Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on June 13, 2013, 11:50:44 PM
Title: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: John on June 13, 2013, 11:50:44 PM
So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Was Madeleine abducted or did she die as a result of an unfortunate accident as alleged by Gonçalo Amaral?
Was it an impossibility that the Smiths could ever have seen Gerry McCann that evening?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Rachel Granada on June 22, 2013, 08:26:59 PM
Have you seen the file that was passed to the Portuguese Attorney General, stephen?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2013, 08:31:34 PM
Now let's try again, what evidence is there of abduction ?
Since you know damn well if there was no abduction, the buck, as it should, passes to the Mccanns.
No where else.
Nice swerve there, steve!
Now let's try again. Did you see the entire case file that was passed to the PT AG, and if you weren't privy to the entire case file what makes you think that you know better than the Portuguese Attorney General?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 22, 2013, 08:53:00 PM
Now let's try again, what evidence is there of abduction ?
Since you know damn well if there was no abduction, the buck, as it should, passes to the Mccanns.
No where else.
You keep saying there is no evidence. The correct statement is no evidence was found. That doesn't mean it never existed. Even Amaral commented on the shortcomings of the forensic officers.
Other evidence is:-
Shutters left closed and then found to be open Window left closed and then found to be open A sighting by Jane Tanner A sighting by the Smiths.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Rachel Granada on June 22, 2013, 08:58:13 PM
You keep saying there is no evidence. The correct statement is no evidence was found. That doesn't mean it never existed. Even Amaral commented on the shortcomings of the forensic officers.
Other evidence is:-
Shutters left closed and then found to be open Window left closed and then found to be open A sighting by Jane Tanner A sighting by the Smiths.
Benice, there is also the sheer impossibility of the logistics that the McCanns are involved in Madeleine's fate. Madeleine was at the creche that day and was last seen at 5.30 IIRC? That left just 4.5 hours for the "cover up"to be put into place. Just impossible.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
You keep saying there is no evidence. The correct statement is no evidence was found. That doesn't mean it never existed. Even Amaral commented on the shortcomings of the forensic officers.
Other evidence is:-
Shutters left closed and then found to be open Window left closed and then found to be open A sighting by Jane Tanner A sighting by the Smiths.
The first two hearsay and unproven.
Tanner, now that one's a joke. The women with X-ray eyes, who can see in the near dark.
Mr. Smith, now who did he think he saw ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Rachel Granada on June 22, 2013, 09:01:56 PM
As a bye, but you already know this, the CFO list what happens as 'type of crime unknown'.
Now that includes other possibilities , whether you like it or not.
I posed two fairly straightforward questions. 1) Were you privy to the entire case file as seen by the PT AG and 2) what makes you think you know better than the PT AG.
So far you have swerved these questions. Readers, form your own conclusions.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 22, 2013, 09:08:26 PM
Now, pray tell, how do you know km didn't open the window and played with the shutters ?
Jane Tanner claimed she saw a man in the twilight.
How good is your vision in those conditions ?
By all accounts, the Mccanns and associates trampled the apartment, so don't blame the local police.
Put the blame for what happened solely where it belongs, the Mccanns.
How do you know KM DID open the window and play with the shutters? And why would she do that?
My vision is irrelevant, Jane Tanner saw what she saw - and there was need for her to lie about it.
I don't agree that when your child has been abducted you automatically morph into police officers. The McCanns and their friends behaved exactly how normal people would behave in those circumstances. On the other hand the Police officers who should have known better did NOT behave in the way THEY should have. Far from it.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 22, 2013, 11:12:18 PM
Now, pray tell, how do you know km didn't open the window and played with the shutters ?
Jane Tanner claimed she saw a man in the twilight.
How good is your vision in those conditions ?
By all accounts, the Mccanns and associates trampled the apartment, so don't blame the local police.
Put the blame for what happened solely where it belongs, the Mccanns.
Thanks to John excellent images in the thread "sadies theory"
We can see Jane Tanners route (green arrow) immediately prior to her seeing bundleman. Also, if we look carefully, we can see a foreshortened lamp post, which closely illuminated bundlemans body and possibly some of his face. Also illuminated ?Madeleine.
See the green dots? Well the lampost is immediately below and between the two RH green dots ... seen from above so extremely foreshortened.. On the corner of the pavement and shining straight onto bundleman and Madeleine, as he crossed the road
(http://i.imgur.com/yclf37E.jpg)
Another image of it, but taken looking from the north in a southerly direction., so it is sort of opposite to the GE map above.
The lampost is almost at the left of the image and immediately to the left of the bushy tree.. You may have to magnify this image to see the lampost.
(http://i.imgur.com/kRywhw6.png?1)
Bundleman, presumably expecting a get-away driver and pick up on Jane Tanner corner, left OC via the car park entrance (centre foreground) and walked to the left (easterly direction). Jane Tanner came up the road from the right. Upon seeing Jane Tanner, Bundleman carried on walking straight across the road in front of him. He was well illuminated all the way.
Jane, as a woman on her own after dark, would have been watching him like a hawk
The lighting would have been pretty good Stephen
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: John on June 23, 2013, 12:24:13 AM
Of course it's not hearsay - it is what the witness KM saw. Corroberrated by a member of the hotel staff.
Jane Tanner is not blind and saw a man carrying a child walking across the road in front of her close enough to be able to describe what she saw.
With so many similarities, I think the Smiths saw the same person.
Big problem with the Smith sighting compared to the Tanner one. The man Martin Smith saw reminded him of Gerry McCann but Gerry didn't have long shoulder length hair similar to the man described by Tanner. Thus the two couldn't have been the same man.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 12:41:29 AM
Of course it's not hearsay - it is what the witness KM saw. Corroberrated by a member of the hotel staff.
Benice, if you're not Mrs McCann, it is hearsay. More, the only fingerprints on the window were Mrs McCann's. Finally, look at the photograph made by the scientific police : this is how Amy saw the shutters.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 01:03:59 AM
Big problem with the Smith sighting compared to the Tanner one. The man Martin Smith saw reminded him of Gerry McCann but Gerry didn't have long shoulder length hair similar to the man described by Tanner. Thus the two couldn't have been the same man.
But John, the Smiths saw a blond medium-hued, not very light hair (like the hair of the little girl on the PDL playground), a very pale skin (odd, Madeleine wasn't properly "pale"), about 1m high (like the little girl on the PDL playground), about 4years old (Madeleine's age), in light coloured pyjamas, likely barefoot. Of that description of the carried child, only the light coloured pyjamas and the bare feet match JT's description. Can one reasonably deduce from pyjamas it was the same child ? And, recklessly doing so, infer that the man with the hair longer on the neck and Mr McCann clumsycarryalike are the same man ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 23, 2013, 01:11:21 AM
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
Oddly, I can't seem to find anything about testing for fingerprints on the OUTSIDE of the window, just the inside. (where Kate McCann's finger prints were found - quite naturally as she stayed there). The blinds seem to have been checked though & inadequate prints found.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 01:12:29 AM
Benice, if you're not Mrs McCann, it is hearsay. More, the only fingerprints on the window were Mrs McCann's. Finally, look at the photograph made by the scientific police : this is how Amy saw the shutters.
That is a nonsense to start with. Everyone messed with those shutters and windows. Even Amy did. See her statement.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 01:13:11 AM
How do you know KM DID open the window and play with the shutters? And why would she do that?
My vision is irrelevant, Jane Tanner saw what she saw - and there was need for her to lie about it.
I presume you meant "there was no need.." or ? Mrs McCann didn't report having played with the shutters and window, she even said she never touched them during that week (planted fingerprints perhaps ?), but Mr McCann, though he broke shutters the first day (according to Mrs McCann), insisted in experimenting whether they could be opened from the outside whereas the TP6 were running around like headless chicken.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 01:19:33 AM
I presume you meant "there was no need.." or ? Mrs McCann didn't report having played with the shutters and window, she even said she never touched them during that week (planted fingerprints perhaps ?), but Mr McCann, though he broke shutters the first day (according to Mrs McCann), insisted in experimenting whether they could be opened from the outside whereas the TP6 were running around like headless chicken.
So if Dr Gerry Mccann (he is a doctor after all ... not a plain Mr ... not a surgeon) was messing around with the shutters etc outside., that is further proof that Kates finger print was NOT a solitary finger print outside.
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
Oddly, I can't seem to find anything about testing for fingerprints on the OUTSIDE of the window, just the inside. (where Kate McCann's finger prints were found - quite naturally as she stayed there). The blinds seem to have been checked though & inadequate prints found.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: John on June 23, 2013, 01:27:35 AM
Are you suggesting the open shutters/window wasn't a red herring after all, but the way the perpetrator got in ?
Pat Brown rubbish again. Entrance and exit was by the front door, which was so recesssed and tucked away out of sight as to be almost invisible from any direction. Very very dark in that recesseed out of the way spot. The obvious entrance and exit.
Virtually 100% certainty that this was the way in and out.
The only reason to keep drumming for the window is that a key had to be used on the front door. Therefore someone from OC, or with some contact to OC, was involved ... and that goes against the Official Party Line! <<< Amarals blurb
Remember, the burglaries in OC including Mrs Fenns above 5A ? Entrance was thru front doors but no damage to the doors, therefore a key was used.
Edited spellings
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 01:47:31 AM
Question is...how did an abductor know which bedroom the children were in?
That's a simple, but very good, question
Originally the cots were in the other bedroom ( overlooking the pool and tapas bar area ), but Kate and Gerry decided they wanted that one for themselves ... so moved the cots into the other bedroom ( that overlooked the car park )
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 02:03:15 AM
The T/O'B did the same. One witness (from the OC staff) was amazed, since sudden sound and light would have been noticed much better. Besides each room had two beds, no double bed.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 23, 2013, 02:13:18 AM
The T/O'B did the same. One witness (from the OC staff) was amazed, since sudden sound and light would have been noticed much better. Besides each room had two beds, no double bed.
That's right Anne
There was no reason for the McCanns to take the cots out of the bedroom they were orginally in ( the one that could be seen from the tapas bar ) because both bedrooms had single beds
The McCanns took the cots out of the bedroom that could be seen from the tapas bar and pushed the single beds together to make a double ... they could have pushed the two single beds in the other room together and not have to have moved the cots at all ( and, crucially, they could have viewed the children's bedroom from the tapas bar )
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 02:34:40 AM
The McCanns took the cots out of the bedroom that could be seen from the tapas bar and pushed the single beds together to make a double ... they could have pushed the two single beds in the other room together and not have to have moved the cots at all ( and, crucially, they could have viewed the children's bedroom from the tapas bar )
Yes, but.. The south bedroom was nicer and, in fact, the twins in the bottom of their cots couldn't appreciate the bedroom. I always thought that Madeleine was allowed to get asleep in her parents' bedroom. Why ? Because she was going to bed half an hour or so before her siblings in the UK, as she was the oldest, a prerogative likely important for her. I find it hard to believe she would accept to be sent to bed at the same time and in the same way than her siblings. This would explain why her bed seemed prepared for her, not slept in.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 08:05:42 AM
Big problem with the Smith sighting compared to the Tanner one. The man Martin Smith saw reminded him of Gerry McCann but Gerry didn't have long shoulder length hair similar to the man described by Tanner. Thus the two couldn't have been the same man.
JT didn't say the man had shoulder length hair. If she thought that she would have said so as 'shoulder length' is a common phrase which we would all use. She was trying to emphasize that the man's hair was thick right down to where it ended at his neck as opposed to being layered into the nape of his neck. Each hair being the same length from the crown of his head to where it met his neck.
It wasn't Gerry who reminded him of the man he saw, it was the way in which the child was being carried that was familiar to him and brought back a memory. Mr Smith must have previously seen many pictures/clips of Gerry, but they hadn't reminded him - it was only when he saw him carrying Sean down the airplane steps in the same way he saw the man carrying a child that he made a connection.
The similarities between the two independent descriptions of the man are far too many IMO for it to be two different men.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 08:20:17 AM
Having read through the replies to my post after I logged off last night, I see no evidence of abduction has been supplied.
Sadie, you can present all the photos you want, but what you should do is show some under the same lighting conditions as when tanner made her alleged sighting. Showing daylight photos has no credence whatsoever.
Likewise, saying tanner was looking like a hawk at the faceless Mr. Bundleman, do you realize you have no proof tanner say anything at all. ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 08:25:39 AM
Question is...how did an abductor know which bedroom the children were in?
If he/they were watching the apartment, they would quickly notice that the lights in the back bedroom went on when the McCanns returned home each night. And even if they didn't know for sure, then once they got in there it was hardly a problem to find out - in a two bedroom apartment.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 08:40:28 AM
Having read through the replies to my post after I logged off last night, I see no evidence of abduction has been supplied.Sadie, you can present all the photos you want, but what you should do is show some under the same lighting conditions as when tanner made her alleged sighting. Showing daylight photos has no credence whatsoever.
Likewise, saying tanner was looking like a hawk at the faceless Mr. Bundleman, do you realize you have no proof tanner say anything at all. ?
To believe that you must think KM lied about finding the shutters and window open. Why would she do that?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 08:44:25 AM
As it stands, and you I'm sure you know this, the only identifiable fingerprints obtained were hers.
No I'm not kidding you Stephen. Why do you think Kate would lie about the shutters and window? What did she have to gain from doing that?
There were other fingerprints found but they were incomplete. That didn't stop them from being fingerprints. IMo You are implying no other fingerprints whatsoever were found which is not true.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 09:14:15 AM
No I'm not kidding you Stephen. Why do you think Kate would lie about the shutters and window? What did she have to gain from doing that?
There were other fingerprints found but they were incomplete. That didn't stop them from being fingerprints. IMo You are implying no other fingerprints whatsoever were found which is not true.
If the abduction is made up as I believe, then she had everything to gain.
I am aware other fingerprints were found but not identifiable, but hers were.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 23, 2013, 09:18:13 AM
Me too. Apparently any fingerprints found that were incomplete and so could not be identified are to be dismissed as evidence. What they should be classed as - according to Stephen, I have no idea. Partial or not they are still fingerprints found at the scene and left there by someone.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 09:50:01 AM
Me too. Apparently any fingerprints found that were incomplete and so could not be identified are to be dismissed as evidence. What they should be classed as - according to Stephen, I have no idea. Partial or not they are still fingerprints found at the scene and left there by someone.
However, it does not mean any other prints were made by an 'abductor'.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 09:58:36 AM
I despair of people like you who believe every word spouted by the Mccanns.
You are aware of course of the statistics for missing children, in two respects, the likelihood of finding a child after this length of time, and also how many 'disappearances' are linked to the family itself.
They have stuck to an abduction thesis for which there exists no evidence.
P.S. In simple language, a person(s) seeing someone holding a child does not mean proof of abduction. Likewise, the tanner and Smith accounts contradict each other,
and for the umpteenth time, after 6+ years and not one sign of Madeleine's whereabouts and worldwide publicity for the case, what next ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 10:01:42 AM
However, it does not mean any other prints were made by an 'abductor'.
Quite right Stephen, and by the same token it doesn't mean they were NOT made by an abductor either. We have no way of knowing. Surely you can see that?
Kate had lived in the apartment for 6 days, so it's hardly sinister that her prints were found on the inside of the window of her children's bedroom.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 23, 2013, 10:02:29 AM
After six years of no arrests, no charges and no trial, what next?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 10:18:03 AM
I despair of people like you who believe every word spouted by the Mccanns.
You are aware of course of the statistics for missing children, in two respects, the likelihood of finding a child after this length of time, and also how many 'disappearances' are linked to the family itself.
They have stuck to an abduction thesis for which there exists no evidence.
P.S. In simple language, a person(s) seeing someone holding a child does not mean proof of abduction. Likewise, the tanner and Smith accounts contradict each other,
and for the umpteenth time, after 6+ years and not one sign of Madeleine's whereabouts and worldwide publicity for the case, what next ?
The statistics show that stranger abduction does happen. And that is all we need to know.
My belief that the McCanns are innocent is not based purely on what they say. In the main it is common sense which tells me that they did not have anything to do with their beloved daughter's abduction.
I too despair of people who claim the parents 'did it' but refuse to say how or why they managed to change from loving parents into raving psychopaths in a matter of minutes, or how their friends suddenly lost all semblance of intelligence, and in a flash turned into brainless thickos who happily agreed to become accessories to the death/disposal of a child - as if a child's death was of no more important to them than a family goldfish which had been found dead. It simply makes no sense.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 10:36:27 AM
The statistics show that stranger abduction does happen. And that is all we need to know.
My belief that the McCanns are innocent is not based purely on what they say. In the main it is common sense which tells me that they did not have anything to do with their beloved daughter's abduction.
I too despair of people who claim the parents 'did it' but refuse to say how or why they managed to change from loving parents into raving psychopaths in a matter of minutes, or how their friends suddenly lost all semblance of intelligence, and in a flash turned into brainless thickos who happily agreed to become accessories to the death/disposal of a child - as if a child's death was of no more important to them than a family goldfish which had been found dead. It simply makes no sense.
You are implying by that statement that people who don't believe the Mccanns think they killed her.
I do not.
I believe she had an accident from which she didn't recover and subsequent event were to cover up what happened, and please don't say cover ups don't happen, they do.
I have given reasons many times here and elsewhere why I think the Mccanns behaviour is not in accord with an abduction, and nothing I have seen so far has convinced me otherwise.
You are welcome to show me I am wrong, with concrete evidence I am wrong.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
No I'm not kidding you Stephen. Why do you think Kate would lie about the shutters and window? What did she have to gain from doing that?
There were other fingerprints found but they were incomplete. That didn't stop them from being fingerprints. IMo You are implying no other fingerprints whatsoever were found which is not true.
There were no other fingerprints on the inside.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 11:09:54 AM
You are implying by that statement that people who don't believe the Mccanns think they killed her.
I do not.
I believe she had an accident from which she didn't recover and subsequent event were to cover up what happened, and please don't say cover ups don't happen, they do.
I have given reasons many times here and elsewhere why I think the Mccanns behaviour is not in accord with an abduction, and nothing I have seen so far has convinced me otherwise.
You are welcome to show me I am wrong, with concrete evidence I am wrong.
So I take it you actually believe that 9 very intelligent, highly educated and - what is most important - NORMAL decent people, all agreed to become major criminals in an instant and that even Fiona Payne was quite happy to encourage her own mother to agree to take part in this heinous crime - completely ignoring the possiblity that they could all end up in prison with their lives and their chldren's lives in ruins?
If what you said was true - which means of course that they are all psychopaths - then I'm quite sure that between the nine of them they could have come up with a much simpler plan than the complicated convuluted one which according to you they devised amongst themselves.
Like for instance:
Remove the body at their leisure in the dead of night. Go back to bed. Get up in the morning, open the front door and leave it ajar. Call the police and report their child missing.
I'm a reasonably intelligent person, with no university education, and it took me about 10 seconds to come up with that plan. Do you really think not one of them would have thought of that?
(Must go visitors are imminent)
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 11:17:11 AM
It wasn't a crime scene whilst Madeleine was still being searched for by her parents and their friends. It was only after she wasn't found by them that it became one.
However, it was definitely a crime scene by the time the GNR arrived. It should have been cleared and cordoned off at that moment. They failed to do that and allowed all and sundry to continue to enter, including dogs who left masses of hairs around the place.
Benice, it's not fair and you know why : 1) The police should have been called earlier (I'm not blaming, I'm just observing) 2) Though the GNR would have been the appropriate police for a lost girl, it wasn't for an abducted one, a fact her parents had no doubt whatsoever about (as they stated repeatedly). The GNR isn't equipped to determine crime scenes. 3) The dogs had to get inside because Madeleine had disappeared from her bed, according to her parents. This is the norm when sniffer dogs are used.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 11:20:07 AM
So I take it you actually believe that 9 very intelligent, highly educated and - what is most important - NORMAL decent people, all agreed to become major criminals in an instant and that even Fiona Payne was quite happy to encourage her own mother to agree to take part in this heinous crime - completely ignoring the possiblity that they could all end up in prison with their lives and their chldren's lives in ruins?
If what you said was true - which means of course that they are all psychopaths - then I'm quite sure that between the nine of them they could have come up with a much simpler plan than the complicated convuluted one which according to you they devised amongst themselves.
Like for instance:
Remove the body at their leisure in the dead of night. Go back to bed. Get up in the morning, open the front door and leave it ajar. Call the police and report their child missing.
I'm a reasonably intelligent person, with no university education, and it took me about 10 seconds to come up with that plan. Do you really think not one of them would have thought of that?
(Must go visitors are imminent)
Are you really saying intelligent people don't commit crimes ?
Pull the other one.
and what's this crap about psychopaths ?
Essentially you cannot answer my questions.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 11:40:30 AM
The statistics show that stranger abduction does happen. And that is all we need to know.
My belief that the McCanns are innocent is not based purely on what they say. In the main it is common sense which tells me that they did not have anything to do with their beloved daughter's abduction.
I too despair of people who claim the parents 'did it' but refuse to say how or why they managed to change from loving parents into raving psychopaths in a matter of minutes, or how their friends suddenly lost all semblance of intelligence, and in a flash turned into brainless thickos who happily agreed to become accessories to the death/disposal of a child - as if a child's death was of no more important to them than a family goldfish which had been found dead. It simply makes no sense.
Beliefs are a thing, common sense another one. You believe, it's your right, you pretend this is common sense, that is pure belief ;) Nobody on this forum claims the parents did it. What is "it" actually ? Sceptics think the parents didn't tell the truth, they don't infer they are "raven psychopaths" ! I'm a sceptic but I'm very sure Madeleine was the most precious gift ever. And there's the rub !
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 23, 2013, 12:15:46 PM
If Gerry found Madeleine dead due to an accident when he did his check, there was nothing stopping him leaving it until they returned to the apartment and saying that the accident occurred when they were there.
Rigor mortis does not set in until three hours after death.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 12:24:56 PM
If Gerry found Madeleine dead due to an accident when he did his check, there was nothing stopping him leaving it until they returned to the apartment and saying that the accident occurred when they were there.
Rigor mortis does not set in until three hours after death.
No, Lace, (going on your hypothesis) there was something stopping him : the temperature of the body. Once thing is discovering a warm body, another a cold one. In the second case, neglect couldn't be discarded. A poster, Meadow, remarked this long ago and this is very right.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 23, 2013, 12:40:07 PM
No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night. And please lets not go into details. Just use your common sense.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 23, 2013, 02:26:17 PM
No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night. And please lets not go into details. Just use your common sense.
That is true Eleanor.
They could say they found her in the morning.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 02:30:24 PM
No one would know if the body was in rigor mortis if Madeleine had been disposed of in the middle of the night. And please lets not go into details. Just use your common sense.
Your 'common sense' means agree with everything the Mccanns say.
No chance on that.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 23, 2013, 02:33:37 PM
If as some are saying the McCann's staged the abduction.
If Kate herself opened the window, why the heck did she leave her fingerprint? For goodness sake everyone watches crime programmes don't they? You don't leave your fingerprints if you have committed a crime!!
If the McCann's planned an abduction, then surely they would have got rid of the clothes worn during the crime? Kate surely wouldn't wear the trousers she wore during the crime a few days later!!
Also if the friends were also in on this cover up, then get the stories matching. Gerry would have said' yes he saw Jane passing' wouldn't he?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 02:39:28 PM
If as some are saying the McCann's staged the abduction.
If Kate herself opened the window, why the heck did she leave her fingerprint? For goodness sake everyone watches crime programmes don't they? You don't leave your fingerprints if you have committed a crime!!
If the McCann's planned an abduction, then surely they would have got rid of the clothes worn during the crime? Kate surely wouldn't wear the trousers she wore during the crime a few days later!!
Also if the friends were also in on this cover up, then get the stories matching. Gerry would have said' yes he saw Jane passing' wouldn't he?
Bottom line.
No proof of an abduction.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 02:44:21 PM
Are you really saying intelligent people don't commit crimes ?
Pull the other one.
and what's this crap about psychopaths ?
Essentially you cannot answer my questions.
What questions? The Portuguese AG stated that there was no evidence of any crime commited by the McCanns or their friends. Part of that conclusion was because of the perfectly normal behaviour exhibited by the McCanns before Madeleine's disappearance was discovered. Scotland Yard believe Madeleine was a victim of stranger abduction and have not even hinted at anything else. They have the professionally translated files, the experience and the expertise - so why do you think you know better?
I notice that after several requests, you still avoid giving YOUR theory on how or why this crime was committed by this group of people. Why is that?
Amongst other traits, Psychopaths have no empathy and no conscience. For the McCanns and their friends to have been able to sit down and enjoy a meal, and chat away and joke amongst themselves, when they knew Madeleine had died that night - and knowing the massive furore that was about to break loose involving them with the Police at 10.00p.m. - then they would all have to be completely devoid of empathy or conscience, - as normal people would simply not be able to do that.
The idea of NINE of them all being psychopaths (or sociopaths which is the modern word for it) is plainly ludicrous. Where's your common sense Stephen?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Dog The Bounty Hunter on June 23, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
I cannot understand your logic here as there is lots of evidence which supports the abduction claim and little of anything which points to the parents being involved in any sinister deed. Is it a case of the needle being stuck with you mate??
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2013, 02:51:41 PM
Didn't he make a rehearsal the night before ? Without passing through the window or closing everything behind him, Shutterman..
We will never know that for sure Anne but it is a distinct possibility all the same.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Jazzy on June 23, 2013, 02:52:59 PM
I think it is Bounty Hunter, I'm sat reading stuff that has been under discussion for the past 6 years and it's ultimately pointless.
There is a new investigation, hints at new evidence, new persons of interest. That might be worth discussing when details are revealed. This far, there really is nothing new.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Originally the cots were in the other bedroom ( overlooking the pool and tapas bar area ), but Kate and Gerry decided they wanted that one for themselves ... so moved the cots into the other bedroom ( that overlooked the car park )
Could it be that this window being hidden from view and out of the way had been used before to effect an entry?? My own view is that the abductor didn't realise that the children were in that particular bedroom. It is also very possible that the abductor didn't even have to enter the room as suggested by Heri in his video.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2013, 03:20:06 PM
JT didn't say the man had shoulder length hair. If she thought that she would have said so as 'shoulder length' is a common phrase which we would all use. She was trying to emphasize that the man's hair was thick right down to where it ended at his neck as opposed to being layered into the nape of his neck.
Strange that Benice as that isn't strictly true is it?
...by 11:30, 4 May, Jane gives another description, more detailed: a dark skinned man, 35-40yo, thin, 1,7m, dark, thick shoulder length hair, linen pants of beige or gold color, a "Duffy" type though not as thick, with classic black shoes: walking quickly and carrying a child laying across his two arms in front of his chest; by his dress, he didn't look like a tourist and didn't seem like a tourist because he was so bundled up ("encasacado"?). the child appeared to be sleeping, though she only saw the legs, the feet were bare and the pyjamas looked like cotton, a light color, maybe white or pink, with a design, perhaps, though she wasn't sure, perhaps with flowers.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 03:33:23 PM
What questions? The Portuguese AG stated that there was no evidence of any crime commited by the McCanns or their friends. Part of that conclusion was because of the perfectly normal behaviour exhibited by the McCanns before Madeleine's disappearance was discovered. Scotland Yard believe Madeleine was a victim of stranger abduction and have not even hinted at anything else. They have the professionally translated files, the experience and the expertise - so why do you think you know better?
I notice that after several requests, you still avoid giving YOUR theory on how or why this crime was committed by this group of people. Why is that?
Amongst other traits, Psychopaths have no empathy and no conscience. For the McCanns and their friends to have been able to sit down and enjoy a meal, and chat away and joke amongst themselves, when they knew Madeleine had died that night - and knowing the massive furore that was about to break loose involving them with the Police at 10.00p.m. - then they would all have to be completely devoid of empathy or conscience, - as normal people would simply not be able to do that.
The idea of NINE of them all being psychopaths (or sociopaths which is the modern word for it) is plainly ludicrous. Where's your common sense Stephen?
No trouble with common sense.
It's not me calling them psychopathic.
All I'm asking for is proof of abduction and you know damn well there is none.
As to the Mccanns behaving 'normally' after Madeleine's disappearance, pull the other one.
If you taken note in the past, either here on on amazon, I have already given my theory several times.
So do take note.
After all your hyperbole, what's left ?
Yup, no proof of abduction.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 03:37:25 PM
Strange that Benice as that isn't strictly true is it?
...by 11:30, 4 May, Jane gives another description, more detailed: a dark skinned man, 35-40yo, thin, 1,7m, dark, thick shoulder length hair, linen pants of beige or gold color, a "Duffy" type though not as thick, with classic black shoes: walking quickly and carrying a child laying across his two arms in front of his chest; by his dress, he didn't look like a tourist and didn't seem like a tourist because he was so bundled up ("encasacado"?). the child appeared to be sleeping, though she only saw the legs, the feet were bare and the pyjamas looked like cotton, a light color, maybe white or pink, with a design, perhaps, though she wasn't sure, perhaps with flowers.
That is not a verbatim quote from JT. It is a multi-translated summary by someone else.
In Kates book the description (as given by JT) of the man's hair is:-
''Thick, dark, slightly longer at back of neck' .
That does not denote 'shoulder length' hair to me.
I presume that Kate would want the description of the abductor to be precise and accurate in a book that was going to be read by thousands - so that the readers would have the correct description in their minds.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 03:44:24 PM
That is not a verbatim quote from JT. It is a multi-translated summary by someone else.
In Kates book the description (as given by JT) of the man's hair is:-
''Thick, dark, slightly longer at back of neck' .
That does not denote 'shoulder length' hair to me.
I presume that Kate would want the description of the abductor to be precise and accurate in a book that was going to be read by thousands - so that the readers would have the correct description in their minds.
Again the made up abductor.
So which one is it this time ?
Mr. Spotty ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 03:51:18 PM
Jane Tanner working with a police sketch artist, produced this: Not in a month of Sundays can this be more fairly called short hair than long hair, so where does that leave the alledged similarity to the Smithman? In the bin imo.It doesnt even match the slightly longer at the back of the neck! as most of it seems chin length, and lets not forget the actor used in their documentary Madeleine Was Here, a nice healthy bob there too! And that documentary was made alledgedly to get people to come forward,reconstructions are normally done using people as close as possible to witness statements Rolly eyes
All I'm asking for is proof of abduction and you know damn well there is none.
As to the Mccanns behaving 'normally' after Madeleine's disappearance, pull the other one.
If you taken note in the past, either here on on amazon, I have already given my theory several times.
So do take note.
After all your hyperbole, what's left ?
Yup, no proof of abduction.
So please elaborate for us Stephen. How does one behave normally when your 3 yr old child is taken from her bed in a holiday apartment in a foreign country?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 23, 2013, 04:01:57 PM
Are you suggesting the witness who saw a man with spotty skin isn't telling the truth Stephen?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 23, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
So, no other persons of interest then. And The CPS went to Portugal to get The McCanns arrested. Or perhaps they went to Portugal to ask permission to arrest The McCanns. Any minute now Britain will be issuing a European Arrest Warrant to have The McCanns extradited to Portugal because Portugal is so much better at obtaining confessions.
Sounds good to me. Watch this space.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 04:18:54 PM
That is not a verbatim quote from JT. It is a multi-translated summary by someone else.
What does multi- translated mean? The quote afaiaw is from GAs book and was translated by one person, Annaesse, perhaps one of your PT reading friends can compare the original portuguese with the translation. As I posted earlier JTs sketch shows more long than short hair, as does the mccanns own documentary
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on June 23, 2013, 04:37:57 PM
That is not a verbatim quote from JT. It is a multi-translated summary by someone else.
In Kates book the description (as given by JT) of the man's hair is:-
''Thick, dark, slightly longer at back of neck' .
That does not denote 'shoulder length' hair to me.
I presume that Kate would want the description of the abductor to be precise and accurate in a book that was going to be read by thousands - so that the readers would have the correct description in their minds.
Jane described the man in English and the interpreter, Filipa Silva, translated as "Cabelo muito escuro, espesso, curto mas longo até ao pescoço (só consegue identificar por trás)" ... Bolds are mine.
Heri.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 04:51:16 PM
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
IIRC side of patio door was found to belong to one of the. Police officers, as for the exterior of the blinds, most probably Gerry and Diana Websters as they admitted they fiddled with them
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 05:00:20 PM
What does multi- translated mean? The quote afaiaw is from GAs book and was translated by one person, Annaesse, perhaps one of your PT reading friends can compare the original portuguese with the translation. As I posted earlier JTs sketch shows more long than short hair, as does the mccanns own documentary
From Goncalo Amarals book? The one where he says this:-
QUOTE Tuesday May 1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately END QUOTE
Notice how he lies and changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem that it was the very next morning after what Mrs Fenn heard - when Madeleine asked the question - when actually it was 2 days later.
He also deliberately leaves out Sean's name when he relates what Madeleine said - to make it fit in with Mrs. Fenn hearing only ONE child crying and not two as Madeleine claimed.
Sorry Red, but if he can tell such porkies as that - then no quotes from his book can be taken as reliable - no matter who translated it IMO.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on June 23, 2013, 05:07:33 PM
From Goncalo Amarals book? The one where he says this:-
QUOTE Tuesday May 1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately END QUOTE
Notice how he lies and changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem that it was the very next morning after what Mrs Fenn heard - when Madeleine asked the question - when actually it was 2 days later.
He also deliberately leaves out Sean's name when he relates what Madeleine said - to make it fit in with Mrs. Fenn hearing only ONE child crying and not two as Madeleine claimed.
Sorry Red, but if he can tell such porkies as that - then no quotes from his book can be taken as reliable - no matter who translated it IMO.
It is very interesting reading Amaral's book! (I read it twice).
But only if you read it with the PJ Files nearby. Read half page, go to the files to see, take note, and so on ... When you finish you will have a lot of interesting things in your notes.
Heri.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 05:12:34 PM
Benice GA was obviously trying to explore a link between two crying stories, its a policemans job and prerogative to do so with any information available, its their JOB to be suspicious
KMs testimony is not independent or corroborated, so we have no idea that what she said Madeleine said was actually true or evenhalf a truth
In any case you have avoided addressing the issues surrounding JTs description of the abductors hair and they are not confined to GAs writings
ETA the titling of wed 2 may for the crying story is wrong I agree but doesnt prove he is trying to lie, he could be mistaken, as Heri says many people can be, he is not a computer or superman, if youwant to accord x y z epithet for this your prerogative
Oh and Benice, many examples havebeen shown that what is printed in KMs book is half truths so you believe everything in it 100% is beyond me really for a self professed reasonable and fairly intelligent person, unles you blindly believe everything, and wont critique anything at all, not even someone who gives GA benefit of the doubt believes blindly in everything he has written and wont criticise it
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 23, 2013, 05:39:42 PM
It is quite obvious to any sane person that The Mccanns are innocent and that there is an abductor walking around out there, who Scotland Yard are trying to identify. Fortunately, none of The Troll rubbish is making a scrap of difference. But I want the abductor or abductors identified because they are dangerous people who could well have moved somewhere else, to strike again. I just don't understand why certain people are trying so hard to pretend that no such person or people exist when we know only too well that they do.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 05:42:00 PM
So please elaborate for us Stephen. How does one behave normally when your 3 yr old child is taken from her bed in a holiday apartment in a foreign country?
You do not know she was taken by an abductor.
That is supposition.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 05:49:06 PM
It is quite obvious to any sane person that The Mccanns are innocent and that there is an abductor walking around out there, who Scotland Yard are trying to identify. Fortunately, none of The Troll rubbish is making a scrap of difference. But I want the abductor or abductors identified because they are dangerous people who could well have moved somewhere else, to strike again. I just don't understand why certain people are trying so hard to pretend that no such person or people exist when we know only too well that they do.
Feel better now? Has this abductor struck again? has he stolen another 3 yr old child from their bed or anywhere else for a loving family? Or trafficking? I watch all news channels, seen zilch......if there was any concrete evidence people wouldnt ask questions unfortunately the statistics show family are involved in most cases andnot strangers, so you cannot castigate people for wondering on the issues in a massive COLD CASE inthe media every other day, and you cant call police officers insane for doing the same
As for your last sentence, NO you dont know, I dont know, the police dont KNOW, so your sentence is null and void, and if you KNOW, youhave to provide the proof, knowing is a mile away from suspecting
Oh and btw no one has ever declared the mccanns innocent, they may be, but this is a fact, and the lifting of arguido status is only commensurate with shelving a case, lifting of status does not mean innocent ie its PARKED, and if youhave contrary info on this issue post it for me and others to read
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 06:38:37 PM
Quote from: stephen25000 on Today at 02:39:28 PM Bottom line.
No proof of an abduction.[/quote]
Quote from: Bounty Hunter
hey dude
I cannot understand your logic here as there is lots of evidence which supports the abduction claim and little of anything which points to the parents being involved in any sinister deed.
Is it a case of the needle being stuck with you mate??
8@??)( 8@??)( @)(++(*
Is it a case of the needle being stuck with you mate??
I lurve it ! 8((()*/ @)(++(*
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 06:45:28 PM
From Goncalo Amarals book? The one where he says this:-
QUOTE Tuesday May 1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately END QUOTE
Notice how he lies and changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem that it was the very next morning after what Mrs Fenn heard - when Madeleine asked the question - when actually it was 2 days later.
He also deliberately leaves out Sean's name when he relates what Madeleine said - to make it fit in with Mrs. Fenn hearing only ONE child crying and not two as Madeleine claimed.[/b]
Sorry Red, but if he can tell such porkies as that - then no quotes from his book can be taken as reliable - no matter who translated it IMO.
Well spotted Benice.
As the mother of two children who for a period shared a bedroom, I can tell you that if one child woke and started crying, it wasn't long before both were at it.
Dread to think what it would have been like had three of them been crying together ... cos that is what would have happened
tbh, it is more likely that the child crying was next door,. Remember Mrs Fenns place spanned the two flats
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 06:52:41 PM
It is very interesting reading Amaral's book! (I read it twice).
But only if you read it with the PJ Files nearby. Read half page, go to the files to see, take note, and so on ... When you finish you will have a lot of interesting things in your notes.
Heri.
What an interesting thing to do. I wish I had the time.
I have found an anomoly too, from Amarals office. A serious one. SY know
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 06:56:06 PM
It is quite obvious to any sane person that The Mccanns are innocent and that there is an abductor walking around out there, who Scotland Yard are trying to identify. Fortunately, none of The Troll rubbish is making a scrap of difference. But I want the abductor or abductors identified because they are dangerous people who could well have moved somewhere else, to strike again. I just don't understand why certain people are trying so hard to pretend that no such person or people exist when we know only too well that they do.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
I just don't understand why certain people are trying so hard to pretend that no such person or people exist when we know only too well that they do.
Well said Eleanor; my feelings exactly
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 06:59:31 PM
It is quite obvious to any sane person that The Mccanns are innocent and that there is an abductor walking around out there, who Scotland Yard are trying to identify. Fortunately, none of The Troll rubbish is making a scrap of difference. But I want the abductor or abductors identified because they are dangerous people who could well have moved somewhere else, to strike again. I just don't understand why certain people are trying so hard to pretend that no such person or people exist when we know only too well that they do.
Feel better now? Has this abductor struck again? has he stolen another 3 yr old child from their bed or anywhere else for a loving family? Or trafficking? I watch all news channels, seen zilch......if there was any concrete evidence people wouldnt ask questions unfortunately the statistics show family are involved in most cases andnot strangers, so you cannot castigate people for wondering on the issues in a massive COLD CASE inthe media every other day, and you cant call police officers insane for doing the same
As for your last sentence, NO you dont know, I dont know, the police dont KNOW, so your sentence is null and void, and if you KNOW, youhave to provide the proof, knowing is a mile away from suspecting
Oh and btw no one has ever declared the mccanns innocent, they may be, but this is a fact, and the lifting of arguido status is only commensurate with shelving a case, lifting of status does not mean innocent ie its PARKED, and if youhave contrary info on this issue post it for me and others to read
bump for reply on this but all other issues, thanks in advance
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 07:20:13 PM
Benice GA was obviously trying to explore a link between two crying stories, its a policemans job and prerogative to do so with any information available, its their JOB to be suspicious
KMs testimony is not independent or corroborated, so we have no idea that what she said Madeleine said was actually true or evenhalf a truth
In any case you have avoided addressing the issues surrounding JTs description of the abductors hair and they are not confined to GAs writings
ETA the titling of wed 2 may for the crying story is wrong I agree but doesnt prove he is trying to lie, he could be mistaken, as Heri says many people can be, he is not a computer or superman, if youwant to accord x y z epithet for this your prerogative
Oh and Benice, many examples havebeen shown that what is printed in KMs book is half truths so you believe everything in it 100% is beyond me really for a self professed reasonable and fairly intelligent person, unles you blindly believe everything, and wont critique anything at all, not even someone who gives GA benefit of the doubt believes blindly in everything he has written and wont criticise it
Amarals book is supposed to be based on what is in the files, not on what he wishes was in the files. His account of the Mrs Fenn incident is totally dishonest - and has been done to convince the reader of what HE wants them to believe regardless of the truth. It's not the only example either.
With regard to the sightings, unlike yourself Red, I do not expect to see totally identical descriptions from different people. That is not how memory works. If the Smiths had said they saw a man with short fair hair then that would be different, but IMO 'short brown hair' and 'thick dark hair slightly longer at the neck' is near enough for me. Were the Smiths asked if the man's hair was thick? It would seem not. The rest of the descriptions are also similar enough, i.e. age, height, build, clothing, plus the two descriptions of the child - for me to believe it is far more likely that they are talking about the same man than two different men.
As for Kates book then I am absolutely positive that it was scrutinised to the Nth degree before going to publication to make sure that there was nothing in it which could be proved to be an untrue statement by Kate, or that it contained anything which could be construed as libellous. So far no-one is sueing Kate McCann - not even Amaral - even though she states in her book that his claim that JT positively identified Murat as the abductor is 'completely untrue'.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 07:29:05 PM
Amarals book is supposed to be based on what is in the files, not on what he wishes was in the files. His account of the Mrs Fenn incident is totally dishonest - and has been done to convince the reader of what HE wants them to believe regardless of the truth. It's not the only example either.
With regard to the sightings, unlike yourself Red, I do not expect to see totally identical descriptions from different people. That is not how memory works. If the Smiths had said they saw a man with short fair hair then that would be different, but IMO 'short brown hair' and 'thick dark hair slightly longer at the neck' is near enough for me. Were the Smiths asked if the man's hair was thick? It would seem not. The rest of the descriptions are also similar enough, i.e. age, height, build, clothing, plus the two descriptions of the child - for me to believe it is far more likely that they are talking about the same man than two different men.
As for Kates book then I am absolutely positive that it was scrutinised to the Nth degree before going to publication to make sure that there was nothing in it which could be proved to be an untrue statement by Kate, or that it contained anything which could be construed as libellous. So far no-one is sueing Kate McCann - not even Amaral - even though she states in her book that his claim that JT positively identified Murat as the abductor is 'completely untrue'.
Its ok I understand you believe kate mccann 100%
your prerogative but doesnt mean anything fact wise in any way shape or form and no scrutinising of what she wrote by publishers or laywers who know diddly squat can ever deter from the fact that she did write untruths
Oh and btw jt DID finger murat! She says as much in her rogatory
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 23, 2013, 07:36:43 PM
As the mother of two children who for a period shared a bedroom, I can tell you that if one child woke and started crying, it wasn't long before both were at it.
Dread to think what it would have been like had three of them been crying together ... cos that is what would have happened
tbh, it is more likely that the child crying was next door,. Remember Mrs Fenns place spanned the two flats
That is a fair point
If one child was crying, increasingly distressed and calling out, it is almost inevitable that the other two children in the same room would be wakened and start crying too
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 07:38:28 PM
Notice how he lies and changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem that it was the very next morning after what Mrs Fenn heard - when Madeleine asked the question - when actually it was 2 days later.
He also deliberately leaves out Sean's name when he relates what Madeleine said - to make it fit in with Mrs. Fenn hearing only ONE child crying and not two as Madeleine claimed.
...if he can tell such porkies as that - then no quotes from his book can be taken as reliable...
Don't you see, Benice, that when the McCanns say Madeleine said, it is hearsay ? Inspector Amaral isn't lying, he just guesses that if Mrs Fenn heard a child crying on the 1st and if Rachael M (on the other side of the MC children bedroom wall) heard no child crying on the 2nd, then very likely Madeleine cried on the first.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Jazzy on June 23, 2013, 07:43:05 PM
your prerogative but doesnt mean anything fact wise in any way shape or form and no scrutinising of what she wrote by publishers or laywers who know diddly squat can ever deter from the fact that she did write untruths
Oh and btw jt DID finger murat! She says as much in her rogatory
Fact is, neither of the Mccanns are under arrest, evidence, as opposed to online [ censored word ]s accusations is still absent after 6 years. Libelling them really doesn't hack it, armchair detecting will never solve it. Legally the Mccanns are innocent, factaually so.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
If one child was crying, increasingly distressed and calling out, it is almost inevitable that the other two children in the same room would be wakened and start crying too
If they were in the same room. No 3/4 years old would remain in bed crying for 45 minutes, but would get out of bed and look for adults, unless paralysed or broken leg or whatever.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2013, 07:46:38 PM
If they were in the same room. No 3/4 years old would remain in bed crying for 45 minutes, but would get out of bed and look for adults, unless paralysed or broken leg or whatever.
I hadn't thought of that ... I suppose it is possible that Madeleine got out of bed and was crying elsewhere in the apartment ( and so may not have woken the twins )
The crying went on for an hour and a quarter, by the way, not 45 minutes
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 07:52:42 PM
Fact is, neither of the Mccanns are under arrest, evidence, as opposed to online p......s accusations is still absent after 6 years. Libelling them really doesn't hack it, armchair detecting will never solve it. Legally the Mccanns are innocent, factaually so.
No legally they are not innocent or guilty, try to understand if you can jazz it requires a court to determine this, they are former suspects released without charge
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
As for Kates book then I am absolutely positive that it was scrutinised to the Nth degree before going to publication to make sure that there was nothing in it which could be proved to be an untrue statement by Kate
How was that achieved, Benice ? Who detains the truth and is able to evaluate the veracity of Mrs McCann's statements ? Are you absolutely positive because you work for this editor, Benice ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 07:54:05 PM
your prerogative but doesnt mean anything fact wise in any way shape or form and no scrutinising of what she wrote by publishers or laywers who know diddly squat can ever deter from the fact that she did write untruths
Oh and btw jt DID finger murat! She says as much in her rogatory
No that's not strictly true Red. I do not believe the McCanns or their friends ever deliberately lied, but I do think that some of their recollections may not have been totally accurate - because few people have perfect recall - especially about things which seemed unimportant at the time, and which they had no idea they were going to be asked to recall at a later date.
If JT had formally identified Robert Murat, the first thing that would have happened was that she would have been immediately taken to the police station - at the speed of light - to make a signed witness statement to that effect. Because that (i.e. a positive identification of Murat as the abductor) would have been the most important evidence that Amaral had against him. That did not happen, she was told she didn't need to sign anything and sent home. There is no witness statement, let alone a formal one, and if there was it would feature prominently in the AG's Final Statement where he gives the reasons why Murat was made an arguido - and it doesn't.
JT Tanner said that she could not see Murat clearly enough to even recognise him as the the man she'd bumped into half an hour previously - let alone the man she saw abducting Madeleine. The only reason why she was told she didn't have to go in to sign anything was because she had NOT positively identified Murat as the abductor - and a statement confirming that fact was of no use to Amaral.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 08:01:04 PM
I hadn't thought of that ... I suppose it is possible that Madeleine got out of bed and was crying elsewhere in the apartment ( and so may not have woken the twins )
The crying went on for an hour and a quarter, by the way, not 45 minutes
Yes, 75 minutes, it seems incredibly long, moreover when you can't help it, poor Mrs Fenn. A reconstruction with a crying child on a tape would have been useful to determine up to what point the TP4 who were supposed to check on their kids could hear it or not. We know that as soon as a sibling was crying or making noises, Madeleine took advantage of it to go to her parents' bedroom.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 23, 2013, 08:08:05 PM
The only reason why she was told she didn't have to go in to sign anything was because she had NOT positively identified Murat as the abductor - and a statement confirming that fact was of no use to Amaral.
I don't think so. This episode was totally illegal (a parade is imperative). Inspector Amaral likely was expecting a hint about the RM lead. Mr Smith was his last hope, but nope.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 23, 2013, 08:13:00 PM
No that's not strictly true Red. I do not believe the McCanns or their friends ever deliberately lied, but I do think that some of their recollections may not have been totally accurate - because few people have perfect recall - especially about things which seemed unimportant at the time, and which they had no idea they were going to be asked to recall at a later date.
If JT had formally identified Robert Murat, the first thing that would have happened was that she would have been immediately taken to the police station - at the speed of light - to make a signed witness statement to that effect. Because that (i.e. a positive identification of Murat as the abductor) would have been the most important evidence that Amaral had against him. That did not happen, she was told she didn't need to sign anything and sent home. There is no witness statement, let alone a formal one, and if there was it would feature prominently in the AG's Final Statement where he gives the reasons why Murat was made an arguido - and it doesn't.
JT Tanner said that she could not see Murat clearly enough to even recognise him as the the man she'd bumped into half an hour previously - let alone the man she saw abducting Madeleine. The only reason why she was told she didn't have to go in to sign anything was because she had NOT positively identified Murat as the abductor - and a statement confirming that fact was of no use to Amaral.
i was not talking about recollections vis a vis kates book but assertions that are clearly lies
As for tanner, unless you want to believe amaral was lying when he said she identified murat by his walk from the surveillance van or unless you want to ignore JT saying in her rogatory statement she didnt think it was, ie with hindsight, but she THOUGHT it was is up to you, btw iirc this surveillance exercise was BEFORE he was made arguido, and sorry but why in her rogatory didnt she say what she said to the police when she was in the van? Bit like her NOT sayong how long her abductor mans hair was
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2013, 08:52:30 PM
What does multi- translated mean? The quote afaiaw is from GAs book and was translated by one person, Annaesse, perhaps one of your PT reading friends can compare the original portuguese with the translation. As I posted earlier JTs sketch shows more long than short hair, as does the mccanns own documentary
Red, thanks for posting that sketch which was created by a sketch artist in consultation with Jane Tanner. It shows without a shred of doubt that the sighting by Tanner and that by the Smiths was of a different man. There is no way the guy in that sketch could be confused for Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 23, 2013, 09:05:04 PM
i was not talking about recollections vis a vis kates book but assertions that are clearly lies
As for tanner, unless you want to believe amaral was lying when he said she identified murat by his walk from the surveillance van or unless you want to ignore JT saying in her rogatory statement she didnt think it was, ie with hindsight, but she THOUGHT it was is up to you, btw iirc this surveillance exercise was BEFORE he was made arguido, and sorry but why in her rogatory didnt she say what she said to the police when she was in the van? Bit like her NOT sayong how long her abductor mans hair was
I think Murat was made an arguido one or two days after the failed 'identify parade'
If you believe that JT would NOT have been required to make a statement if she had positively identified Murat as the abductor then that's your prerogative Red. But it makes no sense to me that Amaral would NOT have want a signed witness statement to wave at Murat during his interrogation.
I repeat, that if such an important witness statement ever existed, it would have been the most predominantly documented evidence mentioned by the AG in his summary of the evidence the PJ had collated against Robert Murat - but neither a statement nor Jane Tanner are mentioned - and that can only be because no witness statement exists - and that can only be because no positive identification was made.
Here are JT's last words about Murat in her Rog Statement:-
JT - Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the telly he seems quite bit, so I can’t, again, I don’t think the build, the build was right, I don’t”. 4078 “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”. Reply “No”. 4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?” Reply “No, I don’t, no”.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2013, 09:07:48 PM
Red, thanks for posting that sketch which was created by a sketch artist in consultation with Jane Tanner. It shows without a shred of doubt that the sighting by Tanner and that by the Smiths was of a different man. There is no way the guy in that sketch could be confused for Gerry McCann.
It's a shame that the PJ didn't organise a sketch of Smith Man.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2013, 09:46:11 PM
Red, thanks for posting that sketch which was created by a sketch artist in consultation with Jane Tanner. It shows without a shred of doubt that the sighting by Tanner and that by the Smiths was of a different man. There is no way the guy in that sketch could be confused for Gerry McCann.
We all know that it wasn't Gerry Mccann in that sketch. There is nothing to piont to the Smiths man as being Gerry either except for the way Gerry carried S*** down the aeroplane steps being similar to the way this man carried ?Madeleine.
And we have gone over this thoroughly in earlier threads: The way that gerry carried S*** down the steps is the way that any caring and responible parent would carry their child down steps. So the smiths comments mean nothing; it is a common way of carrying.
Additionally, Gerry is well provided with genuine alibis from staff, and others, that he could not have been where the Smiths saw this man at the time of their sighting.
The man with the little girl was NOT Gerry Mccann. Even Amaral had to give up on that thesis..
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 23, 2013, 10:09:28 PM
We all know that it wasn't Gerry Mccann in that sketch. There is nothing to piont to the Smiths man as being Gerry either except for the way Gerry carried S*** down the aeroplane steps being similar to the way this man carried ?Madeleine.
And we have gone over this thoroughly in earlier threads: The way that gerry carried S*** down the steps is the way that any caring and responible parent would carry their child down steps. So the smiths comments mean nothing; it is a common way of carrying.
Additionally, Gerry is well provided with genuine alibis from staff, and others, that he could not have been where the Smiths saw this man at the time of their sighting.
The man with the little girl was NOT Gerry Mccann. Even Amaral had to give up on that thesis..
The only alibi Gerry has for the time of the Smith sighting is one given to him by his friends. None of the staff mentioned him being in the bar at the time of the sighting and there were no other guests dining.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2013, 10:27:07 PM
The only alibi Gerry has for the time of the Smith sighting is one given to him by his friends. None of the staff mentioned him being in the bar at the time of the sighting and there were no other guests dining.
Which "bar"? Did you mean the restaurant?
What makes you think that there were no other guests dining there?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 23, 2013, 10:34:36 PM
Fact is, neither of the Mccanns are under arrest, evidence, as opposed to online p......s accusations is still absent after 6 years. Libelling them really doesn't hack it, armchair detecting will never solve it. Legally the Mccanns are innocent, factaually so.
It is not necessary to libel anyone in order to scrutinise events. The McCanns by their own admission failed Madeleine. The extent to which that failure was down to naivety rather than any wrong doing has so far never been established.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2013, 11:31:47 PM
The only alibi Gerry has for the time of the Smith sighting is one given to him by his friends. None of the staff mentioned him being in the bar at the time of the sighting and there were no other guests dining.
Wholly wrong...the evidence by several members of staff put Gerry at the table eating his dinner. Attempting to place him down town carrying Madeleine at 10pm is just preposterous.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 02:03:12 AM
Wholly wrong...the evidence by several members of staff put Gerry at the table eating his dinner. Attempting to place him down town carrying Madeleine at 10pm is just preposterous.
It hasn't been established at what time the alert was launched. Then, whereas Mr and Mrs McCann went to their flat, the others, as Mrs Payne tells, split searching in the building floors, in the path, in the patios, in the short cut, towards the supermarket, not on the north side of the private car park. Isn't that rational ? Wasn't there time to meet the Smiths? According to Gilet, it would have taken less than 3 minutes !
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 02:14:47 AM
Red, thanks for posting that sketch which was created by a sketch artist in consultation with Jane Tanner. It shows without a shred of doubt that the sighting by Tanner and that by the Smiths was of a different man. There is no way the guy in that sketch could be confused for Gerry McCann.
Well Mrs McCann thought that Nofaceman and Copperman could one... What do you think ? The hair perhaps ? (sorry I don't know how to reduce this freak image) Cooperman is even less Mr McCann like.
It hasn't been established at what time the alert was launched. Then, whereas Mr and Mrs McCann went to their flat, the others, as Mrs Payne tells, split searching in the building floors, in the path, in the patios, in the short cut, towards the supermarket, not on the north side of the private car park. Isn't that rational ? Wasn't there time to meet the Smiths? According to Gilet, it would have taken less than 3 minutes !
It most certainly has been established when the alert occurred to the nearest few minutes. There is the evidence of many people who were in or around the club just before it all kicked off. The resort was quiet at 10pm and a scene of great activity at 10.05pm, does that give you as clue?
And as the Smiths sighting was at 10pm, they saw the mystery man even before it was discovered that Madeleine had gone.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 24, 2013, 03:05:33 AM
The man described by Gail Cooper as seen by her hanging around the Ocean Club Garden resort prior to the abduction could very well have been the same man seen by Jane Tanner the night Madeleine was taken.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 24, 2013, 07:37:17 AM
It most certainly has been established when the alert occurred to the nearest few minutes. There is the evidence of many people who were in or around the club just before it all kicked off. The resort was quiet at 10pm and a scene of great activity at 10.05pm, does that give you as clue?
And as the Smiths sighting was at 10pm, they saw the mystery man even before it was discovered that Madeleine had gone.
Exactly. Also if that was Gerry the Smiths saw, then he hadn't even got to his destination yet - wherever that was. He still had to get there, then bury/hide the body, and then get back to the apartment and change his clothes- all in about 5 minutes! A physical impossibility - obviously.
Not much of a plan is it when the alarm is raised before the 'culprit' has even arrived back to establish his alilbi. No-one in their right mind would have that as part of a 'plan'.
The whole idea that it was Gerry the Smiths saw is ludicrous straw-clutching. imo.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on June 24, 2013, 08:44:11 AM
The only alibi Gerry has for the time of the Smith sighting is one given to him by his friends. None of the staff mentioned him being in the bar at the time of the sighting and there were no other guests dining.
So tell me Faithfully, why would Dianne Webster lie?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2013, 08:53:26 AM
Can you cite the evidence for that that would stand up in court ?7
Or do you prefer to stick your head in the sand with the rest of the mccannites ?
If I was as convinced as you are Stephen i.e. that the McCanns and their friends conducted a massive cover up - then I would be extremely keen to spread my theory (the correct one) to as many people as possible - to prove to them what really happened and to show them where they are going wrong. And yet you do the opposite. I'm intrigued to know why you are so reluctant to share what you think is the true version of what McCanns and their friends did on 3rd May, with this forum. If it was me I would be posting it in as many places as possible so that people could see the truth.
Just repeating... 'There is no evidence' ...over and over again - is not a theory - and is not going to convince anyone of anything.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 24, 2013, 09:47:35 AM
If I was as convinced as you are Stephen i.e. that the McCanns and their friends conducted a massive cover up - then I would be extremely keen to spread my theory (the correct one) to as many people as possible - to prove to them what really happened and to show them where they are going wrong. And yet you do the opposite. I'm intrigued to know why you are so reluctant to share what you think is the true version of what McCanns and their friends did on 3rd May, with this forum. If it was me I would be posting it in as many places as possible so that people could see the truth.
Just repeating... 'There is no evidence' ...over and over again - is not a theory - and is not going to convince anyone of anything.
I have already posted my thoughts on what happened on amazon several times already and elsewhere.
Go take a look.
Meanwhile you have an almost religious belief in abduction, very sad.
P.S. Are you of the Vee8 train of thought as regards Madeleine ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 10:07:10 AM
It most certainly has been established when the alert occurred to the nearest few minutes. There is the evidence of many people who were in or around the club just before it all kicked off. The resort was quiet at 10pm and a scene of great activity at 10.05pm, does that give you as clue?
And as the Smiths sighting was at 10pm, they saw the mystery man even before it was discovered that Madeleine had gone.
The north side of the building was quiet at 10 pm. Mr O'Brian, who came back around 9:45, had just started to eat his steak when Mrs McCann launched the alert.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 24, 2013, 10:15:58 AM
I have already posted my thoughts on what happened on amazon several times already and elsewhere.
Go take a look.
Meanwhile you have an almost religious belief in abduction, very sad.
P.S. Are you of the Vee8 train of thought as regards Madeleine ?
No I'm of the same train of thought as the Portuguese AG and Scotland Yard. As with those bodies it has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with facts, evidence, common sense, logic and reasoned thought.
I don't do Amazon, but it's become obvious to me that you don't want to post your theory on here. Let me guess - is it because 'there is no evidence' to support it? I can't think of any other reason you would want to deprive us of 'the truth' as you see it.
(Must go out now).
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 10:20:11 AM
Wholly wrong...the evidence by several members of staff put Gerry at the table eating his dinner. Attempting to place him down town carrying Madeleine at 10pm is just preposterous.
Then provide those names but remember the witnesses must not :
A) demolish completely the McCann's and their friends own timeline B) change over time.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2013, 10:20:24 AM
No I'm of the same train of thought as the Portuguese AG and Scotland Yard. As with those bodies it has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with facts, evidence, common sense, logic and reasoned thought.
I don't do Amazon, but it's become obvious to me that you don't want to post your theory on here. Let me guess - is it because 'there is no evidence' to support it? I can't think of any other reason you would want to deprive us of 'the truth' as you see it.
(Must go out now).
Read the above.
Annotated version of course.
Meanwhile there is nothing concrete that could stand up in court to support abduction.
What would a court make of the sketch made on behalf of Tanner, let alone the multiplicity of images/sketches of an 'abductor' since then.
Perhaps you should get your coat. 8)--))
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 10:22:59 AM
It most certainly has been established when the alert occurred to the nearest few minutes. There is the evidence of many people who were in or around the club just before it all kicked off. The resort was quiet at 10pm and a scene of great activity at 10.05pm, does that give you as clue?
And as the Smiths sighting was at 10pm, they saw the mystery man even before it was discovered that Madeleine had gone.
Gerry himself says the alert was around 10.13-10-15.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 10:26:15 AM
The man described by Gail Cooper as seen by her hanging around the Ocean Club Garden resort prior to the abduction could very well have been the same man seen by Jane Tanner the night Madeleine was taken.
Gail Cooper saw the man described SEVERAL WEEKS before the McCanns even arrived in PDL and, so far, the only thing that links him to the alleged abduction is Tanner's and Cooper's vivid imagination.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 10:27:32 AM
So tell me Faithfully, why would Dianne Webster lie?
Did she ? How so ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 10:29:31 AM
Abducted of course, obviously impossible, pure nonsense... are performative utterances, they aren't truth-evaluable. Words can't change reality. What is done is done, as said Lady Macbeth, what exists exists and cannot not be.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 10:42:14 AM
Mrs Tanner's carrier is faceless (she hasn't justified why on this sketch the face is like erased), her imagination was more inspired by the bottom of the pyjamas and the type of shoes, but Mrs Cooper's caricature originates perhaps in those terrors children have.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 24, 2013, 12:00:50 PM
I suggest you get out in the real world and ask normal people, not fellow mccannites what they think happened to Madeleine.
I am in the real world stephen
And I mix mainly with decent thinking people of intellect..
I have heard criticism of the fact that they were 250yards away drinking <<<< all lies, put about as disinformation.
... as the advent of GEarth and the PJ files have proved they were only 50 metres away in what effectively was the back garden to their apartment ... and they were having a meal with normal amounts of wine.
I have never come across one who thinks that the Mccanns dunit.
Just what type of person do you mix with?
Are you PJ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 24, 2013, 12:33:00 PM
And I mix mainly with decent thinking people of intellect..
I have heard criticism of the fact that they were 250yards away drinking <<<< all lies, put about as disinformation.
... as the advent of GEarth and the PJ files have proved they were only 50 metres away in what effectively was the back garden to their apartment ... and they were having a meal with normal amounts of wine.
I have never come across one who thinks that the Mccanns dunit.
Just what type of person do you mix with?
Are you PJ?
You clearly are not in the real world.
Speaking as you do to people who support your view doesn't count, i.e. the 'intellectual' ones @)(++(* @)(++(*
As to that old chestnut, they weren't in the back garden.
They were in a tapas bar, several nights in a row, wining and dining.
In the mail on one evening they consumed 10 bottles of wine, that from one of the waiters, there is also mention somewhere of 13 on one evening. Not counting anything else they drank.
Don't try giving me a lecture about the effects of alcohol and that it doesn't effect or impair peoples' judgement, because it bloody well does.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 24, 2013, 12:55:42 PM
Speaking as you do to people who support your view doesn't count, i.e. the 'intellectual' ones @)(++(* @)(++(*
As to that old chestnut, they weren't in the back garden.
They were in a tapas bar, several nights in a row, wining and dining.
In the mail on one evening they consumed 10 bottles of wine, that from one of the waiters, there is also mention somewhere of 13 on one evening. Not counting anything else they drank.
Don't try giving me a lecture about the effects of alcohol and that it doesn't effect or impair peoples' judgement, because it bloody well does.
Have you been there Stephen? I have and eaten there.
There is an inside bar and an outside restaurant.
They were NOT on the bar; they were outside in the restaurant ... and it was effectively their back garden
Citations please for the 10 bottles and 13 bottles of wine.
Stephen
Quote
Don't try giving me a lecture about the effects of alcohol and that it doesn't effect or impair peoples' judgement, because it bloody well does.
On this forum we all know, very well, about the effects of alcohol, don't we? You picked a bad one there Stephen
Now a proper theory, please, if you want to have any creditability at all.
......... moderated .......
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 01:02:01 PM
While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched. This is the GA final report. No evidence of abduction nor concealment of corpse, no nothing, but investigation hampered inter allia by refusal of reconstruction by the TP7, who had the choice. Therefore those who assume there was an abduction do it with contempt of the Portuguese Ministério Public, the equivalent of the CPS. Everybody has the absolute right to believe in the abduction, but it has to be clearly expressed it's an opinion, not a fact. No debate is possible otherwise.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 01:05:07 PM
So Gerry was in the Tapas bar, when Kate went to do her check, 10pm. Gerry was in the Tapas bar, when Kate raised the alarm 10.10 pm, ish.
But he wasn't in the Tapas bar between 9.50 and 10pm, when Martin Smith saw him, some 400 metre's away. 8-)(--)
Gerry claims himself that the alarm was raised no earlier than 10.13 and there is no clear independent witness evidence that categorically puts him in the tapas bar before this time. The location of the Smith sighting is a mere 5-8 minute brisk walk from the OC so it is entirely possible that after the Smith sighting Gerry turned right, concealed the body and was back at the tapas for the alarm.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 01:35:34 PM
At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her apartment to check on her children. She came back totally shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in her bedroom. (MO's first statement) (Matthew O) clarifies that that news (the disappearance) had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well. The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 24, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her apartment to check on her children. She came back totally shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in her bedroom. (MO's first statement) (Matthew O) clarifies that that news (the disappearance) had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well. The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Where does he say this "he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50".
You seem to have different files?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 24, 2013, 01:56:48 PM
Gerry claims himself that the alarm was raised no earlier than 10.13 and there is no clear independent witness evidence that categorically puts him in the tapas bar before this time. The location of the Smith sighting is a mere 5-8 minute brisk walk from the OC so it is entirely possible that after the Smith sighting Gerry turned right, concealed the body and was back at the tapas for the alarm.
So its a mere 5-8 minute brisk walk from the OC?. How long was it said the walk from the Tapas to the apartment was? How long did it take the Smiths to walk a straight line from the sighting to their complex?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 24, 2013, 02:09:34 PM
At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her apartment to check on her children. She came back totally shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in her bedroom. (MO's first statement) (Matthew O) clarifies that that news (the disappearance) had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well. The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Where does he say this "he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50".
You seem to have different files?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
Where does he say this "he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50".
You seem to have different files?
Different files?
Its in Oldfields second statement 11 May, page 915 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Timelines (tapas group as well as other witnesses) are a dogs dinner, must have been a nightmare for SY to *forensically* analyse them
That time would make sense though in so far as it will have been around half an hour after Gerrys return from previous check but make not the same sense going just 10 minutes after Oldfields return from 9.30 check, considering they said they checked every half hour
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 24, 2013, 04:51:34 PM
Its in Oldfields second statement 11 May, page 915 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Timelines (tapas group as well as other witnesses) are a dogs dinner, must have been a nightmare for SY to *forensically* analyse them
That time would make sense though in so far as it will have been around half an hour after Gerrys return from previous check but make not the same sense going just 10 minutes after Oldfields return from 9.30 check, considering they said they checked every half hour
At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her apartment to check on her children. She came back totally shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in her bedroom. (MO's first statement) (Matthew O) clarifies that that news (the disappearance) had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well. The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 04:58:45 PM
DCI the first sentence in Annes post (first two lines) refers to the first statement. the rest of the post refers to the second statement, Anne obviously just forgot to add *from MO's second statement* at the end of her post,thats all,but at least you have your answer where the 21.50 came from now, she obviously didnt make it up so a quick copy and paste into google would have brought up the info
Edited
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 05:19:36 PM
Where does he say this "he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50".
You seem to have different files?
How could I ? 2nd statement. Sorry, Redblossom, I hadn't read your post ! Actually I intended to show that accuracy in time is impossible to establish. Little details like the quantity of steak eaten by Mr O'Brian could help.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 24, 2013, 05:29:37 PM
DCI the first sentence in Annes post (first two lines) refers to the first statement. the rest of the post refers to the second statement, Anne obviously just forgot to add *from MO's second statement* at the end of her post,thats all,but at least you have your answer where the 21.50 came from now
Thanks Red.
He also say's or the translator said.
By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
Noticing the disappearance KM returned in panic to the restaurant where the deponent was in order to tell her husband, GM.
So at 21.50 Gerry was in the Tapas bar? As he was when Kate raised the alarm?! That makes Smith sighting even less plausible, don't you think?
Note from Albym
[M Oldfield's Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield. If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
No problem Anne
DCI Ive never been convinced Gerry Mccann was the Smithman, as there isnt really any evidence he was or could have been, probably as highly unlikely as Tannerman being Smithman and/or being Cooperman
Generally in this case there have been too many phoney *suspects* in this case, its completely unprecedented. No wonder the PJ were flummoxed with the various showers of shit that hit them for months and months.
Eta, you said:
If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
Well, after reading all their rogatory interviews, I think the majority of people would have difficulty listening to or understanding them! And thats in their own language
@)(++(*
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
Noticing the disappearance KM returned in panic to the restaurant where the deponent was in order to tell her husband, GM.
So at 21.50 Gerry was in the Tapas bar? As he was when Kate raised the alarm?! That makes Smith sighting even less plausible, don't you think?
Note from Albym
[M Oldfield's Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield. If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
Gerry was in the tapas bar at 21.50. Where does anyone categorically say that ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 24, 2013, 06:09:49 PM
Gerry was in the tapas bar at 21.50. Where does anyone categorically say that ?
Technically nothing but I dont see GM dashing around with even half hour windows walking his dead child theough the streets to hide her and sprinting back, he aint that dumb, IF he did anything it would havebeen much smarter
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 24, 2013, 06:30:38 PM
Technically nothing but I dont see GM dashing around with even half hour windows walking his dead child theough the streets to hide her and sprinting back, he aint that dumb, IF he did anything it would havebeen much smarter
I agree, if he had time to plan. If Gerry was the man Martin Smith saw then his actions must have been borne of panic and not logical thought.
I'm not categorically saying that Gerry was the carrier the Smiths saw, I'm saying, within the timeline presented, it is a possibility.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 06:36:17 PM
If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.]
Well, after reading all their rogatory interviews, I think the majority of people would have difficulty listening to or understanding them! And thats in their own language
@)(++(*
No I didn't. Try reading the post properly, before jumping down my throat!
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 06:46:29 PM
No I didn't. Try reading the post properly, before jumping down my throat!
A) I wasnt jumping down your throat, tetchy B) I read and totally understood your post C) I was being sardonic in generql about the rogatory interviews and the shambolic answers given
8)--))
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 06:47:10 PM
I agree, if he had time to plan. If Gerry was the man Martin Smith saw then his actions must have been borne of panic and not logical thought.
I'm not categorically saying that Gerry was the carrier the Smiths saw, I'm saying, within the timeline presented, it is a possibility.
I agree with this. Many elements contradict categorically (imo) the idea of staging with ou without the agreement implicit or explicit of some members of the group. Doctors imperatively must be able to react pragmatically. Panic and clinic are antinomic.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 24, 2013, 06:56:15 PM
That time would make sense though in so far as it will have been around half an hour after Gerrys return from previous check but make not the same sense going just 10 minutes after Oldfields return from 9.30 check, considering they said they checked every half hour
Mr Oldfield's checking inside is doubtful (isn't on the first timeline and he described his bedroom instead of the McCanns' one), he went inside of his flat and would likely have heard noise coming from the McCann children bedroom (common wall). This would explain why Mrs McCann went to do her check earlier than half an hour later. It would explain also why she wasn't asked to listen to the Oldfield baby nor accompanied by Mr or Mrs Oldfield.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 24, 2013, 07:02:16 PM
Mr Oldfield's checking inside is doubtful (isn't on the first timeline and he described his bedroom instead of the McCanns' one), he went inside of his flat and would likely have heard noise coming from the McCann children bedroom (common wall). This would explain why Mrs McCann went to do her check earlier than half an hour later. It would explain also why she wasn't asked to listen to the Oldfield baby nor accompanied by Mr or Mrs Oldfield.
I agree with most of that, there are serious problems with MOs alledged check inmore ways than one
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2013, 10:05:00 AM
Sorry but I can't make head nor tail of your reasoning here Stephen. What exactly are you saying the Tapas 7 agreed to do and why?
If, as you think, Madeleine died in the apartment, then the rest of the group would have no more responsibility for that - than any other holidaymakers on that complex. They wouldn't need to do thing.
It can't be that they didn't want the police to know about their childcare arrangements - because that's the first thing they told the police. In fact they even wrote the details down and handed it to them.
So if it wasn't that - then what was their reason for agreeing to put themselves at risk of being jailed for perjury, perverting the course of justice, and aiding and abetting the disposal of a child's body? You must have a reason Stephen.
And where does Mrs. Webster come into all this? She had no-one to be responsible for except herself - so why would she agree to take part in a heinous crime, and risk ending up in a jail in a foreign country in her 60's, where she didn't speak the language - and with her husband thousands of miles away in the UK. She hardly knew the McCanns. And do you really think her daughter would allow her own mother - a grandmother, to put herself in such terrible danger?
Anyone who believes that is living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 25, 2013, 10:55:04 AM
Sorry but I can't make head nor tail of your reasoning here Stephen. What exactly are you saying the Tapas 7 agreed to do and why?
If, as you think, Madeleine died in the apartment, then the rest of the group would have no more responsiblity for that - than any other holidaymakers on that complex. They wouldn't need to do thing.
It can't be that they didn't want the police to know about their childcare arrangements - because that's the first thing they told the police. In fact they even wrote the details down and handed it to them.
So if it wasn't that - then what was their reason for agreeing to put themselves at risk of being jailed for perjury, perverting the course of justice, and aiding and abetting the disposal of a child's body? You must have a reason Stephen.
And where does Mrs. Webster come into all this? She had no-one to be responsible for except herself - so why would she agree to take part in a heinous crime, and risk ending up in a jail in a foreign country in her 60's, where she didn't speak the language - and with her husband thousands of miles away in the UK. She hardly knew the McCanns. And do you really think her daughter would allow her own mother - a grandmother, to put herself in such terrible danger?
Anyone who believes that is living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
Only people I've heard of who make a conscientious effort to remain mis-informed.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 25, 2013, 10:58:15 AM
Until we know why events happened that night we can't know for sure how deeply, if at all, individuals were involved.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2013, 11:01:42 AM
Sorry but I can't make head nor tail of your reasoning here Stephen. What exactly are you saying the Tapas 7 agreed to do and why?
If, as you think, Madeleine died in the apartment, then the rest of the group would have no more responsiblity for that - than any other holidaymakers on that complex. They wouldn't need to do thing.
It can't be that they didn't want the police to know about their childcare arrangements - because that's the first thing they told the police. In fact they even wrote the details down and handed it to them.
So if it wasn't that - then what was their reason for agreeing to put themselves at risk of being jailed for perjury, perverting the course of justice, and aiding and abetting the disposal of a child's body? You must have a reason Stephen.
And where does Mrs. Webster come into all this? She had no-one to be responsible for except herself - so why would she agree to take part in a heinous crime, and risk ending up in a jail in a foreign country in her 60's, where she didn't speak the language - and with her husband thousands of miles away in the UK. She hardly knew the McCanns. And do you really think her daughter would allow her own mother - a grandmother, to put herself in such terrible danger?
Anyone who believes that is living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
The only persons clearly living in cloud cuckoo land as those who continue to support the unsupportable.
Cover ups exist for a variety of reasons, whether you accept my view is irrelevant.
Now about the CRB check, for parents found guilty of neglect, would they be allowed to work with children in the UK ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
The only persons clearly living in cloud cuckoo land as those who continue to support the unsupportable.
Cover ups exist for a variety of reasons, whether you accept my view is irrelevant.
Now about the CRB check, for parents found guilty of neglect, would they be allowed to work with children in the UK ?
Ignoring your attempt at a deflection which has no bearing on this case - can you tell me the ''variety of reasons'' which you think the Tapas 7 had - to make them come to probably the most monumentally dangerous decision they'd ever made in their whole lives, and one which could ruin their own lives forever - including losing their own children - on behalf of two people - who some of them hardly knew?
Where's your common sense Stephen?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 25, 2013, 03:21:05 PM
Until we know why events happened that night we can't know for sure how deeply, if at all, individuals were involved.
Absolutely. Only when and if someone confesses one day, will justice be able to determine, with the involved person(s), the truth or the closest to it.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on June 25, 2013, 03:24:57 PM
Absolutely. Only when and if someone confesses one day, will justice be able to determine, with the involved person(s), the truth or the closest to it.
Just wait and see. Might not be long now.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 25, 2013, 03:30:58 PM
Faithfully,
How can the person the Smiths saw be Gerry McCann?
The Smiths saw the man at about 10/five past 10.
Gerry McCann was in the Tapas Bar when Kate alerted to Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Redblossom on June 25, 2013, 09:31:49 PM
Leave from 5A, meet the Smith and come back is about 6 minutes. Not impossible. More important is what noted Mr Smith in May 2007 : the uncomfortable way to carry the child. Though he didn't doubt they were father and child. I can find only one explanation to this. When Mr Smith saw the McCanns getting out of the plane, it was like the madeleine of Marcel Proust. I suppose everybody knows what this madeleine is.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 26, 2013, 08:28:21 AM
Oh, yes, that'd make sense, Gerry runs off carrying Madeliene, sees the Smith's & immediately runs BACK again (as there'd be no time for him to do ANYTHING else as he was seen a few minutes later in the garden of the OC). So what happened to the child then? Conveniently beamed up by Scotty to Starship Enterprise?
It's just an impossible scenario & the SY are perfectly right in discarding it as such.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 26, 2013, 08:48:44 AM
Oh, yes, that'd make sense, Gerry runs off carrying Madeliene, sees the Smith's & immediately runs BACK again (as there'd be no time for him to do ANYTHING else as he was seen a few minutes later in the garden of the OC). So what happened to the child then? Conveniently beamed up by Scotty to Starship Enterprise?
It's just an impossible scenario & the SY are perfectly right in discarding it as such.
How do you know this 'child' was Madeleine ?
It's pure supposition.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 26, 2013, 09:15:29 AM
Leave from 5A, meet the Smith and come back is about 6 minutes. Not impossible. More important is what noted Mr Smith in May 2007 : the uncomfortable way to carry the child. Though he didn't doubt they were father and child. I can find only one explanation to this. When Mr Smith saw the McCanns getting out of the plane, it was like the madeleine of Marcel Proust. I suppose everybody knows what this madeleine is.
It is impossible !!
Can you imagine Gerry carrying Madeleine down to the beach area, to go where?? to hide her where?? Remember the beach area was searched.
Then he would have to get back in time for Kate to make the alert.
Much much longer than six minutes.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on June 26, 2013, 09:16:08 AM
Can you imagine Gerry carrying Madeleine down to the beach area, to go where?? to hide her where?? Remember the beach area was searched.
Then he would have to get back in time for Kate to make the alert.
Much much longer than six minutes.
According to Amaral's thesis, he apparently also had to dig a large hole in the sand for a temporary burial (with his bare hands). It's total & utter insanity.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 26, 2013, 09:31:11 AM
According to Amaral's thesis, he apparently also had to dig a large hole in the sand for a temporary burial (with his bare hands). It's total & utter insanity.
Can you give me a link to where he says this ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 26, 2013, 10:33:48 AM
Can you imagine Gerry carrying Madeleine down to the beach area, to go where?? to hide her where?? Remember the beach area was searched.
Then he would have to get back in time for Kate to make the alert.
Much much longer than six minutes.
If you turn right at the end of the road the carrier was seen on you are a very short distance from the OC and a body could be concealed along the way in a bin or abandoned building. Remember the searchers were looking for a live child, not a dead body.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 26, 2013, 11:52:46 AM
If you turn right at the end of the road the carrier was seen on you are a very short distance from the OC and a body could be concealed along the way in a bin or abandoned building. Remember the searchers were looking for a live child, not a dead body.
It can't be a bin, because according to Amaral the body was collected 3 weeks later - and the bins would have been emptied long before then. I would have thought 'abandoned buildings' would be the obvious places to look - especially by the locals who were searching.
The idea that the McCanns, (in the full glare of reporters - all of whom were desperate for 'copy'), would even entertain the idea of getting into their car to go down the road, park up, - retrieve the body from a building in PdL, then carry it out to the car, drive off somewhere else and then remove it from the boot, hide/bury it, then get back into their car and calmly drive home is too ludicrous for words. They would have to be stark staring mad to even think about doing that.
The man the Smith's saw wasn't Gerry - it was a physical impossibility - unless he was wearing a bright blue suit with a big yellow 'S' on the front and red underpants over his tights. As far as I know no such outfit has been discovered in PdL....
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 26, 2013, 12:20:37 PM
It can't be a bin, because according to Amaral the body was collected 3 weeks later - and the bins would have been emptied long before then. I would have thought 'abandoned buildings' would be the obvious places to look - especially by the locals who were searching.
The idea that the McCanns, (in the full glare of reporters - all of whom were desperate for 'copy'), would even entertain the idea of getting into their car to go down the road, park up, - retrieve the body from a building in PdL, then carry it out to the car, drive off somewhere else and then remove it from the boot, hide/bury it, then get back into their car and calmly drive home is too ludicrous for words. They would have to be stark staring mad to even think about doing that.
The man the Smith's saw wasn't Gerry - it was a physical impossibility - unless he was wearing a bright blue suit with a big yellow 'S' on the front and red underpants over his tights. As far as I know no such outfit has been discovered in PdL....
I don't believe a body was ever in the Scenic to be honest and I think that Amaral has given the McCanns an ace card by hypothesising that it was because while the public are focusing on the impossibility of a body in the car their attention is being taken away from the very real possibility of a body in the apartment. This is apparent by time spent by supporters discussing the alerts connected to the car as opposed to the time spent discussing the apartment alerts, which are very much harder to dismiss.
As to the Smith sighting , I have walked the streets of PDL, I know what can be achieved in the timescale available and I know what is possible, if not probable and Gerry being the man the Smiths saw is absolutely possible.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Benice on June 26, 2013, 01:01:43 PM
I don't believe a body was ever in the Scenic to be honest and I think that Amaral has given the McCanns an ace card by hypothesising that it was because while the public are focusing on the impossibility of a body in the car their attention is being taken away from the very real possibility of a body in the apartment. This is apparent by time spent by supporters discussing the alerts connected to the car as opposed to the time spent discussing the apartment alerts, which are very much harder to dismiss.
As to the Smith sighting , I have walked the streets of PDL, I know what can be achieved in the timescale available and I know what is possible, if not probable and Gerry being the man the Smiths saw is absolutely possible.
So do you think Gerry was walking round the streets of PdL - randomly looking for a place, or do you think he already knew of one? If so, then how and when did he know of it? Why would he choose 10 oclock at night to go walking off with the body, and risk being seen, (which apparently he was - by the Smiths ) when he could have done it in the middle of the night at his leisure? It makes no sense Faith. He is not a stupid man.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: faithlilly on June 26, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
So do you think Gerry was walking round the streets of PdL - randomly looking for a place, or do you think he already knew of one? If so, then how and when did he know of it? Why would he choose 10 oclock at night to go walking off with the body, and risk being seen, (which apparently he was - by the Smiths ) when he could have done it in the middle of the night at his leisure? It makes no sense Faith. He is not a stupid man.
If the man the Smith's saw was Gerry then I would think his choice of hiding place was practical rather than strategic, in that it was probably the first place he came across. The concealing of the body, if found, could be blamed on the abductor therefore I'm not sure that the place chosen was chosen for concealment in the longterm but simply to put distance between the McCanns and the body and to bolster the story of abduction.
As to removing the body at around 10pm rather than in the middle of the night there may be many reasons for this, among them :
1. Panicked reaction by McCanns. 2. If the body was found the time of death would be absolutely apparent so how would the McCanns explain that someone had abducted an already dead body ? 3. If seen it be much less conspicuous to be carrying around a child at 10pm when parents would be bringing their children from the crèche than in the early hours of the morning.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 02:38:07 PM
The police by this stage would have been stupid to not to consider that Madeleine could have perhaps be deceased
The fact is they didn't, or at least it didn't pass their mind that a body could have been disposed of in a container (only days after, too late). Perpetrators usually don't bother doing that. But it passed UK experts' minds.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 02:47:48 PM
Quote from: Benice on Today at 11:52:46 AM It can't be a bin, because according to Amaral the body was collected 3 weeks later - and the bins would have been emptied long before then.
"Because" ? I reckon Inspector Amaral's hasty theory of body transfers has finally some utility ! Nothing of this happened, I'd bet my soul if I had one. What happened was simple and radical or wasn't.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 03:05:03 PM
If the man the Smith's saw was Gerry then I would think his choice of hiding place was practical rather than strategic, in that it was probably the first place he came across. The concealing of the body, if found, could be blamed on the abductor therefore I'm not sure that the place chosen was chosen for concealment in the longterm but simply to put distance between the McCanns and the body and to bolster the story of abduction.
As to removing the body at around 10pm rather than in the middle of the night there may be many reasons for this, among them :
1. Panicked reaction by McCanns. 2. If the body was found the time of death would be absolutely apparent so how would the McCanns explain that someone had abducted an already dead body ? 3. If seen it be much less conspicuous to be carrying around a child at 10pm when parents would be bringing their children from the crèche than in the early hours of the morning.
This kind of act requires an enormous epinephrine release, crucial component of the fight-or-flight response. I'll add rigor mortis a fortiori because it was chilly.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 02:34:53 PM
With respect I disagree Anne for the very simple reason is that a child will go to the light and not the dark. There was a light on in the lounge and there would have been light coming in the patio door. There would also be sound coming from that direction.
With respect, John (aren't you always respectful ?)... I disagree. I don't think Madeleine would have taken the risk to fall, steps in the darkness with tricky safety barrier. On the other side, the corridor had permanent lights, the ground was smooth (tiles ?) and the wall separating the corridor from the car park provided some kind of protection : it wasn't as if she had left home.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: John on June 28, 2013, 02:38:09 PM
With respect, John (aren't you always respectful ?)... I disagree. I don't think Madeleine would have taken the risk to fall, steps in the darkness with tricky safety barrier. On the other side, the corridor had permanent lights, the ground was smooth (tiles ?) and the wall separating the corridor from the car park provided some kind of protection : it wasn't as if she had left home.
I agree about the steps. If she had even ventured out into the patio I have no doubt she would have bawled her head off! She didn't.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 02:39:50 PM
With respect I disagree Anne for the very simple reason is that a child will go to the light and not the dark. There was a light on in the lounge and there would have been light coming in the patio door. There would also be sound coming from that direction.
Mrs Fenn, would have heard the patio doors open too, surely?
Title: Re: Could Madeleines remains have been deposited in a trolley bin?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 02:42:12 PM
My observation would be that if it was a set-up then the McCanns would have locked the patio door. Evidence is that they didn't. Additionally if it was their intention to attribute the blame to a third person in a situation with an unlocked patio door then finding the door ajar or open would have been the ideal scenario. Again it wasn't.
The evidence is that Madeleine was an intelligent youngster. Consequently there is no reason to suspect she was anything less than street savvy.
The dog alerts are meaningless as the entire exercise was a charade. Grime himself admits that without positive forensic evidence the dogs might as well never have been there.
We can debate the locked/unlocked doors til the cows come home.
Do we have irrefutable evidence that on that night the doors, either of them were unlocked, or are we relying solely on the Mccanns say do ?
Secondly, I have been teaching for several decades and I have yet to see a 3 year old who is road savvy. Young children are very impulsive and do not react as an adult would.
As to the dog alerts, no debate on that, the D.N.A. ANALYSIS was inconclusive, but as an ex copper how many times did you investigate cases where not enough evidence was available to charge someone, but your experience and knowledge indicated otherwise ?
The PJ did not initially investigate the Mccanns, until UK police pointed in their direction.
Title: Re: Could Madeleines remains have been deposited in a trolley bin?
Post by: John on June 28, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
We can debate the locked/unlocked doors til the cows come home.
Do we have irrefutable evidence that on that night the doors, either of them were unlocked, or are we relying solely on the Mccanns say do ?
Secondly, I have been teaching for several decades and I have yet to see a 3 year old who is road savvy. Young children are very impulsive and do not react as an adult would.
As to the dog alerts, no debate on that, the D.N.A. ANALYSIS was inconclusive, but as an ex copper how many times did you investigate cases where not enough evidence was available to charge someone, but your experience and knowledge indicated otherwise ?
The PJ did not initially investigate the Mccanns, until UK police pointed in their direction.
She was almost 4 and highly intelligent, a big difference.
Title: Re: Could Madeleines remains have been deposited in a trolley bin?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 04:03:34 PM
I'd never seen this programme before, and it really is very interesting
The approach taken by the experts ( and their credentials are unquestionable ) is methodical and rational, and well worth considering
It's interesting to see that they themselves suggest that a body could have been hidden in a bin and then been transported to a local landfill site.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
Interesting video, but well out of date now. It was rational, but lacking in evidence that is now available. I think I was most interested in why someone would take a child of Madeleine's age, which would be unlikely for predatory sexual reasons. I shall go on hoping.
Title: Re: Could Madeleines remains have been deposited in a trolley bin?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 10:26:20 AM
A 3 or 4 year old will not have much street sense.
Would you let a 3/4 year old out by themselves ?
Banal? I thought it was very much to the point.
Madeleine was a precocious child who was just a few days from her 4th birthday. She was quite capable of opening the patio door should she have chosen to do so. The lights and noises emanating from the tapas would have attracted her attention.
Street savvy or otherwise, this was never an issue.
Title: Re: Could Madeleines remains have been deposited in a trolley bin?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2013, 10:34:53 AM
Madeleine was a precocious child who was just a few days from her 4th birthday. She was quite capable of opening the patio door should she have chosen to do so. The lights and noises emanating from the tapas would have attracted her attention.
Street savvy or otherwise, this was never an issue.
Sorry John, we may be talking at cross purposes.
I'm sure Madeleine was more than capable of opening doors.
Now if she did get out at some point prior to that evening.........................
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
For me the idea that some abductor went to all the trouble to take Madeleine and then carry her all over town in full view of every passer before depositing her in some trolley bin is so preposterous so as to be a non starter.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 17, 2013, 05:46:21 AM
Sadie Says on June 22, 2013 Bundleman, presumably expecting a get-away driver and pick up on Jane Tanner corner, left OC via the car park entrance (centre foreground) and walked to the left (easterly direction). Jane Tanner came up the road from the right. Upon seeing Jane Tanner, Bundleman carried on walking straight across the road in front of him. He was well illuminated all the way.
Sadie,
Another question about bundleman:
Can we be so sure that he saw Jane Tanner?
I have little doubt that Jane saw him. She didn't get a perfect look at him - it was dark (aside from the street light from the lamp on the corner); he was some distance away; he was moving briskly; he did not turn his face toward her. But she saw him.
Now let's look at it from Bundleman's perspective. He was walking briskly; Jane was unilluminated; Jane was not only some distance away, but to his side - and he did not turn his head.
Further, Jane had the benefit of seeing him walk in front of her, right across her path, and as you say, she would be sensitive to male presence.
But would bundleman catch her out of the corner of his eye, many metres down a dark road to his side, when any turn of the head or unnecessary physical gesture could draw fatal attention?
I'm not so sure..
Could he have seen her from inside the patio doors before leaving the apartment, as he perhaps saw Gerry and Jez if he had checked that entrance/exit before leaving from the front? Would Jane have exited the OC entrance by that point? Probably not. And if she had, and he had seen her then, wouldn't he have waited for her to pass before he left the apartment?
Jane was also on the west side of the street, yes? After a couple of strides, when he stood down from the kerb as he began to cross the road, she would be 'behind' him, making it even less likely he would see her. She was nowhere in his line of vision.
Just some more thoughts....
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 17, 2013, 09:15:19 AM
Sadie Says on June 22, 2013 Bundleman, presumably expecting a get-away driver and pick up on Jane Tanner corner, left OC via the car park entrance (centre foreground) and walked to the left (easterly direction). Jane Tanner came up the road from the right. Upon seeing Jane Tanner, Bundleman carried on walking straight across the road in front of him. He was well illuminated all the way.
Sadie,
Another question about bundleman:
Can we be so sure that he saw Jane Tanner?
Of course he saw her. He was crossing a road. He looked both ways. And she was close and she was moving. Of course he saw her. and that is why he turned his head away and almost ran..
I have little doubt that Jane saw him. She didn't get a perfect look at him - it was dark (aside from the street light from the lamp on the corner); he was some distance away; he was moving briskly; he did not turn his face toward her. But she saw him.
Now let's look at it from Bundleman's perspective. He was walking briskly; Jane was unilluminated; Jane was not only some distance away, but to his side - and he did not turn his head.
Further, Jane had the benefit of seeing him walk in front of her, right across her path, and as you say, she would be sensitive to male presence.
But would bundleman catch her out of the corner of his eye, many metres down a dark road to his side, when any turn of the head or unnecessary physical gesture could draw fatal attention?
I'm not so sure..
He was crossing a road, carrying a precious little girl. He would not have crossed that road without looking ... and she was close. Yep he saw her.... and that is why he turned his head away and almost ran
Could he have seen her from inside the patio doors before leaving the apartment, as he perhaps saw Gerry and Jez if he had checked that entrance/exit before leaving from the front?
He couldn't have seen any of them from that patio window. High walls and hedges in the way.
For such a famous detective, you are not doing much in depth research are you Sherlock? Perhaps your magnifying glass needs cleaning? 8)-)))
Would Jane have exited the OC entrance by that point? Probably not. And if she had, and he had seen her then, wouldn't he have waited for her to pass before he left the apartment?
No he would not have seen her. See the high walls and hedges?
Jane was also on the west side of the street, yes? After a couple of strides, when he stood down from the kerb as he began to cross the road, she would be 'behind' him, making it even less likely he would see her. She was nowhere in his line of vision.
Was she close or was she far away Sherlock? You cant have it both ways.
If VERY close, what you say is true, but she would have had a very good look at him from close by. If he was further away, then what you are saying is not true. Her view would be partial side and partial back as he progressed across the road. From the Cutting edge video, seems she was pretty close. He turned his head away, it seems
Just some more thoughts....
If you are going to be my assisatant a little more research and attentioin to detail is needed, please ... Sherlock
What I really would like is YOUR theory of how it happened .... purrleaze
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Carana on August 17, 2013, 12:02:51 PM
You keep saying there is no evidence. The correct statement is no evidence was found. That doesn't mean it never existed. Even Amaral commented on the shortcomings of the forensic officers.
Other evidence is:-
Shutters left closed and then found to be open Window left closed and then found to be open A sighting by Jane Tanner A sighting by the Smiths.
And all the hairs that seemingly never made it to the lab.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Carana on August 17, 2013, 12:08:17 PM
I presume you meant "there was no need.." or ? Mrs McCann didn't report having played with the shutters and window, she even said she never touched them during that week (planted fingerprints perhaps ?), but Mr McCann, though he broke shutters the first day (according to Mrs McCann), insisted in experimenting whether they could be opened from the outside whereas the TP6 were running around like headless chicken.
Where in the files does it say that she never touched the window?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Carana on August 17, 2013, 12:22:55 PM
There was no reason for the McCanns to take the cots out of the bedroom they were orginally in ( the one that could be seen from the tapas bar ) because both bedrooms had single beds
The McCanns took the cots out of the bedroom that could be seen from the tapas bar and pushed the single beds together to make a double ... they could have pushed the two single beds in the other room together and not have to have moved the cots at all ( and, crucially, they could have viewed the children's bedroom from the tapas bar )
The children were used to sleeping in the dark, so how would they have seen them from the Tapas Bar without a bright light on and the blinds rolled up?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 17, 2013, 12:47:18 PM
The children were used to sleeping in the dark, so how would they have seen them from the Tapas Bar without a bright light on and the blinds rolled up?
Also that room had patio doors. That might have been seen as a bit worrying to the Mccanns.
how do we know that the Mccanns moved the cots, anyway? Have I missed something?
Would have expected OC peeps to have automatically put the childrens beds in the less attractive room, and that was the room they were in. Traditionally adults get the master bedroom and kids a secondary one.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 17, 2013, 09:28:12 PM
The Paynes had a daughter in their bedroom and a daughter alone in the other bedroom. The Oldfield had no choice, they had only one bedroom. Nothing says the south bedroom was better or worse than the north one. The beds were similar. They found the cots in the south room. The cleaning lady said one cot was in the south room, the McCanns denied. If the kids had been in the south room and the abductor had lifted the blinds from the outside, they would have heard the noise.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 17, 2013, 10:37:32 PM
The Paynes had a daughter in their bedroom and a daughter alone in the other bedroom. The Oldfield had no choice, they had only one bedroom. Nothing says the south bedroom was better or worse than the north one. The beds were similar. They found the cots in the south room. The cleaning lady said one cot was in the south room, the McCanns denied. If the kids had been in the south room and the abductor had lifted the blinds from the outside, they would have heard the noise.
Ummmm? Am not sure you got your facts right there Anne. where did you get them from?
The south bedroom had better wardrobes IIRC, a bigger window/patio door, a more pleasant out look. Most people would see that as the master bedroom, I think Anne.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 18, 2013, 12:27:14 AM
Only a double bed (much more comfortable than two joined single beds) would have justified to put the kids on the side of the building they had absolutely no eye/ear control of.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 18, 2013, 12:41:20 AM
Where in the files does it say that she never touched the window?
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. Of course she could have touched the window just for the sake of touching !
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 03:14:09 AM
If you are going to be my assisatant a little more research and attentioin to detail is needed, please ... Sherlock
What I really would like is YOUR theory of how it happened .... purrleaze
Thanks for your corrections, Sadie. I have given my magnifying glass a good polish.
Now, I am still not quite convinced, however, that he definitely saw Jane.
First of all, Jane - not that we can rely on her eyesight for everything - seemed to be sure that she didn't see his face, which presumably she would have done, even just a glimpse of it, if he had turned his head. She said several times that he was looking forwards.
Could he have bent forward from further back, peeking into the road before corssing, so as not to be seen looking? Perhaps. But why, having seen the danger, would he have walked out into such a treacherous road? this is the question that bothers me.
It is hard enough to imagine why he would choose to illuminate and expose himself by walking across that road, even if he didn't see anyone before he started crossing; even more so if he did.
If I understand your theory correctly, he was crossing over towards where the car would be. Quite a dangerous rendezvous point, in view of the T9 and others emerging from the OC entrance. And apparently no plan B to meet at another place in the likely event of their bumping into people on Rua Martins.
Wouldn't there have been better options for meeting places?
Sherlock will ponder this one a bit longer....
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 03:22:27 AM
Just wanted to clarify something, Sadie, regarding what I said about bundleman being 'behind' Jane.
I didn't mean she was literally behind him. She was still some way down the road when he was crossing. I meant that she was behind him in his line of vision, in other words, he would have had to turn his head around over his shoulder to see her, after a few steps into the road. The fact that he didn't do that suggested to me that he did not see her.
Perhaps this has no implications for your theory anyway, because the main point is who wetpants may have seen, not bundleman. But I still think it is important to try to work out what exactly bundleman himself was doing. If there was another team member at this stage, some of their movements can be inferred by looking at Bundleman's.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 03:23:59 AM
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. Of course she could have touched the window just for the sake of touching !
What are you getting at Anne?
Doesn't make sense to me. Soz
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 03:29:16 AM
Just wanted to clarify something, Sadie, regarding what I said about bundleman being 'behind' Jane.
I didn't mean she was literally behind him. She was still some way down the road when he was crossing. I meant that she was behind him in his line of vision, in other words, he would have had to turn his head around over his shoulder to see her, after a few steps into the road. The fact that he didn't do that suggested to me that he did not see her.
Perhaps this has no implications for your theory anyway, because the main point is who wetpants may have seen, not bundleman. But I still think it is important to try to work out what exactly bundleman himself was doing. If there was another team member at this stage, some of their movements can be inferred by looking at Bundleman's.
He saw her, alright. He had to look both ways to cross the road and she was only about the length of a sitting room away when they first encounterd aach other, going by the Cutting edge video. He looked away. He had to keep his face out of view ... and he almost ran.
He saw her.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 03:37:03 AM
He saw her, alright. He had to look both ways to cross the road and she was only about the length of a sitting room away when they first encounterd aach other, going by the Cutting edge video. He looked away. He had to keep his face out of view ... and he almost ran.
He saw her.
I see what you mean, Sadie. He had to make sure she didn't see his face.
But it doesn't answer the question of why crossing that hazardous road was in the plan in the first place...
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 03:42:47 AM
Thanks for your corrections, Sadie. I have given my magnifying glass a good polish.
Now, I am still not quite convinced, however, that he definitely saw Jane.
He saw her
First of all, Jane - not that we can rely on her eyesight for everything - seemed to be sure that she didn't see his face, which presumably she would have done, even just a glimpse of it, if he had turned his head. She said several times that he was looking forwards.
A glimpse would not have been enough to do that drawing correctly. Better to leave the face blank than put in the wrong features, as I am sure that you would appreciate
Could he have bent forward from further back, peeking into the road before corssing, so as not to be seen looking? Perhaps. But why, having seen the danger, would he have walked out into such a treacherous road? this is the question that bothers me.
The road was not treacherous in any way. He forgot the light . He was only bothered about getting away from Jane at that moment .. and not having his face seen.
It is hard enough to imagine why he would choose to illuminate and expose himself by walking across that road, even if he didn't see anyone before he started crossing; even more so if he did.
If I understand your theory correctly, he was crossing over towards where the car would be. Quite a dangerous rendezvous point, in view of the T9 and others emerging from the OC entrance. And apparently no plan B to meet at another place in the likely event of their bumping into people on Rua Martins.
Despite your keen interest, you have not been reading what i have written Sherlock. The pick-up, IMO, was to be almost immediately by the entrance to the Northern car park of the OC.
Wouldn't there have been better options for meeting places?
Sherlock will ponder this one a bit longer....
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 03:45:52 AM
It wasn't in any plan sherlock. I do believe that you haven't even read my theory. Too many mistakes for you to have done that.
Now Good night. No doubt speak to you tomorrow
I quite understand where bundleman and wetpants were supposed to be meeting originally, according to your theory, Sadie.
My question is why pick such a vulnerable area in the first place? Why park in the first instance near the OC entrance? Why centre things around Rua Martins?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2013, 08:14:03 AM
I quite understand where bundleman and wetpants were supposed to be meeting originally, according to your theory, Sadie.
My question is why pick such a vulnerable area in the first place? Why park in the first instance near the OC entrance? Why centre things around Rua Martins?
If he had gone in the opposite direction he would almost immediately have come to a much larger main road.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 12:17:14 PM
If he had gone in the opposite direction he would almost immediately have come to a much larger main road.
Exactly. On the ball as ever Eleanor. 8((()*/
And as I said before, he came to JT corner cos he couldn't understand why the get-away driver hadn't come ... and he was dead anxious. Not likeling the feeling of standing around with a stolen little girl in his arms.
IMO of course.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2013, 02:02:30 PM
And as I said before, he came to JT corner cos he couldn't understand why the get-away driver hadn't come ... and he was dead anxious. Not likeling the feeling of standing around with a stolen little girl in his arms.
IMO of course.
He went the only way he could, Sadie. He had no choice.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 02:32:04 PM
He went the only way he could, Sadie. He had no choice.
Exactly Eleanor
Sherlock, you seem to be missing obvious things. And using woolley language.
What do you mean by "parked near the OC entrance" ? Does you mean opposite the Tapas reception ?... or do you mean by the drive in to the Northern car park of OC, or by the actually entrance to the flats by that walled pathway at the entrance to all the flats ?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 06:11:22 PM
And as I said before, he came to JT corner cos he couldn't understand why the get-away driver hadn't come ... and he was dead anxious. Not likeling the feeling of standing around with a stolen little girl in his arms.
IMO of course.
Thank you Sadie. I am not spelling it out enough.
I am referring to bundleman's accomplice being parked in the car park right opposite the reception area. It was such an exposed spot: in full view of many apartments, and vulnerable to being witnessed by people going in and out of the reception entrance. This was not the designated pick-up point, I appreciate that, but it was a very dangerous place to be hovering about, nonetheless.
Yes, there was a main road in the other direction, Elanor, as you point out. But in relative terms, Rua Martins carried significantly more danger for the abductors. It was the very road where the people they were trying hardest to avoid -T9 - were using! Everything is relative.
(And why wouldn't they want to be near a main road? Surely covering as much distance away from Luz in the shortest time possible would have made most sense.)
Getting back to your theory, Sadie, the fact that T9 members appeared in the street at the 'wrong' time, as I understand, was the very reason that things went awry.
By this logic, the abductors appear to have been banking on having a completely clear street for the duration of their operation. Otherwise panic stations. However swift their operation could well have been, that just wasn't a realistic expectation. The abductors themselves would have known that, because they had been watching T9 movements for days. Any one of T9 could have left their seats at any point - and they did.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on August 18, 2013, 06:16:20 PM
Thank you Sadie. I am not spelling it out enough.
I am referring to bundleman's accomplice being parked in the car park right opposite the reception area. It was such an exposed spot: in full view of many apartments, and vulnerable to being witnessed by people going in and out of the reception entrance. This was not the designated pick-up point, I appreciate that, but it was a very dangerous place to be hovering about, nonetheless.
Yes, there was a main road in the other direction, Elanor, as you point out. But in relative terms, Rua Martins carried significantly more danger for the abductors. It was the very road where the people they were trying hardest to avoid -T9 - were using! Everything is relative.
(And why wouldn't they want to be near a main road? Surely covering as much distance away from Luz in the shortest time possible would have made most sense.)
Getting back to your theory, Sadie, the fact that T9 members appeared in the street at the 'wrong' time, as I understand, was the very reason that things went awry.
By this logic, the abductors appear to have been banking on having a completely clear street for the duration of their operation. Otherwise panic stations. However swift their operation could well have been, that just wasn't a realistic expectation. The abductors themselves would have known that, because they had been watching T9 movements for days. Any one of T9 could have left their seats at any point - and they did.
Sherlock - Someone had already checked the children when Gerry went for his check. How would the abductor expect that to happen? Then how would the abductor expect Jez to turn up for a chat with Gerry?
How could the abductor have know that Jane's child would be sick and that Jane would be going to check at that time?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 06:43:12 PM
Sherlock - Someone had already checked the children when Gerry went for his check. How would the abductor expect that to happen? Then how would the abductor expect Jez to turn up for a chat with Gerry?
How could the abductor have know that Jane's child would be sick and that Jane would be going to check at that time?
Hello Lace,
That's exactly my point. The abductor(s) could not control what happened that night.
There were all the designated checks, about which the abductor (s) would have had a fair idea. But there would always be the possibility of unseen eventualities, such as the examples you give above. Because of Jane's sick child, and parents checking on each other's children, pedestrian traffic on Rua Martins was much heavier that night than the abductor (s) had planned for. Too dangerous a place to driving up, walking across - whatever you like.
The abductor (s) could not have been anticipating these specific eventualities, no. But they should have formulated a plan flexible enough to account for the fact that at least one member of T9 was likely to have appeared on the scene at some point, whatever the reason may have been.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on August 18, 2013, 06:59:09 PM
Abductor's take risks too Sherlock otherwise no child would be abducted.
As far as the abductor knew a check had been done by Gerry, Gerry had left all was clear to take Madeleine. Unfortunately things changed very quickly.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 07:11:23 PM
Abductor's take risks too Sherlock otherwise no child would be abducted.
As far as the abductor knew a check had been done by Gerry, Gerry had left all was clear to take Madeleine. Unfortunately things changed very quickly.
Very true, Lace.
However, I am referring in my posts here to the question of the missing car, and the so-called 'professionalism' of the accomplice driver who leaves bundleman in the lurch, as per Sadie's theory.
Sadie's suggestion that the accomplice with the car fled the scene upon seeing members of T9 in the street is odd to me, because, even if the coast had been clear when bundleman entered the apartment, it was to be expected that members of T9 could have appeared at any point. Why would this more than likely occurrence have been such a shock to the accomplice as to make him flee? And why wouldn't the abductors have come up with a plan B in case this happened, or factored it into plan A?
I am trying understand why a 'professional' team would behave like this, and indeed, if there was ever a team on the ground in the first place.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on August 18, 2013, 07:15:02 PM
I think the abductor was going to meet someone then make his way to the beach area. This person could have had a car.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 07:24:40 PM
I think the abductor was going to meet someone then make his way to the beach area. This person could have had a car.
The problem is the Smith sighting, where he still doesn't appear to have located a car, 45 minutes later.
Here's what I said about that in another thread (re Sadie's theory, August 16th):
But now let's turn to bundleman himself. Did he handle things any better than wetpants (Sadie's scarpering driver)? In the absence of any certainties as to what Bundleman did in the time immediately following the events of 9.15, let's fast-forward to the Smith sighting. It is almost inconceivable that parading around the town with Madeleine, circa the very time her disappearance was being discovered, could have constituted anyone's plan. It's one thing walking across a road (Rua Martins); quite another to head for the nightspots (the social area near the church which bundleman appeared to be walking towards when he passed Family Smith). Would a jewel thief run the streets amok after a major heist, casting his treasures skyward?
I agree with Sadie that, if there was a team, something went wrong. The question is, what?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on August 18, 2013, 07:30:49 PM
The problem is the Smith sighting, where he still doesn't appear to have located a car, 45 minutes later.
Here's what I said about that in another thread (re Sadie's theory, August 16th):
But now let's turn to bundleman himself. Did he handle things any better than wetpants (Sadie's scarpering driver)? In the absence of any certainties as to what Bundleman did in the time immediately following the events of 9.15, let's fast-forward to the Smith sighting. It is almost inconceivable that parading around the town with Madeleine, circa the very time her disappearance was being discovered, could have constituted anyone's plan. It's one thing walking across a road (Rua Martins); quite another to head for the nightspots (the social area near the church which bundleman appeared to be walking towards when he passed Family Smith). Would a jewel thief run the streets amok after a major heist, casting his treasures skyward?
I agree with Sadie that, if there was a team, something went wrong. The question is, what?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Lace on August 18, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
I believe the abductor either met with someone else as I have already said [could this person have driven him so far to where he was seen by the Smiths] Or he went to hide out somewhere to kill time.
It is difficult not say that the person Jane saw and the person the Smiths saw was not the same man. They were dressed the same, more or less the same height. Didn't look like a tourist as both said. The child was blonde a girl of three or four, bare footed.
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
I believe the abductor either met with someone else as I have already said [could this person have driven him so far to where he was seen by the Smiths] Or he went to hide out somewhere to kill time.
It is difficult not say that the person Jane saw and the person the Smiths saw was not the same man. They were dressed the same, more or less the same height. Didn't look like a tourist as both said. The child was blonde a girl of three or four, bare footed.
8@??)(
Could have gone to the Staff Quarters too?
Title: Re: So what are the various scenarios available to us?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 18, 2013, 11:08:02 PM