr Grime to describe it.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
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Best for Mr Grime to describe it.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Is this a device that he designed and made, and is it in widespread use now?
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What does this mean?
Performance evaluation of the Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) for organic compound collection and release.
Eckenrode BA1, Ramsey SA, Stockham RA, Van Berkel GJ, Asano KG, Wolf DA.
Author information
Abstract
The Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) is a portable vacuum that uses airflow through a sterile gauze pad to capture a volatiles profile over evidentiary items for subsequent canine presentation to assist law enforcement personnel. This device was evaluated to determine its ability to trap and release organic compounds at ambient temperature under controlled laboratory conditions. Gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) analyses using a five-component volatiles mixture in methanol injected directly into a capture pad indicated that compound release could be detected initially and 3 days after the time of collection. Additionally, 15 compounds of a 39-component toxic organic gaseous mixture (10-1000 parts per billion by volume [p.p.b.(v)]) were trapped, released, and detected in the headspace of a volatiles capture pad after being exposed to this mixture using the STU-100 with analysis via GC-MS. Component release efficiencies at ambient temperature varied with the analyte; however, typical values of c. 10% were obtained. Desorption at elevated temperatures of reported human odor/scent chemicals and colognes trapped by the STU-100 pads was measured and indicated that the STU-100 has a significant trapping efficiency at ambient temperature. Multivariate statistical analysis of subsequent mass spectral patterns was also performed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16882219
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Is this a device that he designed and made, and is it in widespread use now?
I have no idea.
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What does this mean?
Performance evaluation of the Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) for organic compound collection and release.
Eckenrode BA1, Ramsey SA, Stockham RA, Van Berkel GJ, Asano KG, Wolf DA.
Author information
Abstract
The Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) is a portable vacuum that uses airflow through a sterile gauze pad to capture a volatiles profile over evidentiary items for subsequent canine presentation to assist law enforcement personnel. This device was evaluated to determine its ability to trap and release organic compounds at ambient temperature under controlled laboratory conditions. Gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) analyses using a five-component volatiles mixture in methanol injected directly into a capture pad indicated that compound release could be detected initially and 3 days after the time of collection. Additionally, 15 compounds of a 39-component toxic organic gaseous mixture (10-1000 parts per billion by volume [p.p.b.(v)]) were trapped, released, and detected in the headspace of a volatiles capture pad after being exposed to this mixture using the STU-100 with analysis via GC-MS. Component release efficiencies at ambient temperature varied with the analyte; however, typical values of c. 10% were obtained. Desorption at elevated temperatures of reported human odor/scent chemicals and colognes trapped by the STU-100 pads was measured and indicated that the STU-100 has a significant trapping efficiency at ambient temperature. Multivariate statistical analysis of subsequent mass spectral patterns was also performed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16882219
Again I have no idea.
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I have no idea.
Answer - no ( I didn't know the answer to the question when I asked it).
STU-100
( Scent Transfer Unit )
What is the STU-100 ? The Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) was specifically designed for Forensic Specialists, Investigators, Evidence Response Teams, Identification Departments and Scent Dog Handlers. The Scent Transfer Unit allows law enforcement to collect evidence from any item without destroying fingerprints on the item, collect trace evidence at a crime scene without contamination, collect scent evidence from hard to access places not accessible to a search dog and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.
The STU-100 was designed and built to assist law enforcement with the collection of scent and trace evidence. It provides a method of preserving evidence for extended periods of time because scent is evidence. The STU-100 requires common sense, good judgement, a sound working knowledge of scent and what it takes to protect it from contamination. Properly handled and operated, the STU-100 can produce unbelievable results.
History of the STU100
Very first Scent Transfer Unit --- The Scent machine"The Scent Machine" In the late 80'S I tried using a vacuum process to collect the scent into a sterile gauze pad that I could move around and better yet, I could collect the scent and keep it for long periods of time. A number of 110 models were tested. I called them "Scent Transfer Machines" however as with most first inventions they were big, heavy, cumbersome and while they did the job well they were difficult to handle.
Larry Harris"STU100" This is Larry Harris, Bill Tolhurst's Partner with his prototype version of the STU.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/bigT/STU100.html
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More info here, citing a 90% alert rate in the dogs involved in the tests.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ppDNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=stu100+cadaver&source=bl&ots=CvGbDqKZ9v&sig=ACfU3U2Qr-6Z_beAzgvtOGeiubakv_bkXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk08zln_7mAhUuVxUIHUnICyYQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=stu100%20cadaver&f=false
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More info here, citing a 90% alert rate in the dogs involved in the tests.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ppDNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=stu100+cadaver&source=bl&ots=CvGbDqKZ9v&sig=ACfU3U2Qr-6Z_beAzgvtOGeiubakv_bkXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk08zln_7mAhUuVxUIHUnICyYQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=stu100%20cadaver&f=false
In those tests the gauze pads had direct contact with the cadaver, rather than the remote collection of scent contained in the air around the cadaver. UK law does not permit the use of the former for training cadaver dogs in UK.
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The primary use of the STU-100 was to collect the scent from human remains for potential evidential use. It was estimated that sterile gauze pads could hold the evidence for 11 years.
The sample was taken from the air around the human remains and the sterile gauze pad that captured the scent was then taken to be stored in glass jars as evidence.
I believe Mr Grime may have witnessed this process and realised it may be a way to enhance Eddies abilities to recognise the scent that may be in the environment around where a dead body has been rather than a dead body itself.
Thus Eddies was trained using these gauze pads away from any actual human remains and Mr Grime obviously had the opinion that it enhanced Eddies abilities as he unilaterally added the famous E to VRD.
Mark Harrison could have known Mr Grime was working on an enhancement that wasn’t focused on the location of a body but the location of scent only and so called Mr Grime, Eddie and Keela over to Portugal. This would address some of the anomalies that exist with the use of the dogs.
1. Why use a VRD at all. Everyone knew there was no possibility of a cadaver still being in situ at the apartment.
2.Why fly Eddie over from the USA at all, why not use one of the many other UK that were trained to locate human remains.( Can someone verify this is true and not the he flew from the UK)
3. I always wondered why Mr Grime went on for so long in his statement about the STU-100 as it was never used in Portugal and seemed to have no relevance.
IMO it appears Grime emphasised the use of STU-100 as evidence that Eddie was trained to alert to remnant human cadaver scent when no body was in situ. Other UK cadaver dogs, which could only be trained on decomposing pig remains, had not received this enhancement during their training ergo, on paper, Eddie had superior capabilities to standard UK dogs.
Mark Harrison did recommend in his report that both the area around the OC creche should be examined by Eddie & Keela and a team of VRD's should be deployed on the land to the east of Luz. Neither of those deployments took place, for reasons unknown.
With regards to residual scent from human cadavers & the difficulties involved in getting a jury to accept alerts without bodies as an accepted science, the Casey Anthony trial is an excellent example of just how much more research is still required. There is a good white paper here https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=scitech which is lengthy but well worth a read.
There are also links to further research papers here regarding remote collection of scents.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51741220_Creation_of_training_aids_for_human_remains_detection_canines_utilizing_a_non-contact_dynamic_airflow_volatile_concentration_technique
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Answer - no ( I didn't know the answer to the question when I asked it).
STU-100
( Scent Transfer Unit )
What is the STU-100 ? The Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) was specifically designed for Forensic Specialists, Investigators, Evidence Response Teams, Identification Departments and Scent Dog Handlers. The Scent Transfer Unit allows law enforcement to collect evidence from any item without destroying fingerprints on the item, collect trace evidence at a crime scene without contamination, collect scent evidence from hard to access places not accessible to a search dog and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.
The STU-100 was designed and built to assist law enforcement with the collection of scent and trace evidence. It provides a method of preserving evidence for extended periods of time because scent is evidence. The STU-100 requires common sense, good judgement, a sound working knowledge of scent and what it takes to protect it from contamination. Properly handled and operated, the STU-100 can produce unbelievable results.
History of the STU100
Very first Scent Transfer Unit --- The Scent machine"The Scent Machine" In the late 80'S I tried using a vacuum process to collect the scent into a sterile gauze pad that I could move around and better yet, I could collect the scent and keep it for long periods of time. A number of 110 models were tested. I called them "Scent Transfer Machines" however as with most first inventions they were big, heavy, cumbersome and while they did the job well they were difficult to handle.
Larry Harris"STU100" This is Larry Harris, Bill Tolhurst's Partner with his prototype version of the STU.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/bigT/STU100.html
Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage? An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.
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Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage? An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.
It was being used in research in 2011.
http://europepmc.org/article/med/21367548
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Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage? An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.
I hadn't heard of it and it hasn't featured in any of the other cases I've looked at.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16882219/
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IMO it appears Grime emphasised the use of STU-100 as evidence that Eddie was trained to alert to remnant human cadaver scent when no body was in situ. Other UK cadaver dogs, which could only be trained on decomposing pig remains, had not received this enhancement during their training ergo, on paper, Eddie had superior capabilities to standard UK dogs.
Mark Harrison did recommend in his report that both the area around the OC creche should be examined by Eddie & Keela and a team of VRD's should be deployed on the land to the east of Luz. Neither of those deployments took place, for reasons unknown.
With regards to residual scent from human cadavers & the difficulties involved in getting a jury to accept alerts without bodies as an accepted science, the Casey Anthony trial is an excellent example of just how much more research is still required. There is a good white paper here https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=scitech which is lengthy but well worth a read.
There are also links to further research papers here regarding remote collection of scents.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51741220_Creation_of_training_aids_for_human_remains_detection_canines_utilizing_a_non-contact_dynamic_airflow_volatile_concentration_technique
You may be right, this thread is more about opinions that the other one I started but as I stated above the wording of Mr Grimes statement to me suggests the enhancement was more the the no contact than the human remains. When I read that bit it seams clear to me as he mentions the human remains in a previous sentence. But there is no guarantee my opinion is more correct than yours.
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You may be right, this thread is more about opinions that the other one I started but as I stated above the wording of Mr Grimes statement to me suggests the enhancement was more the the no contact than the human remains. When I read that bit it seams clear to me as he mentions the human remains in a previous sentence. But there is no guarantee my opinion is more correct than yours.
IMO if you look at Harrison's report to the PJ dated 23/7/07, you can understand why Eddie & Keela were the only dog team who could have gone to Luz to carry out the recommended searches. Eddie was the only dog who'd reportedly received any training on actual human residual cadaver scent & Keela was a unique CSI blood dog, No other UK dog team fulfilled the search requirement criteria, irrespective of Eddie & Keela's unconfirmed competence in their disciplines. Harrison's conflict of interest between his NPIA position & his role in Keela's training was never mentioned.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
*snipped*
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
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IMO if you look at Harrison's report to the PJ dated 23/7/07, you can understand why Eddie & Keela were the only dog team who could have gone to Luz to carry out the recommended searches. Eddie was the only dog who'd reportedly received any training on actual human residual cadaver scent & Keela was a unique CSI blood dog, No other UK dog team fulfilled the search requirement criteria, irrespective of Eddie & Keela's unconfirmed competence in their disciplines. Harrison's conflict of interest between his NPIA position & his role in Keela's training was never mentioned.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
*snipped*
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
Misty, I respect your opinion, its just as plausible as mine but for me I don't see the enhancement when US dogs trained on humans would alert to humans and pigs and UK dogs trained on pigs would also react to humans and pigs. I guess the only people who know are Martin Grime and Mark Harrison.
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Do you have a cite from an independent source confirming US cadaver dogs alert to pig remains? AFAIK their training teaches them to ignore all non-human remains.
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Do you have a cite from an independent source confirming US cadaver dogs alert to pig remains? AFAIK their training teaches them to ignore all non-human remains.
Its in Martin Grime's personal profile
"These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced
pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
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Its in Martin Grime's personal profile
"These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced
pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
That's not an independent source.....
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That's not an independent source.....
How so?
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How so?
Because what Grime did was written by Grime himself, with no independent corroboration.
If Grime's dog was being trained in US on human cadavers, when did the trainee become the trainer introducing pigs?
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Because what Grime did was written by Grime himself, with no independent corroboration.
If Grime's dog was being trained in US on human cadavers, when did the trainee become the trainer introducing pigs?
So did he make it up? In the end its about opinions, your very welcome to yours and hopefully I can have mine.
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So did he make it up? In the end its about opinions, your very welcome to yours and hopefully I can have mine.
I don't if he made it up, hence my request for an independent source verifying US cadaver dogs trained only on human remains would alert to pig remains. It would be helpful to verify this as it would solve the mystery of why a US cadaver dog found a living human in a disused pig pen.
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I don't if he made it up, hence my request for an independent source verifying US cadaver dogs trained only on human remains would alert to pig remains. It would be helpful to verify this as it would solve the mystery of why a US cadaver dog found a living human in a disused pig pen.
I really don't fancy trawling the internet for the data you want, if you don't like the Martin Grime cite please disregard my opinion, I wont be offended. I am open to education on the matter. I promise you my views are not dogmatic and will take any info that is offered in the spirit is given.
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Cadaver dogs. Also known as human remains detection dogs, have been trained to smell death. Specifically, the dogs are trained to smell decomposition, which means they can locate body parts, tissue, blood, and bone
A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonized human corpse.
https://coronertalk.com/hrd-dogs
Scientists Identify Gases Unique To Rotting Pigs And Human Bodies
After we die, our rotting bodies release specific types of gases into the environment. When a body goes missing, dogs can sniff for these gases to track it down. But forensic scientists are still trying to nail down the exact “smell of death” that is unique to humans. Now, a team in Belgium has identified seven compounds that only pigs and people produce late into decomposition.
When a body first begins to decompose, enzymes dissolve the cells from within. Next comes bloating and putrefaction, giving the corpse a greenish tinge. Active decay starts when the skin breaks and the corpse begins to liquefy. Soon, only shreds of flesh cling to the body. By the end, only hair and bones are left. Figuring out which chemicals our bodies release at these different stages would also allow cadaver dogs to be trained to find bodies at specific points in their decay.
In the new study, scientists examined a menagerie of remains from six humans and 26 animals that included pigs and other mammals, fish, frogs, turtles, and various birds. The team sampled the gases surrounding the remains at nine and 12 months of decomposition.
Previously, the scientists had investigated the corpses at six months of decomposition, and came up with eight compounds only released by human and pig bodies. The new work confirmed that seven of them are still hanging around later in decomposition.
"This means that these 7 human and pig specific markers can be used in the development of training aids for cadaver dogs during the whole decomposition process," wrote the authors, who published the findings on June 2 in the journal Forensic Science International. The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.
When the team sampled bodies after six months, the bodies had already passed into advanced decay (the bits of flesh stage). After 12 months, the corpses had not yet dried out, so it’s not yet certain whether bodies still release these compounds very late in decomposition. The remains also stayed tucked in glass jars, so scientists will have to investigate whether changes in moisture or temperature that occur out in the open influence which chemicals are released.
Currently, cadaver dogs are trained on the stench of compounds such as cadaverine and putrescine. But dogs sometimes fail to pick up on real body parts, indicating that these training scents do not capture the full complexity of the real decomposition odor.
"A human specific marker can be used to train cadaver dogs more efficiently and therefore win time to locate a body," the authors wrote in their previous report. "Moreover, when a human specific marker is found, it might be possible to develop a portable device that is sensitive enough to locate human remains."
https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
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It was being used in research in 2011.
http://europepmc.org/article/med/21367548
Thanks Misty, you can be relied upon to come up with the goods.
I've had a quick glance at the link you provided and I don't know if I am taking in the full significance of this equipment as far as victim recovery dogs working in the field are concerned or is the Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) primarily for use in the training of the dogs.
I get sticking a rod into the ground releases volatile organic compounds (VOCs) for example, which if collected might possibly be verified in a lab as residual scent from human remains but I think this is already a tried and tested method for the recovery of human remains.
I am not convinced the STU-100 was developed to locate where a body might have been and even if it had been in 2007 the research was in its infancy.
I think the ultimate value of the STU-100 is that it bypasses the requirement for VRDs to be trained using decomposing pigs but allows them to be trained exclusively on human remains in a legal and ethical manner.
What does anyone else think?
Snip
Abstract
Human remains detection (HRD) canines are trained to locate human remains in a variety of locations and situations which include minimal quantities of remains that may be buried, submerged or extremely old.
The aptitude of HRD canines is affected by factors such as training, familiarity with the scent source and environmental conditions.
Access to appropriate training aids is a common issue among HRD canine handlers due to overly legal restrictions, difficulty in access and storage, and the potential biological hazards stemming from the use of actual human remains as training aids.
For this reason, we propose a unique approach of training aid creation, utilizing non-contact, dynamic air-flow odor concentration onto sorbent materials.
Following concentration, the sorbent material retains the odor from the scent source composed of volatile organic compounds.
The sorbent material containing the odor can then be utilized as a canine training aid.
Training materials prepared in this manner were tested under a variety of conditions with many HRD canines to demonstrate the efficacy of the new training aids.
A high level of correct canine responses to the new training aids was achieved, approaching 90%, with minimal false positives.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073811004701
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Cadaver dogs. Also known as human remains detection dogs, have been trained to smell death. Specifically, the dogs are trained to smell decomposition, which means they can locate body parts, tissue, blood, and bone
A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonized human corpse.
https://coronertalk.com/hrd-dogs
Scientists Identify Gases Unique To Rotting Pigs And Human Bodies
After we die, our rotting bodies release specific types of gases into the environment. When a body goes missing, dogs can sniff for these gases to track it down. But forensic scientists are still trying to nail down the exact “smell of death” that is unique to humans. Now, a team in Belgium has identified seven compounds that only pigs and people produce late into decomposition.
When a body first begins to decompose, enzymes dissolve the cells from within. Next comes bloating and putrefaction, giving the corpse a greenish tinge. Active decay starts when the skin breaks and the corpse begins to liquefy. Soon, only shreds of flesh cling to the body. By the end, only hair and bones are left. Figuring out which chemicals our bodies release at these different stages would also allow cadaver dogs to be trained to find bodies at specific points in their decay.
In the new study, scientists examined a menagerie of remains from six humans and 26 animals that included pigs and other mammals, fish, frogs, turtles, and various birds. The team sampled the gases surrounding the remains at nine and 12 months of decomposition.
Previously, the scientists had investigated the corpses at six months of decomposition, and came up with eight compounds only released by human and pig bodies. The new work confirmed that seven of them are still hanging around later in decomposition.
"This means that these 7 human and pig specific markers can be used in the development of training aids for cadaver dogs during the whole decomposition process," wrote the authors, who published the findings on June 2 in the journal Forensic Science International. The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.
When the team sampled bodies after six months, the bodies had already passed into advanced decay (the bits of flesh stage). After 12 months, the corpses had not yet dried out, so it’s not yet certain whether bodies still release these compounds very late in decomposition. The remains also stayed tucked in glass jars, so scientists will have to investigate whether changes in moisture or temperature that occur out in the open influence which chemicals are released.
Currently, cadaver dogs are trained on the stench of compounds such as cadaverine and putrescine. But dogs sometimes fail to pick up on real body parts, indicating that these training scents do not capture the full complexity of the real decomposition odor.
"A human specific marker can be used to train cadaver dogs more efficiently and therefore win time to locate a body," the authors wrote in their previous report. "Moreover, when a human specific marker is found, it might be possible to develop a portable device that is sensitive enough to locate human remains."
https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
Thank you. Now we're making progress. Imagine the dilemma for US & UK juries when they are told that cadaver dogs don't just alert to human remains but those of pigs too. Therefore, the science does not support cadaver dog alerts as exclusive to human remains. That also explains why a cadaver dog located a living man in a disused pig pen. https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-334608915/missing-man-found-ill-but-alive-eddie-jones-71
https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-334608915/missing-man-found-ill-but-alive-eddie-jones-71
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Thanks Misty, you can be relied upon to come up with the goods.
I've had a quick glance at the link you provided and I don't know if I am taking in the full significance of this equipment as far as victim recovery dogs working in the field are concerned or is the Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) primarily for use in the training of the dogs.
I get sticking a rod into the ground releases volatile organic compounds (VOCs) for example, which if collected might possibly be verified in a lab as residual scent from human remains but I think this is already a tried and tested method for the recovery of human remains.
I am not convinced the STU-100 was developed to locate where a body might have been and even if it had been in 2007 the research was in its infancy.
I think the ultimate value of the STU-100 is that it bypasses the requirement for VRDs to be trained using decomposing pigs but allows them to be trained exclusively on human remains in a legal and ethical manner.
What does anyone else think?
Snip
Abstract
Human remains detection (HRD) canines are trained to locate human remains in a variety of locations and situations which include minimal quantities of remains that may be buried, submerged or extremely old.
The aptitude of HRD canines is affected by factors such as training, familiarity with the scent source and environmental conditions.
Access to appropriate training aids is a common issue among HRD canine handlers due to overly legal restrictions, difficulty in access and storage, and the potential biological hazards stemming from the use of actual human remains as training aids.
For this reason, we propose a unique approach of training aid creation, utilizing non-contact, dynamic air-flow odor concentration onto sorbent materials.
Following concentration, the sorbent material retains the odor from the scent source composed of volatile organic compounds.
The sorbent material containing the odor can then be utilized as a canine training aid.
Training materials prepared in this manner were tested under a variety of conditions with many HRD canines to demonstrate the efficacy of the new training aids.
A high level of correct canine responses to the new training aids was achieved, approaching 90%, with minimal false positives.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073811004701
Grime spoke briefly about remote air sampling in section 6.3 of his 2018 white paper (page 30/187) but it's unclear if such methods are standard current practice or merely proposals for the future. http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf
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Thank you. Now we're making progress. Imagine the dilemma for US & UK juries when they are told that cadaver dogs don't just alert to human remains but those of pigs too. Therefore, the science does not support cadaver dog alerts as exclusive to human remains. That also explains why a cadaver dog located a living man in a disused pig pen. https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-334608915/missing-man-found-ill-but-alive-eddie-jones-71
https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-334608915/missing-man-found-ill-but-alive-eddie-jones-71
The dog never alerted though,so no cadaver ,it was trained to find.
Whisenant said the outcome was better than he expected. Batten said she was prepared to hear Taza bark, her alert that she had found someone dead.
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IMO it appears Grime emphasised the use of STU-100 as evidence that Eddie was trained to alert to remnant human cadaver scent when no body was in situ. Other UK cadaver dogs, which could only be trained on decomposing pig remains, had not received this enhancement during their training ergo, on paper, Eddie had superior capabilities to standard UK dogs.
Mark Harrison did recommend in his report that both the area around the OC creche should be examined by Eddie & Keela and a team of VRD's should be deployed on the land to the east of Luz. Neither of those deployments took place, for reasons unknown.
With regards to residual scent from human cadavers & the difficulties involved in getting a jury to accept alerts without bodies as an accepted science, the Casey Anthony trial is an excellent example of just how much more research is still required. There is a good white paper here https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=scitech which is lengthy but well worth a read.
There are also links to further research papers here regarding remote collection of scents.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51741220_Creation_of_training_aids_for_human_remains_detection_canines_utilizing_a_non-contact_dynamic_airflow_volatile_concentration_technique
The human remains must have been in the later stage of decomposition then because it is only then that human cadaver gas is the same as a pig.
In my opinion Eddie could not have smelt cadaver scent in 5a as Madeleine if she had died in 5a would not have given off the gas which a cadaver would release in the later stages of decomposition.
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The human remains must have been in the later stage of decomposition then because it is only then that human cadaver gas is the same as a pig.
In my opinion Eddie could not have smelt cadaver scent in 5a as Madeleine if she had died in 5a would not have given off the gas which a cadaver would release in the later stages of decomposition.
Who says?
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Who says?
Scientists - https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
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Scientists - https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
They found 7 or 8 compounds common to human and pig decomposition. There are hundreds of chemicals given off when a human decomposes. There's a long way to go yet.
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The human remains must have been in the later stage of decomposition then because it is only then that human cadaver gas is the same as a pig.
In my opinion Eddie could not have smelt cadaver scent in 5a as Madeleine if she had died in 5a would not have given off the gas which a cadaver would release in the later stages of decomposition.
Eddie has detected cadaver scent in many cases so that is nonsense. That was his job to detect cadaver scent i.e. Enhanced dog.
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Eddie has detected cadaver scent in many cases so that is nonsense. That was his job to detect cadaver scent i.e. Enhanced dog.
If you look at the evidence it takes time for the scent to become detectable.
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They found 7 or 8 compounds common to human and pig decomposition. There are hundreds of chemicals given off when a human decomposes. There's a long way to go yet.
They found 7or8 compounds which at the later stages of decomposition give off a gas that smelt the same as the gas from a human cadaver at the later stages of decomposition. At the earlier stages there was no gas that what the same, get it right.
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Eddie has detected cadaver scent in many cases so that is nonsense. That was his job to detect cadaver scent i.e. Enhanced dog.
If he smelt cadaver scent in many cases then the cadaver must have been in the later stages of decomposition as then the gas would smell the same as a pig in the later stages of decomposition.
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They found 7or8 compounds which at the later stages of decomposition give off a gas that smelt the same as the gas from a human cadaver at the later stages of decomposition. At the earlier stages there was no gas that what the same, get it right.
Where did it say that?
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They found 7or8 compounds which at the later stages of decomposition give off a gas that smelt the same as the gas from a human cadaver at the later stages of decomposition. At the earlier stages there was no gas that what the same, get it right.
You repeatedly get it wrong. These compounds are only released by human and pig bodies! 7 compounds are still present after a year. 8 compounds after 6 months.
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You repeatedly get it wrong. These compounds are only released by human and pig bodies! 7 compounds are still present after a year. 8 compounds after 6 months.
The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.
https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
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The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.
https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
You asked for a cite... Did you read it or do you just ignore that which contradicts your view... That's the opposite of openminded
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The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.
https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/
Yes, except the article is dated 2016, nine years after Eddie supposedly alerted.
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You repeatedly get it wrong. These compounds are only released by human and pig bodies! 7 compounds are still present after a year. 8 compounds after 6 months.
I am not getting it wrong, the compounds are released as a gas by pig and human in the LATER stages of decomposition.
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I am not getting it wrong, the compounds are released as a gas by pig and human in the LATER stages of decomposition.
You've just got it wrong again.
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Yes, except the article is dated 2016, nine years after Eddie supposedly alerted.
The dogs know what they're looking for. The scientists are trying to find out what's in it. Think of how many times scientists have had to play catch-up. St John's Wort has been used medicinally for millennia, but no-one could explain how and why it worked. Scientists are still not sure, but those who have used it throughout history knew it helped people.
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del
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I am not getting it wrong, the compounds are released as a gas by pig and human in the LATER stages of decomposition.
So clearly they're not the only compounds the dogs alert to.
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The dogs know what they're looking for. The scientists are trying to find out what's in it. Think of how many times scientists have had to play catch-up. St John's Wort has been used medicinally for millennia, but no-one could explain how and why it worked. Scientists are still not sure, but those who have used it throughout history knew it helped people.
But not always, it’s a bit hit and miss, just like the dogs.
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IMO if you look at Harrison's report to the PJ dated 23/7/07, you can understand why Eddie & Keela were the only dog team who could have gone to Luz to carry out the recommended searches. Eddie was the only dog who'd reportedly received any training on actual human residual cadaver scent & Keela was a unique CSI blood dog, No other UK dog team fulfilled the search requirement criteria, irrespective of Eddie & Keela's unconfirmed competence in their disciplines. Harrison's conflict of interest between his NPIA position & his role in Keela's training was never mentioned.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
What conflict of interest?
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What conflict of interest?
It seems blood and cadaver dogs were the brainchild of Mark Harrison in 2005
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It seems blood and cadaver dogs were the brainchild of Mark Harrison in 2005
A news article from that time doesn't make it clear.
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It seems blood and cadaver dogs were the brainchild of Mark Harrison in 2005
Why wouldn't you use dogs with a proven record,especially Eddie which the thread is about.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/top-sniffer-dog-to-join-maddy-search-28397218.html
Used across the world for his accuracy, seven-year-old hound Eddie helped police put Trevor Hamilton behind bars in 2006 after the victim recovery dog found 63-year- old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie, who works for South Yorkshire police, also located Attracta's body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
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Why wouldn't you use dogs with a proven record,especially Eddie which the thread is about.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/top-sniffer-dog-to-join-maddy-search-28397218.html
Used across the world for his accuracy, seven-year-old hound Eddie helped police put Trevor Hamilton behind bars in 2006 after the victim recovery dog found 63-year- old Attracta Harron's blood on the 23-year-old murderer's burned-out Hyundai.
Eddie, who works for South Yorkshire police, also located Attracta's body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
One case doesn't make a proven track record ...as I've asked before... Just how useful has Eddie actually been... Where, are, all his success stories
Just checked... It was residual scent the Harrison was responsible for investigating... And trace elements of blood
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So Eddie was a victim recovery dog... But there were very few victims... One it seems.
The idea was to extend the repertoire... Enter the residual scent dog
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But not always, it’s a bit hit and miss, just like the dogs.
But quite consistent in their alerts in this case, eh?
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But quite consistent in their alerts in this case, eh?
Consistent? In what sense consistent?
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Alerts to the family - car, clothes, wardrobe etc. Murat's property and vehicles got no alerts.
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I think Eddie was quite an excitable dog, he showed that when he got fed up of sniffing the clothes, he suddenly picked up items off the ground, three items next to each other, isn't that strange? He did the same to Cuddle Cat picked it up shook it and abandoned it. Sorry that is not how a cadaver dog should behave. As for the other alerts called back many times to the bedroom, finally alerted but to what? Other families stayed there after the McCann's left and we all know Eddie can alert to blood which could have been on an item and then taken away. The car? It was a hired car so who knows what could have been in the back of it.
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I think Eddie was quite an excitable dog, he showed that when he got fed up of sniffing the clothes, he suddenly picked up items off the ground, three items next to each other, isn't that strange? He did the same to Cuddle Cat picked it up shook it and abandoned it. Sorry that is not how a cadaver dog should behave. As for the other alerts called back many times to the bedroom, finally alerted but to what? Other families stayed there after the McCann's left and we all know Eddie can alert to blood which could have been on an item and then taken away. The car? It was a hired car so who knows what could have been in the back of it.
Would you have a cadaver dog look for someone you cared for who was missing in similar circumstances?
I would. I'd try anything. I wouldn't need to research them. I'd stop short of getting a South African with a mullet bring a magic box with a house brick in it to search with a single hair, conversely.
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Would you have a cadaver dog look for someone you cared for who was missing in similar circumstances?
I would. I'd try anything. I wouldn't need to research them. I'd stop short of getting a South African with a mullet bring a magic box with a house brick in it to search with a single hair, conversely.
I would probably try anything, though I don't know if I would believe the evidence, not if I saw a dog having to be called back numerous times and tossing articles into the air.
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Alerts to the family - car, clothes, wardrobe etc. Murat's property and vehicles got no alerts.
The dog wasn't called back several times to places and objects it had previously ignored... No cadaver in 5a and theres no evidence I'm wrong
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The dig wasn't called back several times to places and objects it had previously ignored... No cadaver in 5a and theres no evidence I'm wrong
Well, there isn't now.
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Alerts to the family - car, clothes, wardrobe etc. Murat's property and vehicles got no alerts.
Both dogs were deployed in other locations in Luz but only 'alerted' in one location ... hardly seems possible does it for dogs one of which very definitely recognised and picked up the substance he trained on and the other unable to locate the substance she was trained on in places where children have been running around apparently impervious to sustaining the slightest scrape or graze.
Snip
I did however see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
So in other words ... had the bin been emptied instead of snaffling the pork which was not classed as a false alert because the dog had found what he had been trained to find ... it is highly likely the dog would have alerted to the residual scent and !!!😍😍BINGO😍😍!!!
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Would you have a cadaver dog look for someone you cared for who was missing in similar circumstances?
I would. I'd try anything. I wouldn't need to research them. I'd stop short of getting a South African with a mullet bring a magic box with a house brick in it to search with a single hair, conversely.
It is normal for British police to use police dogs in circumstances when it is deemed appropriate.
In her book, Kate McCann bemoans the fact that the British police offered trained dogs which were refused by the Portuguese.
Snip
Snip
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id157.htm
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11103.msg563710#msg563710
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Would you have a cadaver dog look for someone you cared for who was missing in similar circumstances?
I would. I'd try anything. I wouldn't need to research them. I'd stop short of getting a South African with a mullet bring a magic box with a house brick in it to search with a single hair, conversely.
Would you use a cadaver dog to look for your missing relative in your own apartment?
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Would you use a cadaver dog to look for your missing relative in your own apartment?
Everywhere reasonable.
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Everywhere reasonable.
Would searching your own apartment be reasonable? And if the dog alerted in your apartment then what?
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I think the public were sold a pup....
eddie and keela who had solved 200 cases...and never been wrong...problem is it wasnt true
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I think the public were sold a pup....
eddie and keela who had solved 200 cases...and never been wrong...problem is it wasnt true
What is the truth then?
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What is the truth then?
from grimes Cv for the dogs there seems to be ony one case ...Attracta Harron where the dogs were instrumnetal in solving the case....Im happy to be told if theres more...with cites. Ferryman recieved an FOI reply which stated the dogs were only deployed 35 times in 5 years.
we dont know what the dogs record is ....unconfirmed alerts are not verifiable ...they may or may not be correct
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Alerts to the family - car, clothes, wardrobe etc. Murat's property and vehicles got no alerts.
Not even to blood.
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What is the truth then?
Probably exactly the same truth which was exhibited so amply at the dogs' next deployment in Haute de la Garenne former children's home in Jersey where it was alleged homicides had taken place..
Eddie alerted exitedly and often - most of us have seen the video - he may have located milk teeth, cremated human ashes legitimately scattered and semen or blood on a tissue. What he most certainly did not alert to was residual scent from a human cadaver.
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from grimes Cv for the dogs there seems to be ony one case ...Attracta Harron where the dogs were instrumnetal in solving the case....Im happy to be told if theres more...with cites. Ferryman recieved an FOI reply which stated the dogs were only deployed 35 times in 5 years.
we dont know what the dogs record is ....unconfirmed alerts are not verifiable ...they may or may not be correct
Amanda Edwards
Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
On the late afternoon of April 15, while Cortis remained in custody, tracker dogs drew officers' attention to a spot on a building site where Cortis had worked as a plasterer.
A tent was set up over the area and police intended to come back the next day to dig.
The maximum period for which police can keep a person in custody is 96 hours, but Cortis was released after 78 hours in the early morning of April 16 as they did not consider they had enough evidence to charge him.
He was found hanging at 1.25pm by his mother-in-law, Theresa Tavener. Twenty minutes later at the building site police found a plastic sheet which had contained a new mattress which Cortis bought after the murder.
Later when the plastic sheet was removed it was found to contain Miss Edwards' body, her wrists and ankes bound with tape.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/23/ukcrime.stevenmorris
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Amanda Edwards
Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
On the late afternoon of April 15, while Cortis remained in custody, tracker dogs drew officers' attention to a spot on a building site where Cortis had worked as a plasterer.
A tent was set up over the area and police intended to come back the next day to dig.
The maximum period for which police can keep a person in custody is 96 hours, but Cortis was released after 78 hours in the early morning of April 16 as they did not consider they had enough evidence to charge him.
He was found hanging at 1.25pm by his mother-in-law, Theresa Tavener. Twenty minutes later at the building site police found a plastic sheet which had contained a new mattress which Cortis bought after the murder.
Later when the plastic sheet was removed it was found to contain Miss Edwards' body, her wrists and ankes bound with tape.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/23/ukcrime.stevenmorris
In both cases the search resulted in the victim recovery dog finding a body. That is what they are trained to do isn't it.
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Bodies are not always easy to find when the dogs are brought in months later (bodies are moved by then *%87). Eddie did find the body of Bob Rose. Eddie's alerts in the Prout and Parker cases were significant but the bodies were only later discovered. They were circumstantial evidence cases like this one will be.
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Bodies are not always easy to find when the dogs are brought in months later (bodies are moved by then *%87). Eddie did find the body of Bob Rose. Eddie's alerts in the Prout and Parker cases were significant but the bodies were only later discovered. They were circumstantial evidence cases like this one will be.
We know Eddie alerted to a piece of pork he removed from a bin. He alerted behind a couch possibly to blood since Keela did too. He alerted to material on the Renault key fob which was probably blood since Keela alerted to it too.
There is no way of knowing what the rest of his alerts indicated but there was definitely nothing to suggest they had anything to do with Madeleine McCann.
In Jersey his positive alerts were to blood/semen?? on a tissue ~ milk teeth ~ a known person's scattered ashes ~ a couple of very old bones ~ and a coconut shell?
We've seen the video of him barking at shadows inside the building and we know there is not a scintilla of anything to suggest why he did so.
I don't think Eddie was ever 'wonderdog' but if people want to continue to believe it that is fine by me ... I have never seen anything in his promotional videos to convince me. But my viewing of them has strongly suggested the contrary.
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Bodies are not always easy to find when the dogs are brought in months later (bodies are moved by then *%87). Eddie did find the body of Bob Rose. Eddie's alerts in the Prout and Parker cases were significant but the bodies were only later discovered. They were circumstantial evidence cases like this one will be.
Can you tell me what the odds are for a cadaver dog to alert to three articles of clothing next to each other on the floor? Well I say alert but it was obvious he was playing with them. Yes it is difficult to find a body after months, especially when three other families stayed in 5a after the McCann's.
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It's difficult because a body could be many miles away months later. Eddie alerted to those items of clothes (Keela the blood dog did not!). I don't need to look at odds only concentrate on the evidence.
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It's difficult because a body could be many miles away months later. Eddie alerted to those items of clothes (Keela the blood dog did not!). I don't need to look at odds only concentrate on the evidence.
Precisely ...they didn't find any
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Precisely ...they didn't find any
They may have found the vestiges thereof.
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They may have found the vestiges thereof.
You can speculate but the bottom line is the dogs provided nothing of any use in this case... Neither did they in Jersey.
In fact looking at the CV provided by Grime they have had very very limited success
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You can speculate but the bottom line is the dogs provided nothing of any use in this case... Neither did they in Jersey.
In fact looking at the CV provided by Grime they have had very very limited success
Seems speculating in this manner is successful, as per Gilroy.
Besides, even 'very, very limited success' is better than nowt. So, by your admission, deploying them is better than not.
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Seems speculating in this manner is successful, as per Gilroy.
Besides, even 'very, very limited success' is better than nowt. So, by your admission, deploying them is better than not.
I've seen a couple of reports from senior investigators saying the dogs have not contributed and in fact caused confusion
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I've seen a couple of reports from senior investigators saying the dogs have not contributed and in fact caused confusion
I've seen one that swung the case, rightly or wrongly, whether you agree with the admissibility or not.
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I've seen one that swung the case, rightly or wrongly, whether you agree with the admissibility or not.
You've seen one... Isn't that a bit pathetic... One that was questioned by the experts..
In Jersey the final report was critical of the action taken due to the alerts which resulted in tons of earth being moved and nothing found.
Looking at the evidence the ability of the dogs was overhyped...
In Luz it looks as if the alerts took the investigation in the wrong direction
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You've seen one... Isn't that a bit pathetic... One that was questioned by the experts..
In Jersey the final report was critical of the action taken due to the alerts which resulted in tons of earth being moved and nothing found.
Looking at the evidence the ability of the dogs was overhyped...
In Luz it looks as if the alerts took the investigation in the wrong direction
No.
Are you in favour of not using them any more?
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No.
Are you in favour of not using them any more?
I'm in favour of using them for what they are trained for
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I'm in favour of using them for what they are trained for
Phew.. Just for a minute I thought all specific canine breeding, dating back to the infancy of Agrarian Society, perhaps 10,000 years, was in vain.
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Phew.. Just for a minute I thought all specific canine breeding, dating back to the infancy of Agrarian Society, perhaps 10,000 years, was in vain.
You should know my posts are based on sound logic and evidence... Remnant scent detection it seems goes back to 2005 and was the idea of Mark Harrison from what I can see..
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Amanda Edwards
Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
On the late afternoon of April 15, while Cortis remained in custody, tracker dogs drew officers' attention to a spot on a building site where Cortis had worked as a plasterer.
A tent was set up over the area and police intended to come back the next day to dig.
The maximum period for which police can keep a person in custody is 96 hours, but Cortis was released after 78 hours in the early morning of April 16 as they did not consider they had enough evidence to charge him.
He was found hanging at 1.25pm by his mother-in-law, Theresa Tavener. Twenty minutes later at the building site police found a plastic sheet which had contained a new mattress which Cortis bought after the murder.
Later when the plastic sheet was removed it was found to contain Miss Edwards' body, her wrists and ankes bound with tape.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/23/ukcrime.stevenmorris
Alerted to blood then.
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disappearance.
He said Cortis unwittingly led police to the spot he had buried her body. The father-of-two told detectives he'd bought a new mattress and dumped the old one in a skip at The Knoll, Malmesbury.
No mention of the dog finding the burial site
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disappearance.
He said Cortis unwittingly led police to the spot he had buried her body. The father-of-two told detectives he'd bought a new mattress and dumped the old one in a skip at The Knoll, Malmesbury.
No mention of the dog finding the burial site
These dogs are amazing.
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You should know my posts are based on sound logic and evidence... Remnant scent detection it seems goes back to 2005 and was the idea of Mark Harrison from what I can see..
I don't know what 'remnant scent detection' means, but there were cadaver detection dogs before 2005.
https://www.forces.net/feature/dogs-trained-find-bodies
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I don't know what 'remnant scent detection' means, but there were cadaver detection dogs before 2005.
https://www.forces.net/feature/dogs-trained-find-bodies
You don't know what remnant scent detection is. ..where have you been for the past 13 years. If you want to know, why I mention 2005 read Grimes white paper
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Alerted to blood then.
And alerted to cadaver scent on building tools and found the body.
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And alerted to cadaver scent on building tools and found the body.
What's that now.. 3 in ten years
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You don't know what remnant scent detection is. ..where have you been for the past 13 years. If you want to know, why I mention 2005 read Grimes white paper
Is it what cadaver dogs do? If so, they were doing it before 2005.
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Is it what cadaver dogs do? If so, they were doing it before 2005.
it seems before 2005 they were VRD dogs....do you know what an HTTEDD dog is
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I don't know what 'remnant scent detection' means, but there were cadaver detection dogs before 2005.
https://www.forces.net/feature/dogs-trained-find-bodies
do you raed your own links......these are dogs trained to find bodies....but if you dont understand what remnant scent deteection is theres little hope of you understanding much more