Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: gilet on September 25, 2013, 09:06:03 PM
Title: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 25, 2013, 09:06:03 PM
The McCanns were not happy about the files being released at all ... "To every Tom, Dick, and Harry" as Kate put it
Added to which, we found out in court this week that even their own private detective was not given access to the full translated files, so there is little likelihood of the McCanns sharing the information they have with the public
Just for the record I agree 100% with Kate McCann on this issue.
It is disgraceful, in my opinion that the files of this case were released in the way they were and that illegally, they have been published in the way they have been.
Such a release will most certainly have deterred (and will in the future deter) others from volunteering information to the PJ.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Montclair on September 25, 2013, 11:00:52 PM
So, Kate and Gerry were upset that the police files were available to every Tom, Dick and Harry! Didn't they realise that the police files are always made public so that every Tom, Dick and Harry can read them if they wish to. Their lawyer must have told them.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 25, 2013, 11:04:47 PM
So, Kate and Gerry were upset that the police files were available to every Tom, Dick and Harry! Didn't they realise that the police files are always made public so that every Tom, Dick and Harry can read them if they wish to. Their lawyer must have told them.
Their reaction is that of any normal British citizen who is totally unused to that action. Totally normal.
I am appalled that the system exists. It must certainly put people off the thought of volunteering to help the police and make statements when they are not compelled to do so because they know everything they say will be made public.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Montclair on September 25, 2013, 11:21:34 PM
Their reaction is that of any normal British citizen who is totally unused to that action. Totally normal.
I am appalled that the system exists. It must certainly put people off the thought of volunteering to help the police and make statements when they are not compelled to do so because they know everything they say will be made public.
The disclosure of police and court files is normal in Portugal and is done in the name transparency. It is important that everyone knows what the courts decide or what the police do. Perhaps you might think that it is normal to have secret courts in Britain but that idea does not exist here. And it certainly does not put off people from cooperating and volunteering information. Just because our system is different from the British does not make it worse. I'm sorry that the concept of transparency bothered Kate and Gerry.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 25, 2013, 11:38:02 PM
The disclosure of police and court files is normal in Portugal and is done in the name transparency. It is important that everyone knows what the courts decide or what the police do. Perhaps you might think that it is normal to have secret courts in Britain but that idea does not exist here. And it certainly does not put off people from cooperating and volunteering information. Just because our system is different from the British does not make it worse. I'm sorry that the concept of transparency bothered Kate and Gerry.
The difference is not that our criminal system is in general secret but that only evidence which is actually pertinent to the case/trial is disclosed.
All evidence given in court is available in full transcript format after the trial. That is hardly secret courts. It is perfectly transparent.
I have asked is that available in Portugal but no-one seems to be able to answer. Perhaps you could.
I doubt it was the concept of transparency that worried them, they are used to that.
It was the fact that every tiny detail such as people's phone numbers were revealed. That is considered totally unacceptable here and I am personally shocked that the PT authorities do not understand how intimidating it could be to witnesses to know that the people they are giving evidence against can have their phone numbers and addresses and passport numbers etc. Actually I think it is scandalous and utterly stupid in this era of online fraud.
Do you really endorse the revealing of all that personal information about potentially vulnerable people and think it improves society?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 25, 2013, 11:45:17 PM
I agree plainly that personal data should never be revealed. But you will not find those in Pamalam's site, because they were removed. The DVD was originally made for journalists or researchers, counting on their discretion. The MP never thought it would be on Internet in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 25, 2013, 11:53:13 PM
I agree plainly that personal data should never be revealed. But you will not find those in Pamalam's site, because they were removed. The DVD was originally made for journalists or researchers, counting on their discretion. The MP never thought it would be on Internet in a nutshell.
That is the problem with trusting people like Duarte Levy who distributed unredacted copies of the DVD.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: John on September 26, 2013, 11:18:24 AM
Please note guys, this question has been given its own thread.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2013, 11:24:46 AM
Just for the record I agree 100% with Kate McCann on this issue.
It is disgraceful, in my opinion that the files of this case were released in the way they were and that illegally, they have been published in the way they have been.
Such a release will most certainly have deterred (and will in the future deter) others from volunteering information to the PJ.
I certainly agree with that, but I would go further.
I think the whole basis of future bi-lateral cooperation between nations will be put at jeopardy.
I'll bet the British police would think twice, certainly about any joint venture with Portugal again.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: John on September 26, 2013, 11:30:59 AM
A point worth mentioning in the context of the opening post. Did you know that trial statements can be made public in England and Wales but not in Scotland. So much for equal rights under the Law within a so-called United Kingdom?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
A point worth mentioning in the context of the opening post. Did you know that trial statements can be made public in England and Wales but not in Scotland. So much for equal rights under the Law within a so-called United Kingdom?
Yes, there are several variations between Scottish and English law, another being that in Scotland, uncorroborated dog alerts are permitted as evidence.
There was work undertaken exclusively by Portuguese police or other Portuguese agents they could have released without objection on the British side: the Almeida Interim report (heaven help us); PJ police interviews; the PJ final report; the report of the Prosecutors and so on.
But in Britain, there are strict procedures and protocols for the release of information into the public domain and the English police wanted reassurance that, as a condition of their willingness to take part in a joint investigation, UK procedures and protocols would be strictly adhered to in release of the the UK side of the investigation into the public domain.
That was just trampled over rough-shod, especially in release of the rogatory interviews to Levy.
How on earth did that ever happen?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 05:48:48 PM
Is it the norm in Portugal for all files relating to a case to be released completely un-redacted on DVD in the way the McCann Files were released?
While thinking about this overnight I started to remember (and need help to get the details back) that this was treated as a special case in some ways.
I may be wrong, but isn't the norm for the files to be available for viewing by journalists and others with proper reason to request it, at the local court building but that release on DVD was exceptional. Wasn't there some worry that they would be unable to cope with demand and that was the reason for the exception to be made.
Also wasn't there some kind of restriction on quoting large amounts from the McCann File DVD? In which case surely Pamalam and potentially others could be sued by the Portuguese Authorities?
I have a feeling that it is the way in which an exception was made in this case which led to the anger from Kate at every "Tom, Dick and Harry" getting access.
I wonder, could someone with genuine knowledge of the normal system in Portugal comment on this? And could anyone point to any other case where the files have been released in this way on DVD for the journalists to take away?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Rachel Granada on September 26, 2013, 05:55:33 PM
I'd like to know why the PT authorities haven't taken action about the files being plastered all over the internet.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2013, 06:02:46 PM
'What about people - suspects, even - who attempted to use powers granted to them under the Hague convention to get police to reveal confidential information from police files to which they had absolutely no entitlement whatsoever? '
Now that is a good question. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Rachel Granada on September 26, 2013, 06:09:37 PM
'What about people - suspects, even - who attempted to use powers granted to them under the Hague convention to get police to reveal confidential information from police files to which they had absolutely no entitlement whatsoever? '
Now that is a good question. 8**8:/:
Where does that quote come from, Stephen?
And what about the loony stalkers who contacted witnesses - after getting their info from the released files. I understand that a Mr Edmonds and a Mr Naylor have been plagued by these deranged morons.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: DCI on September 26, 2013, 06:17:14 PM
'What about people - suspects, even - who attempted to use powers granted to them under the Hague convention to get police to reveal confidential information from police files to which they had absolutely no entitlement whatsoever? '
Now that is a good question. 8**8:/:
Ah yes but they got the files regarding other attacks reported to the police, and contact details, didn't they?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 26, 2013, 06:21:45 PM
If I were a Portuguese citizen I would not be impressed by the authorities not being concerned that people were being harassed simply because of something the Portuguese authorities had themselves done, no matter where those being harassed lived.
I would also like to know what you consider is a bigger priority than personal safety.
After all you said, yourself, yesterday I believe that you do not condone the release of personal information in this way.
Is it normal in Portugal or was this done only in this case? Are files normally sent out on DVD or only accessible by journalists and others with good reason at the court?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Rachel Granada on September 26, 2013, 06:59:01 PM
If I were a Portuguese citizen I would not be impressed by the authorities not being concerned that people were being harassed simply because of something the Portuguese authorities had themselves done, no matter where those being harassed lived.
I would also like to know what you consider is a bigger priority than personal safety.
After all you said, yourself, yesterday I believe that you do not condone the release of personal information in this way.
Is it normal in Portugal or was this done only in this case? Are files normally sent out on DVD or only accessible by journalists and others with good reason at the court?
Yes. Why should people who gave statements in good faith be stalked by Bennett and that cretin from Havern's who believes that the crèche records were forged?
David Payne has had his name dragged through the mud, but have we seen the English original of that particular statement?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 26, 2013, 07:04:09 PM
Yes, there are several variations between Scottish and English law, another being that in Scotland, uncorroborated dog alerts are permitted as evidence.
There was work undertaken exclusively by Portuguese police or other Portuguese agents they could have released without objection on the British side: the Almeida Interim report (heaven help us); PJ police interviews; the PJ final report; the report of the Prosecutors and so on.
But in Britain, there are strict procedures and protocols for the release of information into the public domain and the English police wanted reassurance that, as a condition of their willingness to take part in a joint investigation, UK procedures and protocols would be strictly adhered to in release of the the UK side of the investigation into the public domain.
That was just trampled over rough-shod, especially in release of the rogatory interviews to Levy.
How on earth did that ever happen?
The rogs didn't belong to the UK stricto senso. The LC only executed. This is one of the curious aspects of this case and you'll have noted that the deputy AG didn't allude to the absence of the rogs in the PJ files (nor of the Paynes' written interrogatory that was, though, a request of the PJ).
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
The rogs didn't belong to the UK stricto senso. The LC only executed. This is one of the curious aspects of this case and you'll have noted that the deputy AG didn't allude to the absence of the rogs in the PJ files (nor of the Paynes' written interrogatory that was, though, a request of the PJ).
How did the Rogatory Statements come to be released? Were they on the DVD or was some special arrangement made? Am I right in thinking Duarte Levy was involved in this as well as in the distribution of the DVD to people who had no legitimate (in PT Law terms) right to it?
I repeat my earlier question though, in case anyone on the Forum knows about Portuguese legal niceties. Is it normal for the "processo a partir" to be released in this way? Or am I right and there has only ever been this one case treated in this way in Portugal?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: DCI on September 26, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
How did the Rogatory Statements come to be released? Were they on the DVD or was some special arrangement made? Am I right in thinking Duarte Levy was involved in this as well as in the distribution of the DVD to people who had no legitimate (in PT Law terms) right to it?
I repeat my earlier question though, in case anyone on the Forum knows about Portuguese legal niceties. Is it normal for the "processo a partir" to be released in this way? Or am I right and there has only ever been this one case treated in this way in Portugal?
The rogs, I believe were done in April 2008, so they had 3 months to get them translated into Portuguese, before releasing them. They are on the DVD's.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 26, 2013, 07:22:30 PM
If I were a Portuguese citizen I would not be impressed by the authorities not being concerned that people were being harassed simply because of something the Portuguese authorities had themselves done, no matter where those being harassed lived.
I would also like to know what you consider is a bigger priority than personal safety.
After all you said, yourself, yesterday I believe that you do not condone the release of personal information in this way.
Is it normal in Portugal or was this done only in this case? Are files normally sent out on DVD or only accessible by journalists and others with good reason at the court?
Can you please not invent what I said or did not ? The DVD was a première. The MP previewed many journalists would be interested by them and that was a quick way to react to the situation. Unfortunately very few persons read the files and, as the court heard, even Mr Edgar didn't. Imo, after so many months of unacceptable UK articles about the PJ, the MP, the Ministery of Justice and the Portuguese, insults to which the authorities never responded (even when the ambassador was called "sardine muncher"), the release was also an attempt to allow those who were interested in the case to be able to judge by themselves what work had been done.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 26, 2013, 07:25:30 PM
The rogs, I believe were done in April 2008, so they had 3 months to get them translated into Portuguese, before releasing them. They are on the DVD's.
Not all.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 07:30:48 PM
Can you please not invent what I said or did not ? The DVD was a première. The MP previewed many journalists would be interested by them and that was a quick way to react to the situation. Unfortunately very few persons read the files and, as the court heard, even Mr Edgar didn't. Imo, after so many months of unacceptable UK articles about the PJ, the MP, the Ministery of Justice and the Portuguese, insults to which the authorities never responded (even when the ambassador was called "sardine muncher"), the release was also an attempt to allow those who were interested in the case to be able to judge by themselves what work had been done.
Please explain what you claim I invented.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 07:32:01 PM
The rogs, I believe were done in April 2008, so they had 3 months to get them translated into Portuguese, before releasing them. They are on the DVD's.
Thank you. But I am right in believing that Duarte Levy was instrumental in passing the DVD onto people with no legitimate right to have copies of it, I think.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Redblossom on September 26, 2013, 08:41:13 PM
C Unfortunately very few persons read the files and, as the court heard, even Mr Edgar didn't.
he said he had read parts of the files! why only parts? but also had some informat in the PJ? And there was not a shred of evidence the parents were involved, he admitted in that c4 documentary he was only working on n abduction theory, well, hello!? What else would a PI hired by parents work on LoooL
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 08:46:21 PM
he said he had read parts of the files! why only parts? but also had some informat in the PJ? And there was not a shred of evidence the parents were involved, he admitted in that c4 documentary he was only working on n abduction theory, well, hello!? What else would a PI hired by parents work on LoooL
He was absolutely correct that there is not a shred of evidence the parents were involved.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: DCI on September 26, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
The difference is not that our criminal system is in general secret but that only evidence which is actually pertinent to the case/trial is disclosed.
All evidence given in court is available in full transcript format after the trial. That is hardly secret courts. It is perfectly transparent.
I have asked is that available in Portugal but no-one seems to be able to answer. Perhaps you could.
I doubt it was the concept of transparency that worried them, they are used to that.
It was the fact that every tiny detail such as people's phone numbers were revealed. That is considered totally unacceptable here and I am personally shocked that the PT authorities do not understand how intimidating it could be to witnesses to know that the people they are giving evidence against can have their phone numbers and addresses and passport numbers etc. Actually I think it is scandalous and utterly stupid in this era of online fraud.
Do you really endorse the revealing of all that personal information about potentially vulnerable people and think it improves society?
I do wonder ....If (hopefully) the abductor is finally caught, how will the fact that all and sundry has had access to the Case Files affect any future prosecution?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Redblossom on September 26, 2013, 09:07:30 PM
I do wonder ....If (hopefully) the abductor is finally caught, how will the fact that all and sundry has had access to the Case Files affect any future prosecution?
Explain how then
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: LagosBen on September 26, 2013, 09:28:06 PM
No DCI! Anne was referring to the fact that not all rogatory interviews were in the released police files!!!
many were missing...all the T7 are there though
The T7 rogs aren't in the files, only their existence is mentioned. The two Paynes' written answers aren't in the files, only their existence is mentioned.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Redblossom on September 26, 2013, 09:35:16 PM
So sorry, I thought you might be able to think it through for yourself.
The Lawyer would be all over the fact that the Files had been viewed by many. Witness Statements have been seen by many. Accusations flying everywhere. Policemen making Public statements and writing books. TV appearance by many involved, the family, the police etc. etc. He'd possibly claim that the abductor could never receive a fair Trial.......starting to get it now are you?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 10:52:02 PM
he MAY be correct, but on what basis did he make that judgement? When he admitted he has only read certain parts of the files @)(++(*
bit like Redwood hey? half way through the files and alledgedly stating it WAS a stranger abduction
btw the case was archived..for lack of evidence, lack of evidence NEVER means innocence of any party....let alone the fantastical CLEARED
The summary of the FILES is very clear that there is not a shred of evidence that the McCanns committed any crime.
Summaries and conclusions are there for a purpose.
The case was archived according to a poster here who has more knowledge of that Portuguese system than you for a reason other than which you proffer. I suggest you read your own anti colleague's posts to discover what the real reason was.
I will give you a clue. Cases in Portugal are by law time-limited.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 10:55:08 PM
Having posted today that Redwood never mentioned stranger abduction and actually pointed to the section on video where he can clearly be seen mentioning stranger abduction I think Redblossom answered the question earlier. @)(++(*
Fewer more dense posts can have hastily been deleted by mods at the behest of the poster than that one.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Lyall on September 26, 2013, 10:57:05 PM
Gilet, what Redwood said is completely irrelevant in Lisbon, unless he is appearing as a witness. Is he?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 10:57:38 PM
Yes that would be the second best outcome -Obviously finding Madeleine and who took her would be the best outcome.
Correct. I find it appalling that anti McCanns always forget the real issue here is a missing child and there is no proof whatsoever that she is dead. That would be the best way to re-open the case for Madeleine to be found.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Just for the record I agree 100% with Kate McCann on this issue.
It is disgraceful, in my opinion that the files of this case were released in the way they were and that illegally, they have been published in the way they have been.
Such a release will most certainly have deterred (and will in the future deter) others from volunteering information to the PJ.
In Portugal every criminal or civil process is public, by law, once the investigation is completed or archived. Unlike we have been accused of, Portugal is a democratic country and it doesn't keep secret judicial cases. If I recall well, it was the McCann that complained about the secrecy of justice, so why are they complaining now that everybody has access to the process?!
Maybe they wished to be the only ones to have access to it in order to distort and sell to the newspapers whatever served them the best.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 10:59:34 PM
Gilet, what Redwood said is completely irrelevant in Lisbon, unless he is appearing as a witness. Is he?
It is irrelevant to the case in Lisbon yes. But it was entirely relevant to the thread which redblossom started as it was in fact the OP of that thread and the entire focus of that thread. It demonstrated that she simply did not even bother to listen to the video which she brought here and asked us to comment on.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Lyall on September 26, 2013, 11:03:04 PM
It is irrelevant to the case in Lisbon yes. But it was entirely relevant to the thread which redblossom started as it was in fact the OP of that thread and the entire focus of that thread. It demonstrated that she simply did not even bother to listen to the video which she brought here and asked us to comment on.
Ok, fair enough. I must admit I haven't watched the video either (or not for a long time anyway). 8()-000(
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:07:00 PM
In Portugal every criminal or civil process is public, by law, once the investigation is completed or archived. Unlike we have been accused of, Portugal is a democratic country and it doesn't keep secret judicial cases. If I recall, it was the McCann that complained about the secrecy of justice, so why are they complaining now that everybody has access to the process?!
I understand that. But this case was treated as a unique case. When all other cases are archived or completed the case becomes public by allowing journalists and other people with permission to access the files in a central place. The complete un-redacted files are not normally released on DVD with personal information such as names, addresses, ages, names of children, phone numbers etc and then with the encouragement of "journalists"like Duarte Levy placed in their entirety on the Internet.
Do you believe that this case is typical of the Portuguese system? Do you acknowledge that no other case has ever been dealt with in this way?
And most importantly do you honestly believe that witnesses who have committed no crime, never been accused of any crime such as the many dozens of witnesses who simply gave statemtents as holidaymakers in your country should have had their personal details splashed across the Internet? Why have the Portuguese Authorities not dealt with the individuals illegally doing this with the information they released.
And finally do you personally condone this exposure of these personal details of people unconnected to the case other than by chance that they were in PDL that week.
I think that is disgusting. And I am disgusted that the Portuguese Authorities have condoned it.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:07:48 PM
The disclosure of police and court files is normal in Portugal and is done in the name transparency. It is important that everyone knows what the courts decide or what the police do. Perhaps you might think that it is normal to have secret courts in Britain but that idea does not exist here. And it certainly does not put off people from cooperating and volunteering information. Just because our system is different from the British does not make it worse. I'm sorry that the concept of transparency bothered Kate and Gerry.
They would rather keep on lying. Bad luck for them that everything was revealed.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:11:50 PM
Correct. I find it appalling that anti McCanns always forget the real issue here is a missing child and there is no proof whatsoever that she is dead. That would be the best way to re-open the case for Madeleine to be found.
Nope. It's you that keep forgetting that there was a little child that vanished.
Instead of trying to find out what happened to her you waste all your energies in attacking the PJ, Amaral, the portuguese, inflating the McCann parents as if they have never been close to that child or responsible for her. Shame on you.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:14:21 PM
They would rather keep on lying. Bad luck for them that everything was revealed.
That is a gross distortion of what posters here have said.
From that post I presume you condone what I asked about in my previous post.
The release of extremely personal information (with all the security and fraud risks that entails) of children and adults alike as was uniquely done in a wholly uncontrolled way in this case by the Portuguese Authorities is not something I would ever agree with.
I have no criticism whatsoever of the way in which all other cases in Portugal are made public.
It is only this case that was dealt with in this disgraceful way. And the Portuguese Authorities have not once attempted to control the illegal distribution of the information they released.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:16:04 PM
Once again, if the McCann parents had wished to have the portuguese investigation open they had 20 days to do it without any trouble other than stating so. Even now they have a possibility to re-open that if they volunteer to do a reconstitution.
Why don't they do it?
I tell you: because they never wanted the investigation to reach an end.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:17:39 PM
Nope. It's you that keep forgetting that there was a little child that vanished.
Instead of trying to find out what happened to her you waste all your energies in attacking the PJ, Amaral, the portuguese, inflating the McCann parents as if they have never been close to that child or responsible for her. Shame on you.
You have twisted that completely to serve your defence of the disgraced ex-cop, Amaral.
What any sentient poster can see I am doing here is defending the child against the attacks from people like Amaral and those like you who peddle his lies about the child.
For example it simply is not true as Amaral claims in his book that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead.
I defend her against lies such as that. You peddle the same lies as that disgraced ex-cop.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:18:52 PM
That is a gross distortion of what posters here have said.
From that post I presume you condone what I asked about in my previous post.
The release of extremely personal information (with all the security and fraud risks that entails) of children and adults alike as was uniquely done in a wholly uncontrolled way in this case by the Portuguese Authorities is not something I would ever agree with.
I have no criticism whatsoever of the way in which all other cases in Portugal are made public.
It is only this case that was dealt with in this disgraceful way. And the Portuguese Authorities have not once attempted to control the illegal distribution of the information they released.
No personal information was released, it wasn't even approved to be investigated, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:21:04 PM
Once again, if the McCann parents had wished to have the portuguese investigation open they had 29 days to do it without any trouble other than stating so. Even now they have a possibility to re-open that if they volunteer to do a reconstitution.
Why don't they do it?
I tell you: because they never wanted the investigation to reach an end.
Simple.
They were given an impossible time scale. 20 days to sift through the tens of thousands of pages in a foreign language to determine a basis for appealing the archival (which in itself was due to time constraints not genuine policing reasons).
And if you do not understand that a much more valuable IT reconstruction has already almost certainly been done as part of the review/inquiry then I am sorry but it is the kind of work our police do regularly.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
You have twisted that completely to serve your defence of the disgraced ex-cop, Amaral.
What any sentient poster can see I am doing here is defending the child against the attacks from people like Amaral and those like you who peddle his lies about the child.
For example it simply is not true as Amaral claims in his book that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead.
I defend her against lies such as that. You peddle the same lies as that disgraced ex-cop.
I am not defending anyone, it's you that blindly appear to be defending the McCann parents. I defend the right for a small child to be found and to have justice.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:23:15 PM
No personal information was released, it wasn't even approved to be investigated, unfortunately.
That is possibly the most ridiculous comment you or any other anti-McCann has ever posted on this forum.
Thousands of personal details were released on DVD including personal phone numbers, places of work, ages, dates of birth, passport numbers, photographs, addresses (relating to children and adults alike).
I can think of no reason other than an attempt to hide the truth that you would post such absolute nonsense.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:26:04 PM
I am not defending anyone, it's you that blindly appear to be defending the McCann parents. I defend the right for a small child to be found and to have justice.
There is nothing blind about my defence of the McCanns from the attacks made on them.
Firstly I am very aware of the fact that the McCanns are entirely without guilt in any crime, that there is no evidence of any crime by them, and that they are the parents of a missing little girl.
Every post I make is carefully considered and where necessary uses evidence to back up any claims I make in their favour.
You are defending nothing but the right of Amaral to lie about Madeleine McCann when he says that she is definitely dead. For him to put that in a book from which he wished to make profit when he knows there is no proof of it is simply horrendous.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: Luz on September 26, 2013, 11:27:50 PM
That is possibly the most ridiculous comment you or any other anti-McCann has ever posted on this forum.
Thousands of personal details were released on DVD including personal phone numbers, places of work, ages, dates of birth, passport numbers, photographs, addresses (relating to children and adults alike).
I can think of no reason other than an attempt to hide the truth that you would post such absolute nonsense.
Don't keep making a fool of yourself. You are obviously not informed and are simply reacting on hearsay. I feel for you.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: C.Edwards on September 26, 2013, 11:34:20 PM
That is a gross distortion of what posters here have said.
From that post I presume you condone what I asked about in my previous post.
The release of extremely personal information (with all the security and fraud risks that entails) of children and adults alike as was uniquely done in a wholly uncontrolled way in this case by the Portuguese Authorities is not something I would ever agree with.
I have no criticism whatsoever of the way in which all other cases in Portugal are made public.
It is only this case that was dealt with in this disgraceful way. And the Portuguese Authorities have not once attempted to control the illegal distribution of the information they released.
FWIW I wholeheartedly oppose any private information being released in the files. That includes the phone numbers in the call records and names beyond those known to have been in the main party. I don't see why full names should have been released at all and should have been restricted to initials or pseudonyms at the very least.
However, I don't see a problem with the general (obfuscated) information being released at all and neither should the McCanns if, as they claim, they had nothing to hide. Their apparent desire to control the media/information flow is very strange to me.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:41:04 PM
Don't keep making a fool of yourself. You are obviously not informed and are simply reacting on hearsay. I feel for you.
Are you seriously continuing this ludicrous point. This is not Hearsay. I received a copy of the DVD directly from a journalist in your country. Unlike others I have never used the personal information on that DVD. Indeed I returned that copy of the DVD to the PJ themselves.
You are posting total nonsense.
There was no redaction of anyone's photo, phone number, addresses, ages, and other personal information, whether a child or adult.
The proof of the effect of the release of personal information is in this post from Bennett.
I have obtained your name and details simply by examining many of the thousands of documents about the case released by the Portuguese Police and made public during 2008, which include lists of guests staying at the Ocean Club and/or with Mark Warners during the week the McCanns were there, 28 April to 5 May 2007. There is also amongst the documents released by the police a statement by a Stephen C*****, who now lives in *******, who says that he spoke to a man who had taken three young boys with him on the evening Madeleine disappeared, and by a process of elimination we believe that must be you, as you are the only guest with three boys recorded as being present that week.
FWIW I wholeheartedly oppose any private information being released in the files. That includes the phone numbers in the call records and names beyond those known to have been in the main party. I don't see why full names should have been released at all and should have been restricted to initials or pseudonyms at the very least.
However, I don't see a problem with the general (obfuscated) information being released at all and neither should the McCanns if, as they claim, they had nothing to hide. Their apparent desire to control the media/information flow is very strange to me.
For me it is not strange at all, it has been their way of making money for the last years.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:46:20 PM
FWIW I wholeheartedly oppose any private information being released in the files. That includes the phone numbers in the call records and names beyond those known to have been in the main party. I don't see why full names should have been released at all and should have been restricted to initials or pseudonyms at the very least.
However, I don't see a problem with the general (obfuscated) information being released at all and neither should the McCanns if, as they claim, they had nothing to hide. Their apparent desire to control the media/information flow is very strange to me.
Nor do I and nor do the McCanns believe that was unacceptable. That is the normal way things are done in Portugal.
This is the exception. The only instance the information has been released in this way in Portugal, allowing journalists and others to take away DVDs of unredacted information and to distribute them to absolutely anyone, criminal or otherwise.
This is what I object to. This is what the McCanns object to. The availability of such personal detail to every "Tom, Dick or Harry."
And like all decent people I am glad you can see the same.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 26, 2013, 11:47:47 PM
For me it is not strange at all, it has been their way of making money for the last years.
Making snide digs does not explain why you have been posting such nonsense about the personal details in the files.
Any comment on that now that I have shown you to be utterly wrong in your claim that no personal information was released by the Portuguese Authorities?
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2013, 11:58:38 PM
Nor do I and nor do the McCanns believe that was unacceptable. That is the normal way things are done in Portugal.
This is the exception. The only instance the information has been released in this way in Portugal, allowing journalists and others to take away DVDs of unredacted information and to distribute them to absolutely anyone, criminal or otherwise.
This is what I object to. This is what the McCanns object to. The availability of such personal detail to every "Tom, Dick or Harry."
And like all decent people I am glad you can see the same.
You seem to know rather a lot about how the McCanns think and feel.
Seems that the only individuals supporting them now are close family and friends.
Title: Re: Is the realease of police files a good thing?
Post by: gilet on September 27, 2013, 12:14:48 AM
You seem to know rather a lot about how the McCanns think and feel.
Seems that the only individuals supporting them now are close family and friends.
Not at all.
In posting this personal attack on me and this off topic comment about McCann support do you not have any comment to make about the topic of the thread?
Do you condone what the Portuguese Authorities did?
I see Luz has not yet apologised for that grossly untrue comment about personal information.