Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: CPN on October 15, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
Title: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: CPN on October 15, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
There is a programme on Madeleine on Sky news tonight in ten minutes - called: "The New Investigation"
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 08:43:29 PM
It's asking some unhelpful questions. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Montclair on October 15, 2013, 08:45:16 PM
Just finished. The point was made that the Smith sighting e-fits have been around for years, and incredulity was expressed about how the 9.15 sighting can suddenly be dropped and replaced by one that was ignored for years.
I'll have to watch it again (I'd be a terrible witness. No memory 8)-))))
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 09:02:38 PM
Williams-Thomas hinted at who one of the Smiths indicated the man he saw might be (but didn't name the name)
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cariad on October 15, 2013, 09:11:16 PM
Thank you CPN, I managed to catch it.
For those who didn't see it, it was mentioned that the Portuguese police thought they might have known who Smithman was, but they never came out and said it was GM!
I was on the edge of my seat! I kept thinking 'they're going to say it any minute now!' . An ex detective made the point about the unlikelihood of planning an abduction that involved walking around town with your victim for ten minutes.
I didn't V+ it unfortunatly, so can't confirm any details :-(
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 09:11:47 PM
Hames and Williams-Thomas questioned the wisdom of issuing so many e-fits and/or sketches at the same time, as it may dilute the impact.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 09:19:01 PM
Is there any explanation as to why the CCTV which was apparently available was not immediately looked at by Amaral's team?
Was that a damming mistake by the PJ or is there a good reason it was not done?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Montclair on October 15, 2013, 09:22:52 PM
Hames and Williams-Thomas questioned the wisdom of issuing so many e-fits and/or sketches at the same time, as it may dilute the impact.
More accurately...
MWT said it is difficult for people to focus on 5 e-fits and they need to be in context and perhaps its best not to realease them all together.
Hames did not question the decision but explained that the reason was probably that the Operation Grange team would probably not have the chance to appeal to so many people at once in the future.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 09:27:47 PM
Just finished. The point was made that the Smith sighting e-fits have been around for years, and incredulity was expressed about how the 9.15 sighting can suddenly be dropped and replaced by one that was ignored for years.
I'll have to watch it again (I'd be a terrible witness. No memory 8)-))))
Easy to answer why the 9.15 sighting can only now be dropped. Because back in 2007 nobody bothered to interview the likely people and now they have been interviewed it is known by the police who that person was and he is not a suspect.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 09:29:13 PM
What CCTV? In Portugal CCTV in the streets is illegal because of privacy laws.
What CCTV? The one that Goncalo Amaral spouts about to the Daily Express
Quote
He walked a few steps and looked up at a CCTV camera and sighed loudly. The camera belongs to the Estrela da Luz resort hotel. “I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,” he said.
“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. It was a mistake and I will always regret it. I do feel Madeleine was let down.”
Yes the one that was wiped and it was a mistake and he felt Madeleine had been let down... Let Down? Most definitely.
How long does it take PJ to get to a building 210 metres away from a child disappearance to ask about CCTV? The camera is on a big high pole right by the gate of the hotel complex.
A kid of ten could spot it and know what it was never mind a seasoned cop.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: jassi on October 15, 2013, 09:42:08 PM
And it was very clear on the video that the commentator was appalled that such video had not been immediately looked at by the PJ.
So this is the investigation That amaral claimed was not going well for the McCanns . What we are learning... I think we already knew..is what a complete mess the pj made of the whole thing
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 15, 2013, 09:43:18 PM
Is there any indication where the cameras were pointing?
We might know the answer to that if the PJ had done a proper job and got the CCTV recordings which were just 210 metres away from the disappearance. As it is they only got round to bothering when it was much too late. And we have Amaral to thank for that information.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: jassi on October 15, 2013, 09:48:40 PM
The CCTV recording was wiped out and it was not supposed to be directed at the street.
We know the recording was wiped. Amaral tells us that. He also tells us that his officers got there too late to retrieve what had been recorded but does not explain why it took so long to get the most obvious evidence when it was only 210 metres away.
Please provide some back-up for your claim that it was not supposed to be directed at the street. It is not possible to determine this simply by looking at the image. The camera is positioned high right by the entrance to the hotel complex from the street. At the very, very least it may have presented us with a very accurate timing of the return to the complex by the family who gave witness statements.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 15, 2013, 09:54:07 PM
Criminals need far less luck when the police who are tasked with keeping people safe botch the job as Amaral and his team so obviously did.
If there had been a more effective police investigation then it is perfectly possible that this case might have been solved.
Accessing this CCTV for a start might have been a massive boost as would interviewing the eight people who were the most likely candidates for the Tanner sighting.
Neither task was accomplished by Amaral and crew though.
Yes, you are right. The abductor was lucky that the police were so incompetent. Perhaps he already knew of this and chose the area for his actions on that basis?
yes makes a lot of sense..if you are going to commit a crime choose a place with a crap police force
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 09:55:13 PM
Amaral is the one who told us about the utter failure of his officers to do this most simple of police tasks.
I am very disappointed that you and Montclair seem not to have been aware of this awful cock-up on the part of Amaral's team.
By the way are you trying to have a dig by calling my very reasonable question, impertinent? Why is it impertinent in your view to question something even Amaral admits was an atrocious failure on the part of his team?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 09:57:49 PM
Sky did a follow up programme this evening to the Crimewatch programme. One of the points they raised which is currently being discussed here was the failure of the PJ to retrieve the CCTV coverage at the holiday complex the witnesses who provided last night's e-fits were staying at.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 15, 2013, 10:01:09 PM
Sky did a follow up programme this evening to the Crimewatch programme. One of the points they raised which is currently being discussed here was the failure of the PJ to retrieve the CCTV coverage at the holiday complex the witnesses who provided last night's e-fits were staying at.
Do you know for a fact when the PJ first heard about the smiths sighting....it was not for a couple weeks or so wasnt it?in all likelihood the tapes will have been rerecorded over by then, perhaps they concentrated first on any cctv around TANERS sighting / direction
This is not fbi/csi / criminal minds where all info is avaiable at the flick of a computer switch! Real life is different in some countries
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 15, 2013, 10:02:05 PM
Amaral is the one who told us about the utter failure of his officers to do this most simple of police tasks.
I am very disappointed that you and Montclair seem not to have been aware of this awful cock-up on the part of Amaral's team.
Every country who once experimented dictatorship, once liberated, makes very sure that private life is respected. This is why, in Portugal, the MP must ask a court to grant access to sms which, in the McCann case, was refused. This is why no CCTV can be directed to the via publica. This is also why tourists come here. It's not only because of the sun and the cheap services.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cudge on October 15, 2013, 10:02:42 PM
Every country who once experimented dictatorship, once liberated, makes very sure that private life is respected. This is why, in Portugal, the MP must ask a court to grant access to sms which, in the McCann case, was refused. This is why no CCTV can be directed to the via publica. This is also why tourists come here. It's not only because of the sun and the cheap services.
Sounds like you are back pedalling furiously....why did amaral say he wished he had checked it then
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Kazcutt on October 15, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
Every country who once experimented dictatorship, once liberated, makes very sure that private life is respected. This is why, in Portugal, the MP must ask a court to grant access to sms which, in the McCann case, was refused. This is why no CCTV can be directed to the via publica. This is also why tourists come here. It's not only because of the sun and the cheap services.
I don't really care about the politics of Portugal. My concern is that the PJ failed to even bother to retrieve the footage which at the very least could have given an accurate time of the return of the family and may have helped in some small way to solve the case of this missing little girl.
The fact is that this camera is right by the public highway and may have held clues in the case and the PJ failed as Amaral tells us to retrieve that vital footage. A total cock-up not just in my opinion but in the opinion of the co-ordinator of the investigation.
There is no point trying to defend this with political slogans.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cudge on October 15, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
Every country who once experimented dictatorship, once liberated, makes very sure that private life is respected. This is why, in Portugal, the MP must ask a court to grant access to sms which, in the McCann case, was refused. This is why no CCTV can be directed to the via publica. This is also why tourists come here. It's not only because of the sun and the cheap services.
Tourists go to the Algarve because their SMS's remain private and CCTV's may not be directed at them ? Sounds more like an invitation to criminals
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 10:09:54 PM
Sky did a follow up programme this evening to the Crimewatch programme. One of the points they raised which is currently being discussed here was the failure of the PJ to retrieve the CCTV coverage at the holiday complex the witnesses who provided last night's e-fits were staying at.
thanks gilet... in the early days I was always suspicious about the cctv or the lack of any working ..was it just a coincidence all the cctv's were broken ?? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Kazcutt on October 15, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
Criminals need far less luck when the police who are tasked with keeping people safe botch the job as Amaral and his team so obviously did.
If there had been a more effective police investigation then it is perfectly possible that this case might have been solved.
Accessing this CCTV for a start might have been a massive boost as would interviewing the eight people who were the most likely candidates for the Tanner sighting.
Neither task was accomplished by Amaral and crew though.
Yes, you are right. The abductor was lucky that the police were so incompetent. Perhaps he already knew of this and chose the area for his actions on that basis?
Now that you've pointed this out it makes perfect sense! The guy knew Dr Amaral would be put on the case, knew his reputation as a boozy bumbling cop and realised he wouldn't need to do any planning for this pre planned abduction!
Hence the hour in the apartment, the wandering around town with a kidnapped child who could've screamed blue murder at any point and no car!
It's like a revelation!
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 15, 2013, 10:14:35 PM
Now that you've pointed this out it makes perfect sense! The guy knew Dr Amaral would be put on the case, knew his reputation as a boozy bumbling cop and realised he wouldn't need to do any planning for this pre planned abduction!
Hence the hour in the apartment, the wandering around town with a kidnapped child who could've screamed blue murder at any point and no car!
It's like a revelation!
LMAO
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 15, 2013, 10:15:14 PM
thanks gilet... in the early days I was always suspicious about the cctv or the lack of any working ..was it just a coincidence all the cctv's were broken ?? >@@(*&)
Were they? Wonder where you read that
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benita on October 15, 2013, 10:18:14 PM
there was one cctv from a petrol station I remember but it was poor quality where a girl was seen in a car with 3 men and a woman..don't know if anyone remembers it...
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 15, 2013, 10:18:24 PM
Now that you've pointed this out it makes perfect sense! The guy knew Dr Amaral would be put on the case, knew his reputation as a boozy bumbling cop and realised he wouldn't need to do any planning for this pre planned abduction!
Hence the hour in the apartment, the wandering around town with a kidnapped child who could've screamed blue murder at any point and no car!
It's like a revelation!
I think we are talking about Portuguese police in general as they all agreed with amaral...plus the fact that they have to spend so much time away from work answerrring criminal charges. do you realise how many involved in the case have been convicted or are awaiting trial. as I understand amaral has another case going back 10 years where he has been accused of beating up a prisoner
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: BigFatBlonde on October 15, 2013, 10:18:29 PM
We don't even know if the cameras were switched on, whether or not they could record at night, where they were pointed or what the legal process is Portugal for viewing it.
FYI in the UK if you have a private CCTV system you do not have to show it to the police on request. You can refuse and insist they get a warrant.
I would want to know the legal process required before condemning anyone.
N
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 15, 2013, 10:19:46 PM
We don't even know if the cameras were switched on, whether or not they could record at night, where they were pointed or what the legal process is Portugal for viewing it.
FYI in the UK if you have a private CCTV system you do not have to show it to the police on request. You can refuse and insist they get a warrant.
I would want to know the legal process required before condemning anyone.
N
The CCTV are limited to private use. For example, if you live in a propriety complex you have a CCTV for security reasons. You can also have a camera filming whoever enters in your building (I have one of these, it is always off, I hate viewing somebody who can't see me), but it only catches people who are ringing the bell, not the street.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 15, 2013, 10:28:31 PM
there was one cctv from a petrol station I remember but it was poor quality where a girl was seen in a car with 3 men and a woman..don't know if anyone remembers it...
Well they cant all have been broken then.....
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 10:31:19 PM
Mr Amaral on ITV News soon looks like 8(>((
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Kazcutt on October 15, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
On 9 May, the 24 Horas newspaper reported that police had found a vehicle near Praia da Luz that may have been used by the kidnapper.[15] Further, CCTV video from a petrol station near Lagos showed a child matching Madeleine's description with a woman and two men. The child was having an altercation with the woman.[15] The following day it was reported that the car from the petrol station had British number plates and it was claimed that the person caught taking photographs was one of the men on the CCTV footage.[13][16]
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: xtina on October 15, 2013, 10:33:36 PM
goncalo amaral on itv news ....on what he thinks to new investigation ..in a couple of mins
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benita on October 15, 2013, 10:34:17 PM
I think we are talking about Portuguese police in general as they all agreed with amaral...plus the fact that they have to spend so much time away from work answerrring criminal charges. do you realise how many involved in the case have been convicted or are awaiting trial. as I understand amaral has another case going back 10 years where he has been accused of beating up a prisoner
Even if the Portuguese police are the worlds crappiest police force ever in the history of the entire world, even if each and every one of them belongs in a Monty python sketch, this crime doesn't bear the hallmarks of a planned abduction!
davel, it just doesn't make sense! why no car? why hang around for an hour? why didn't Madeleine (if it was her with Smithman) scream at any point in the ten minute walk?
I can not accept that a planned abduction would look like that. At the very, very least I would expect transport.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benita on October 15, 2013, 10:36:38 PM
Even if the Portuguese police are the worlds crappiest police force ever in the history of the entire world, even if each and every one of them belongs in a Monty python sketch, this crime doesn't bear the hallmarks of a planned abduction!
davel, it just doesn't make sense! why no car? why hang around for an hour? why didn't Madeleine (if it was her with Smithman) scream at any point in the ten minute walk?
I can not accept that a planned abduction would look like that. At the very, very least I would expect transport.
And why head towards the beach? Was he expecting a submarine?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benita on October 15, 2013, 10:38:42 PM
On 9 May, the 24 Horas newspaper reported that police had found a vehicle near Praia da Luz that may have been used by the kidnapper.[15] Further, CCTV video from a petrol station near Lagos showed a child matching Madeleine's description with a woman and two men. The child was having an altercation with the woman.[15] The following day it was reported that the car from the petrol station had British number plates and it was claimed that the person caught taking photographs was one of the men on the CCTV footage.[13][16]
that's the one kazcutt I wonder if sy have looked into that..it was very convincing at the time..
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: sadie on October 15, 2013, 10:50:24 PM
Not to mention the criminal genius behind this well planned abduction! Gosh, luck was really on his side that night. He hung around the apartment for the best part of an hour without getting spotted during the checking system, forgot his car, wandered around the town for ten minutes without Madeleine waking and walked under a CCTV camera which was wiped before the film was retrieved.
Oh, and he still hasn't been caught!
Platignum medal fpr sarcasm and sheer unadulterated nastiness . And all make believe.
You should work with two well known ex PT cops. Would make a good team.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 10:50:49 PM
We don't even know if the cameras were switched on, whether or not they could record at night, where they were pointed or what the legal process is Portugal for viewing it.
FYI in the UK if you have a private CCTV system you do not have to show it to the police on request. You can refuse and insist they get a warrant.
I would want to know the legal process required before condemning anyone.
N
I didn't start the condemnation of the PJ over this CCTV.
First Amaral did in 2010 and then this Sky programme did tonight.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 10:52:24 PM
Platignum medal fpr sarcasm and sheer unadulterated nastiness . And all make believe.
You should work with two well known ex PT cops. Would make a good team.
Are we just meant to ignore the moving doors, opened windows, unexplained hour between moving doors and sighting ten minutes away and no transport in this 'planned abduction'?
Sarcasm yes, unadulterated incredulity at what I'm now meant to believe? yep.
Nastiness? what, for pointing out the large grey pachyderm in the room?
Sadie, yesterday you decided that SY had messed up and claimed that you'd given them more info than they showed last night, then today you invent a ridiculous round-about route to be able to fit it all together again.
You can convince yourself of anything you like, but don't expect everyone else to tow the party line of 'what we say goes'.
A planned abduction in these circumstances is not believable.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 11:05:28 PM
Probably the wind coming through the small gap in the patio door they left open
That could be one new theory Red. Another is that Madeleine woke up and moved the door, but I'm sure that's not a suggestion people want to me (if she woke up she may have left the apartment as well?)
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cariad on October 15, 2013, 11:05:45 PM
Are we just meant to ignore the moving doors, opened windows, unexplained hour between moving doors and sighting ten minutes away and no transport in this 'planned abduction'?
Sarcasm yes, unadulterated incredulity at what I'm now meant to believe? yep.
Nastiness? what, for pointing out the large grey pachyderm in the room?
Sadie, yesterday you decided that SY had messed up and claimed that you'd given them more info than they showed last night, then today you invent a ridiculous round-about route to be able to fit it all together again.
You can convince yourself of anything you like, but don't expect everyone else to tow the party line of 'what we say goes'.
A planned abduction in these circumstances is not believable.
Is there a reason why YOU are trying to hide it?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 15, 2013, 11:08:33 PM
That could be one new theory Red. Another is that Madeleine woke up and moved the door, but I'm sure that's not a suggestion people want to me (if she woke up she may have left the apartment as well?)
Yes that too
@ cariad, had to look up pachyderm @)(++(*
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 15, 2013, 11:09:48 PM
Are we just meant to ignore the moving doors, opened windows, unexplained hour between moving doors and sighting ten minutes away and no transport in this 'planned abduction'?
Sarcasm yes, unadulterated incredulity at what I'm now meant to believe? yep.
Nastiness? what, for pointing out the large grey pachyderm in the room?
Sadie, yesterday you decided that SY had messed up and claimed that you'd given them more info than they showed last night, then today you invent a ridiculous round-about route to be able to fit it all together again.
You can convince yourself of anything you like, but don't expect everyone else to tow the party line of 'what we say goes'.
A planned abduction in these circumstances is not believable.
This part of the abduction to me is just a mental exercise. If I mess up then I admit it and apologise.
Something NONE of you are able to do.
My real interest lies in what happened after the abduction. Where was Madeleine taken? Where was she kept? Where is she now? Who is responsible? Is this person part of a trafficking group etc
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cariad on October 15, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
Even if the Portuguese police are the worlds crappiest police force ever in the history of the entire world, even if each and every one of them belongs in a Monty python sketch, this crime doesn't bear the hallmarks of a planned abduction!
davel, it just doesn't make sense! why no car? why hang around for an hour? why didn't Madeleine (if it was her with Smithman) scream at any point in the ten minute walk?
I can not accept that a planned abduction would look like that. At the very, very least I would expect transport.
This has been my view for some time, Cariad. The lack of a car in particular puzzles me. Why no quick getaway when one could be on the main road and accross the Spanish border in two hours? Why expose the crime by parading around the town? Either this thing was planned by idiots, or something went very badly wrong.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: sadie on October 15, 2013, 11:30:37 PM
This has been my view for some time, Cariad. The lack of a car in particular puzzles me. Why no quick getaway when one could be on the main road and accross the Spanish border in two hours? Why expose the crime by parading around the town? Either this thing was planned by idiots, or something went very badly wrong.
time to reread sadies teory Sherlock 8(0(*
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cariad on October 15, 2013, 11:31:39 PM
This has been my view for some time, Cariad. The lack of a car in particular puzzles me. Why no quick getaway when one could be on the main road and accross the Spanish border in two hours? Why expose the crime by parading around the town? Either this thing was planned by idiots, or something went very badly wrong.
I'm going with C, It wasn't planned at all.
Idiots tend not to get away with the worlds most famous abduction and something going very badly wrong might explain a car breaking down, or somehow getting stuck in the apartment for an hour, or choosing the route to the beach..... no sorry, I think that was a slap stick crime caper I saw once...
I sticking with C.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 11:54:12 PM
Are we just meant to ignore the moving doors, opened windows, unexplained hour between moving doors and sighting ten minutes away and no transport in this 'planned abduction'?
Sarcasm yes, unadulterated incredulity at what I'm now meant to believe? yep.
Nastiness? what, for pointing out the large grey pachyderm in the room?
Sadie, yesterday you decided that SY had messed up and claimed that you'd given them more info than they showed last night, then today you invent a ridiculous round-about route to be able to fit it all together again.
You can convince yourself of anything you like, but don't expect everyone else to tow the party line of 'what we say goes'.
A planned abduction in these circumstances is not believable.
You seem to be missing the rather important fact that planned abduction is only one of the scenarios which people far more aware of all the available evidence than you are pursuing.
Who do you really think we should believe as to what is possible and what is not. An internet expert like you or a real expert like DCI Redwood?
I know who I prefer to take heed of.
There are problems with all potential scenarios, there are always things which do not tally. But that does not make a particular scenario impossible. There may be explanations. That is why good police forces investigate ALL possible scenarios thoroughly and do not simply exclude anything when something does not fit perfectly.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 15, 2013, 11:55:16 PM
Idiots tend not to get away with the worlds most famous abduction and something going very badly wrong might explain a car breaking down, or somehow getting stuck in the apartment for an hour, or choosing the route to the beach..... no sorry, I think that was a slap stick crime caper I saw once...
I sticking with C.
Your attempt to find humour in the case of a missing little girl is rather sickening.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 15, 2013, 11:57:33 PM
Going back to the OP heres the sky report, the beginning has been cut off
Transcript from beginning of report until start of the video
Now on sky news a special report to look at the latest attempts to discover who abducted madeleine mccann Jason farrel reports When madeleine vanished in may 2007 she became perhaps the most famous missing girl in the world Now new information released by uk police has been described as of vital importance to the case After more an six yearanof theories accusations and dead end lead is the investigation into madeleines mccanns disappearance finally on track?
Look into my eyes the posters asked but for all the the twistsand turns in the story when it came to appeals for info there has only been one face, but this week a selection of other potential characters emerged, does one of them hold the answer to what happened six years ago? Redwood: This case has gone on for far too long and we need to bring some closure
Video continues with Paul Luckman
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Lyall on October 16, 2013, 12:13:04 AM
Your attempt to find humour in the case of a missing little girl is rather sickening.
Are you really unable to see the difference between the farce that is being played out in front of us and a lost little girl?
Maybe if you started thinking about the child involved, rather than the case or the parents. you wouldn't be so sickened by someone calling attention to the parody that we're meant to believe.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: kmc on October 16, 2013, 12:20:54 AM
It would be interesting if the press could make an effort to contact the whole Smith family and also find this "father who supposedly came forward". I say this because in the Sky piece - Peter Smith claims he could only remember the man's face under hypnosis, but makes out that it may or may not work - which makes me wonder if SY even worked with the Smith's to create the latest e-fits considering that, that particular member of the family had zero memory of the face. Secondly, he claims that the man was coming down the hill and they were walking up - in that kind of light and face-on I doubt any of them really knew what his hair was like.. Additionally, I know that the "father" has had his identity hidden and his hair looks brushed up in weird directions to make him look more like the sighting. I want to see a photo of him from his holiday and what his hair looked like because I am starting to wonder if SY really spoke with anyone...or just made it up as they went along.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 16, 2013, 12:21:29 AM
Are you really unable to see the difference between the farce that is being played out in front of us and a lost little girl?
Maybe if you started thinking about the child involved, rather than the case or the parents. you wouldn't be so sickened by someone calling attention to the parody that we're meant to believe.
Well said 8((()*/
These kind of posts that suggest people find a missing girl gone missing is funny, or dont want her found, or with some of the conspiracy theory extremists on that side of the camp suggesting posters here want to cover up the abduction and protect the abducter or amaral was involved in the abduction etc etc are so disingenuous deluded and desperate IMO
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 16, 2013, 01:03:45 AM
Going back to the OP heres the sky report, the beginning has been cut off
Transcript from beginning of report until start of the video
Now on sky news a special report to look at the latest attempts to discover who abducted madeleine mccann Jason farrel reports When madeleine vanished in may 2007 she became perhaps the most famous missing girl in the world Now new information released by uk police has been described as of vital importance to the case After more an six yearanof theories accusations and dead end lead is the investigation into madeleines mccanns disappearance finally on track?
Look into my eyes the posters asked but for all the the twistsand turns in the story when it came to appeals for info there has only been one face, but this week a selection of other potential characters emerged, does one of them hold the answer to what happened six years ago? Redwood: This case has gone on for far too long and we need to bring some closure
Video continues with Paul Luckman
Isn't amusing to see you relying on a pro-McCann site for the video?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Redblossom on October 16, 2013, 01:07:47 AM
Isn't amusing to see you relying on a pro-McCann site for the video?
No idea what youre talking about basically, but sounds like nonsense...i googled for the sky report and found a copy on thats all, i dont check who posts it, does it matter? Its the content, zzzzz
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benita on October 16, 2013, 01:11:30 AM
Are you really unable to see the difference between the farce that is being played out in front of us and a lost little girl?
Maybe if you started thinking about the child involved, rather than the case or the parents. you wouldn't be so sickened by someone calling attention to the parody that we're meant to believe.
Sorry, your trying to defend your nasty attempt at some kind of humour does not wash with me and your disgraceful insinuation that I am not thinking entirely about the missing child disgusts me.
If you choose to believe that this Scotland Yard inquiry is a parody that is your choice. Personally I think it a very foolish choice but you are entitled to it.
The lost little girl will not be found while people remain focused only on the McCanns as suspects. Scotland Yard have investigated them and found them not to be so. The Portuguese investigated them and found that there was no evidence whatsoever that they had committed any crime.
It is only people who for some very peculiar reason choose to disbelieve the words of two separate police investigations who remain fixated on them as suspects.
When you stop pretending that this is a parody and is actually about Madeleine McCann who was taken from her family back in 2007, who was failed miserably by Amaral and his team of so-called detectives as the Sky News programme we are discussing showed clearly this evening (as with the CCTV for example) then and only then might I take your attempts at humour seriously. Till then it is my opinion that you are mocking the child who is at the heart of the case.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 16, 2013, 01:17:30 AM
It would be interesting if the press could make an effort to contact the whole Smith family and also find this "father who supposedly came forward". I say this because in the Sky piece - Peter Smith claims he could only remember the man's face under hypnosis, but makes out that it may or may not work - which makes me wonder if SY even worked with the Smith's to create the latest e-fits considering that, that particular member of the family had zero memory of the face. Secondly, he claims that the man was coming down the hill and they were walking up - in that kind of light and face-on I doubt any of them really knew what his hair was like.. Additionally, I know that the "father" has had his identity hidden and his hair looks brushed up in weird directions to make him look more like the sighting. I want to see a photo of him from his holiday and what his hair looked like because I am starting to wonder if SY really spoke with anyone...or just made it up as they went along.
Yes I see your point. Scotland Yard just made it all up. OK, thats one point of view. Not a very sensible one in my view but you are entitled to it.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 16, 2013, 01:50:34 AM
Every country who once experimented dictatorship, once liberated, makes very sure that private life is respected. This is why, in Portugal, the MP must ask a court to grant access to sms which, in the McCann case, was refused. This is why no CCTV can be directed to the via publica. This is also why tourists come here. It's not only because of the sun and the cheap services.
I have just had a more careful look at the CCTV camera as depicted on Sky and it does appear to be a camera with 360* functionality, supplied by a company in Lagos. Interesting.
Also intersting that Goncalo Amaral himself was aware that the camera may well have been pointing towards the "via publica", the public highway when the abductor passed it.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 16, 2013, 02:07:25 AM
I don't think he was heading towards the beach, I think he was moving away from the resort.
Dont start that again Anne.
AS you well know there was a huge thread based on this and Aoife clearly stated that he was walking towards her on her LH side. That meant that he was either going towards the resort centre, Malinkas, the Church, the Fontazela ... or possibly passing her to go down the steps towards the little rocky beach.
He was NOT going away from the resort Centre
Simple logistics.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: gilet on October 16, 2013, 02:25:55 AM
I think he turned left in 25 de Abril, eastwards then.
I think you will find that Rua 25 de Abril heads East Southeast rather than East and also is a perfectly normal route to the beach. Whichever route the man took after the Smith sighting is not actually the topic of this thread though. Perhaps you should post your unsupported speculation in a new thread where it can be discussed more fully.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: sadie on October 16, 2013, 02:27:00 AM
I think he turned left in 25 de Abril, eastwards then.
A possibility, but also south is a possibility and as there is a wonderful (?)smugglers cove there, it could have been a good private pick-up spot by a small boat coming from a bigger vessel, to whisk Madeleine away.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: sadie on October 16, 2013, 02:28:00 AM
I think you will find that Rua 25 de Abril heads East Southeast rather than East and also is a perfectly normal route to the beach. Whichever route the man took after the Smith sighting is not actually the topic of this thread though. Perhaps you should post your unsupported speculation in a new thread where it can be discussed more fully.
Oh please, NO, not again!
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Albertini on October 16, 2013, 07:27:05 AM
A possibility, but also south is a possibility and as there is a wonderful (?)smugglers cove there, it could have been a good private pick-up spot by a small boat coming from a bigger vessel, to whisk Madeleine away.
Good grief, have you heard yourself?
Smuggler's cove? Small boat? Bigger vessel?
It's all a bit James Bond crossed with Enid Blyton.
Why would someone throw so much money at taking a child with all the risk that entails when with that kind of cash to burn they could have bought a child or adopted one.
If it's some kind of paedo ring they must be the most well financed in the world and surely there would be many more of these kinds of abductions.
If it's for a family wanting a child and ignoring the fact that someone with funds for two boats could simply pay for a child, where is that child now? Why has a doctor, dentist, school, neighbour never picked up on a couple one day randomly turning up with a ready made 3 year old?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 16, 2013, 07:48:32 AM
Even if the Portuguese police are the worlds crappiest police force ever in the history of the entire world, even if each and every one of them belongs in a Monty python sketch, this crime doesn't bear the hallmarks of a planned abduction!
davel, it just doesn't make sense! why no car? why hang around for an hour? why didn't Madeleine (if it was her with Smithman) scream at any point in the ten minute walk?
I can not accept that a planned abduction would look like that. At the very, very least I would expect transport.
it isn't surprising that at this stage there are more questions than answers...its like watching a magician on stage....the result looks impossible ...but when you see how he did it...its simple
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: icabodcrane on October 16, 2013, 08:42:54 AM
it isn't surprising that at this stage there are more questions than answers...its like watching a magician on stage....the result looks impossible ...but when you see how he did it...its simple
Well if there is a 'simple' explanation for an abductor going into an apartment, and an hour later still be walking the streets, just minutes away from the crime scene, openly carrying a snatched child ... I have yet to see it presented
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Benice on October 16, 2013, 08:55:33 AM
A possibility, but also south is a possibility and as there is a wonderful (?)smugglers cove there, it could have been a good private pick-up spot by a small boat coming from a bigger vessel, to whisk Madeleine away.
I've always thought it was very possible that Madeleine was taken out of the country by sea. It was noticeable how many times during the TV progs that it was stated the man the Smiths saw was seen 'walking towards the beach' or 'heading for the shoreline' etc.
I presume SY will consider that possibility - if they haven't already done so.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: John on October 16, 2013, 09:12:45 AM
They will probably find out in the final analysis that the man the Smiths saw was yet another tourist with a 6-year amnesia transporting his child from a crèche. The real abductor was probably miles away by 10pm.
I didn't think much of the Sky News report, same old same old... only the date has changed.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: icabodcrane on October 16, 2013, 09:22:51 AM
They will probably find out in the final analysis that the man the Smiths saw was yet another tourist with a 6-year amnesia transporting his child from a crèche. The real abductor was probably miles away by 10pm.
I didn't think much of the Sky News report, same old same old... only the date has changed.
I think you might be right John
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we are told that another 'anonymous' man has been identified as an entirely innocent father carrying his own child
Having dotted those two i's Scotland Yard can get on with closing this case by pinning it on a dead paedophile via the 'german connection'
Sorry to sound cynical
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 16, 2013, 10:04:24 AM
Well if there is a 'simple' explanation for an abductor going into an apartment, and an hour later still be walking the streets, just minutes away from the crime scene, openly carrying a snatched child ... I have yet to see it presented
who says it was an hour later
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: icabodcrane on October 16, 2013, 10:10:16 AM
Gerry McCann says the door to the children's bedroom was open more than he had left it ... indicating that someone had been in the apartment sometime between 8.30pm and 9.05pm
Scotland Yard say a significant sighting of a man carrying a child of Madeleine's description was made by an Irish family at 10pm
How can that time lapse be explained ?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Cariad on October 16, 2013, 10:20:01 AM
Sorry, your trying to defend your nasty attempt at some kind of humour does not wash with me and your disgraceful insinuation that I am not thinking entirely about the missing child disgusts me.
If you choose to believe that this Scotland Yard inquiry is a parody that is your choice. Personally I think it a very foolish choice but you are entitled to it.
The lost little girl will not be found while people remain focused only on the McCanns as suspects. Scotland Yard have investigated them and found them not to be so. The Portuguese investigated them and found that there was no evidence whatsoever that they had committed any crime.
It is only people who for some very peculiar reason choose to disbelieve the words of two separate police investigations who remain fixated on them as suspects.
When you stop pretending that this is a parody and is actually about Madeleine McCann who was taken from her family back in 2007, who was failed miserably by Amaral and his team of so-called detectives as the Sky News programme we are discussing showed clearly this evening (as with the CCTV for example) then and only then might I take your attempts at humour seriously. Till then it is my opinion that you are mocking the child who is at the heart of the case.
You really don't have any idea how funny you are do you gilet?
If you could take five minutes out from writing sanctimonious diatribes accusing people of laughing at the fate of a little girl and explain some of the glaring anomalies, I'd be very grateful.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Mr Gray on October 16, 2013, 10:46:43 AM
Gerry McCann says the door to the children's bedroom was open more than he had left it ... indicating that someone had been in the apartment sometime between 8.30pm and 9.05pm
Scotland Yard say a significant sighting of a man carrying a child of Madeleine's description was made by an Irish family at 10pm
How can that time lapse be explained ?
your observations are so inaccurate...im sure if you check it will be "may have been in the apartment"
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: icabodcrane on October 16, 2013, 10:50:29 AM
it isn't surprising that at this stage there are more questions than answers...its like watching a magician on stage....the result looks impossible ...but when you see how he did it...its simple
This could be true I suppose. I personally think that Smithman can not have been the abductor. There's too many hoops to jump through to reach that conclusion.
As others have said, at some point we'll find he was another holiday maker carrying his child home.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: John on October 16, 2013, 10:57:31 AM
Can SY really be so naive as to believe that an abductor or abductors would go to such trouble to plan an abduction only to be seen carrying their victim all through the village?
He, she or they weren't to know that the only GNR patrol was in Odiáxere some 20 minutes away...or did they?
Was Odiáxere in fact a diversion?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Montclair on October 16, 2013, 11:10:58 AM
Can SY really be so naive as to believe that an abductor or abductors would go to such trouble to plan an abduction only to be seen carrying their victim all through the village?
If it had been an abduction gone wrong and the abductor got lost and couldn't find the get away car, he most likely would have just left the child and made a run for it, instead of walking around town with a child in his arms.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: John on October 16, 2013, 11:17:56 AM
If it had been an abduction gone wrong and the abductor got lost and couldn't find the get away car, he most likely would have just left the child and made a run for it, instead of walking around town with a child in his arms.
Indeed, the fact that they got clean away without a single trace points to a vehicle being involved.
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: sadie on October 16, 2013, 01:07:30 PM
It's all a bit James Bond crossed with Enid Blyton.
Why would someone throw so much money at taking a child with all the risk that entails when with that kind of cash to burn they could have bought a child or adopted one.
If it's some kind of paedo ring they must be the most well financed in the world and surely there would be many more of these kinds of abductions.
If it's for a family wanting a child and ignoring the fact that someone with funds for two boats could simply pay for a child, where is that child now? Why has a doctor, dentist, school, neighbour never picked up on a couple one day randomly turning up with a ready made 3 year old?
Albertini - What is it to you that I put forward an idea ? Why are you so upset and keen to rubbish it? I made it plain that it is an idea, not fact
Anyone could be forgiven for thinking it definitely is a smugglers cove, and that you have a reason for trying to take the attention away.
I feel sure that you are not a smuggler or the abductor, but take care, cos in your enthusiasm to try and ridicule the possible use of this perhaps ?smugglers cove, you are sounding a bit like one trying to hide the cove
For instance, was there any need to sneer about the fact that this cove and boats could have been used? A distinct possibility in the minds of others.
All that I have suggested about that cove and boats is a definite possibility ... it is only a suggestion ... but it fits.
It fits bundleman as seen by the Smiths, and it fits the tides that night.
If a boat had to be summoned from Lagos (just 3-4 miles away), it fits the timing for that too
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: John on October 16, 2013, 01:31:02 PM
An interesting theory Sadie and one I know you are particularly fond of but why bother with such a complicated plan when a car would suffice?
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: icabodcrane on October 16, 2013, 01:34:00 PM
They will probably find out in the final analysis that the man the Smiths saw was yet another tourist with a 6-year amnesia transporting his child from a crèche. The real abductor was probably miles away by 10pm.
I didn't think much of the Sky News report, same old same old... only the date has changed.
Come on, John, this little girl hadn't swallowed by misfortune the Walska Heart or the Sancy !
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 16, 2013, 09:50:03 PM
8((()*/ Repeated on Sky News tomorrow night as well.
Thank you
Title: Re: Sky News Madeleine Investigation - 15 Oct 2013
Post by: Kazcutt on October 17, 2013, 09:36:35 PM
What a horrible man that was talking about how Portugal are not interested in madeleine . Think your find he a very much mistaken . TV appeal had more viewers recorded than ever . That bloke didn't have a clue .