UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Redblossom on December 03, 2013, 03:33:23 PM
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Anyone got any ideas? The others locked both front and back doors before going out and leaving the kids inside......
We are told the Mccanns left the patio/back doors closed but not locked and you could enter from outside by just sticking your hand in a slightly ajar space left and pulling them across...this done, according to Gerry Mccann soon after the first few days so as to make the least noise when entering and not waking the kids......
Even though they never considered this a security risk, either for any intruder or for the kids getting out, why the front door as well? When any of the kids could if they woke up, walk straight out of it. So easy to do.
They locked all the doors whilst out during the day, but left them unlocked at night.....this doesnt make sense.....
Also, why does Gerry Mccann say in his statement of 10th May he doesnt think the front door was locked because they left from the back? Can you not lock those front doors with a key from the outside?
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snippets from statements
Sunday night
Gerry 10th May
They left the house through the main door, that he was sure he locked, and the back door was also closed and locked.
<snip>
He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing if they locked it upon leaving
??
Wednesday night
He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key
Regarding Thursday
Gerry 4th May
Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked,
10th May
Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
Kate 6 September
Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside
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Anyone got any ideas? The others locked both front and back doors before going out and leaving the kids inside......
We are told the Mccanns left the patio/back doors closed but not locked and you could enter from outside by just sticking your hand in a slightly ajar space left and pulling them across...this done, according to Gerry Mccann soon after the first few days so as to make the least noise when entering and not waking the kids......
Even though they never considered this a security risk, either for any intruder or for the kids getting out, why the front door as well? When any of the kids could if they woke up, walk straight out of it. So easy to do.
They locked all the doors whilst out during the day, but left them unlocked at night.....this doesnt make sense.....
Also, why does Gerry Mccann say in his statement of 10th May he doesnt think the front door was locked because they left from the back? Can you not lock those front doors with a key from the outside?
Yes if course you can even double lock from the inside which would prevent anybody left in the flat to get out without a key.
Since, in day time, Mr McCann took care to lock the door-window after the family went out and before joining them through the car park, it logically seems they thought the kids would frighten away an eventual intruder.
Only Madeleine could get out of her bed. If she had tried to help a twin to get out of its cot, she risked to provoke a dislocated shoulder (painful).
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Yes if course you can even double lock from the inside which would prevent anybody left in the flat to get out without a key.
Since, in day time, Mr McCann took care to lock the door-window after the family went out and before joining them through the car park, it logically seems they thought the kids would frighten away an eventual intruder.
Only Madeleine could get out of her bed. If she had tried to help a twin to get out of its cot, she risked to provoke a dislocated shoulder (painful).
Thank you!!
PS I thnk 2 and 1/4 yr old kids are perfectly capable of climbing out of a small travel cot.....
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Front door unlocked, and they also say they didn't know if the children's bedroom window was locked or unlocked >@@(*&)
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Thank you!!
PS I thnk 2 and 1/4 yr old kids are perfectly capable of climbing out of a small travel cot.....
Those were deep ones with no grip to climb out. An acrobatic toddler could perhaps jump higher and higher and plunge head first like in a mortal salt !
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Front door unlocked, and they also say they didn't know if the children's bedroom window was locked or unlocked >@@(*&)
I know, you leave your three toddlers alone in a strange place to go out, and dont know, think it likely or unlikely, if the door, windows were locked, unlocked....sense? No.....most normal people would lock the bloody doors and windows, even if only for their kittens....getting out and injuring themselves or getting lost!
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As these statements are not verbatim but translated I think its worthless to try to make sense of them
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I know, you leave your three toddlers alone in a strange place to go out, and dont know, think it likely or unlikely, if the door, windows were locked, unlocked....sense? No.....most normal people would lock the bloody doors and windows, even if only for their kittens....getting out and injuring themselves or getting lost!
My cat fell from the 4th floor and waited petrified for me to come. I had to climb 2 high walls.. When I go out, I close all door-windows. She's free to fall but I want to be home if she does.
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Those were deep ones with no grip to climb out. An acrobatic toddler could perhaps jump higher and higher and plunge head first like in a mortal salt !
Ah, you never know with toddlers......cots, travel cots, stair gates, they can be houdinis in a second
@)(++(*
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My cat fell from the 4th floor and waited petrified for me to come. I had to climb 2 high walls.. When I go out, I close all door-windows. She's free to fall but I want to be home if she does.
You just dont take the risk do you? I mean why the hell would you? JMO
>@@(*&)
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I know, you leave your three toddlers alone in a strange place to go out, and dont know, think it likely or unlikely, if the door, windows were locked, unlocked....sense? No.....most normal people would lock the bloody doors and windows, even if only for their kittens....getting out and injuring themselves or getting lost!
Kate devotes just three paragraphs in the 400+ page book to this most crucial of issues >@@(*&)
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Toddlers can indeed climb out of cots if they wish to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTmKHw61P8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sPo-af9vKk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1-TdRGEyk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybJRToM6tB4 (and others)
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As these statements are not verbatim but translated I think its worthless to try to make sense of them
These statements are part of the files, whether you like them or not. The McCanns were told in English what was written, slowly and repeated as many times as they wanted. They weren't forced to sign and could require another translator. They signed.
Are you suggesting they're dumb and would have needed some kind of special treatment ?
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These statements are part of the files, whether you like them or not. The McCanns were told in English what was written, slowly and repeated as many times as they wanted. They weren't forced to sign and could require another translator. They signed.
Are you suggesting they're dumb and would have needed some kind of special treatment ?
They were told in English but they have no idea what was written down in Portuguese..no idea whatsoever.... the importance of this is obviously lost on you...legally the statements are totally worthless...they should have at least been recorded...very poor police practice by the pj
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Toddlers can indeed climb out of cots if they wish to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTmKHw61P8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sPo-af9vKk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1-TdRGEyk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybJRToM6tB4 (and others)
The third one is funny. But travel cots are different.
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They were told in English but they have no idea what was written down in Portuguese..no idea whatsoever.... the importance of this is obviously lost on you...legally the statements are totally worthless...they should have at least been recorded...very poor police practice by the pj
Davel, do they say the front door and children's bedroom window were locked in their book?
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Davel, do they say the front door and children's bedroom window were locked in their book?
I haven't read the book in its entirety but I think the translators made errors re front doors and patio doors
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Kate devotes just three paragraphs in the 400+ page book to this most crucial of issues >@@(*&)
I noticed...she also said them leaving the kids alone was the least of their concerns...or something along those lines....whether it was legally responsible or not, i will have to dig the quote out from the book
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I noticed...she also said them leaving the kids alone was the least of their concerns...
As thousands of british couples have done the same, I don't see a problem with this statement
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Toddlers can indeed climb out of cots if they wish to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTmKHw61P8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sPo-af9vKk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1-TdRGEyk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybJRToM6tB4 (and others)
LOL thats so funny CPN......
@)(++(*
and yes, normal
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They were told in English but they have no idea what was written down in Portuguese..no idea whatsoever.... the importance of this is obviously lost on you...legally the statements are totally worthless...they should have at least been recorded...very poor police practice by the pj
You are accusing the translator, without evidence, of a misdemeanor. Whether you like it or not, this is an obnoxious defamation, because you don't give a chance to the translator (the same for both McCanns) to defend herself.
Besides this is an anonymous accusation, all reasons to be proud of yourself !
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Bianca, the troll toilets and exit are that way, >>>>>>>>>silly boring moo, go watch corrie or something
@)(++(*
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You are accusing the translator, without evidence, of a misdemeanor. Whether you like it or not, this is an obnoxious defamation, because you don't give a chance to the translator (the same for both McCanns) to defend herself.
Besides this is an anonymous accusation, all reasons to be proud of yourself !
No I am not..it could be totally unintentional... I have seen the standard of some of your translations if thats anything to go by...the translated statements are legally worthless...would you like to addresss that point..
and as for defamations...what are the McCannns being accused of on this forum
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Hi Red,
Is there a difference between a 'locked' door and a door on a 'night latch' ?
I'm not familiar with the locking mechanisms on the front door of apt. 5A, just wondering if it had a 'close behind you' latch mechanism and then an extra 'deadlock' mechanism for additional security ?
It has a latch inside that you can move to get out if the door hasn't been locked with a key.
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You are accusing the translator, without evidence, of a misdemeanor. Whether you like it or not, this is an obnoxious defamation, because you don't give a chance to the translator (the same for both McCanns) to defend herself.
Besides this is an anonymous accusation, all reasons to be proud of yourself !
Thoroughly Predictable though isnt it......to blame anyone and everyone.........
front and back doors mixed up in translation
@)(++(*
only the back door, ie patio was never locked, couldnt be locked if they were using it...so no errors, locked door refers to front door
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No I am not..it could be totally unintentional... I have seen the standard of some of your translations if thats anything to go by...the translated statements are legally worthless...would you like to addresss that point..
and as for defamations...what are the McCannns being accused of on this forum
I think we're careful not to make any specific accusations tbh. You may be assuming things that aren't actually being said.
It's not a crime to state the story doesn't make sense, or that the reputation management campaign appalls people etc.
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Thoroughly Predictable though isnt it......to blame anyone and everyone.........
front and back doors mixed up in translation
@)(++(*
only the back door, ie patio was never locked, couldnt be locked if they were using it...so no errors, locked door refers to front door
The issue is did they really leave the door-window slightly open or did they only say they did? I've a feeling it was just saying. Why would Mrs McCann wonder aloud at the Tapas table whether they should leave the door-window for Madeleine to get out or not ? They obviously (cf. Mrs Fenn) checked less than they said and it doesn't make much sense they'd leave the door-window open for about one hour.
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The issue is did they really leave the door-window slightly open or did they only say they did? I've a feeling it was just saying. Why would Mrs McCann wonder aloud at the Tapas table whether they should leave the door-window for Madeleine to get out or not ? They obviously (cf. Mrs Fenn) checked less than they said and it doesn't make much sense they'd leave the door-window open for about one hour.
If they didnt leave the patio door open that means oldfield was lying, also obrien when he says he went through it on sunday night to check in on the mccann kids.....oh that was the night they said they locked it!!!
Franky I dont believe at least half of what they say.....if they cant make anything make sense it means its nonsense
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If they didnt leave the patio door open that means oldfield was lying, also obrien when he says he went through it on sunday night to check in on the mccann kids.....oh that was the night they said they locked it!!!
Franky I dont believe at least half of what they say.....if they cant make anything make sense it means its nonsense
And as we know Rachel Oldfield stated that when she walked past the McCann's apartment after the McCann's had left she saw the patio shutter down.
When was it opened and by whom?
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If they didnt leave the patio door open that means oldfield was lying, also obrien when he says he went through it on sunday night to check in on the mccann kids.....oh that was the night they said they locked it!!!
Franky I dont believe at least half of what they say.....if they cant make anything make sense it means its nonsense
If something is sure it is that Mr Oldfield never entered (he might have listened to the shutters. Then he couldn't because of Tannerman, now he can because of Innocentman), his narrative is full of too many rough errors.
If something is sure too it is that Mr O'Brien didn't enter as well, at least on Sunday. He stated he checked also the Oldfield child, but Mr Oldfield was there, being sick !
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And as we know Rachel Oldfield stated that when she walked past the McCann's apartment after the McCann's had left she saw the patio shutter down.
When was it opened and by whom?
Did she actually say that?? I thought she said that the mccanns had to lift the patio shutters to check on their kids LOL.......
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If something is sure it is that Mr Oldfield never entered (he might have listened to the shutters. Then he couldn't because of Tannerman, now he can because of Innocentman), his narrative is full of too many rough errors.
If something is sure too it is that Mr O'Brien didn't enter as well, at least on Sunday. He stated he checked also the Oldfield child, but Mr Oldfield was there, being sick !
I know, too much NONSENSE!!!
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Did she actually say that?? I thought she said that the mccanns had to lift the patio shutters to check on their kids LOL.......
From Rachel's statement on the 15th May:
When they arrived at the restaurant at 20.45 the McCann couple was already there.
They were talking to a couple they knew from tennis, whose name she cannot remember. Jane was also there but she was not talking to them. The Payne family and Dianne arrived just after 21.00. Matthew bumped into them as he had gone to the apartment, but he did not enter, he just listened outside to see if there was any noise. He did the same at the Tanner and McCann apartments.
The window shutters of the McCann's apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
At about 21.00 they were all seated at the restaurant. At 21.05 Gerry went to check on his children and returned minutes later. Jane also went to heck on her children before returning.
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From Rachel's statement on the 15th May:
Amazing....can this mean anything but she didnt know what she was talking about? its one thing to say that the shutters to the patio door were closed, a normal thing, but another to say they raised them to check on the kids!!! Where the hell did she get that idea from?
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They had conversations about why Gerry was away so long and Rachael says he was gone only minutes.
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From Rachel's statement on the 15th May:
Did Mrs Oldfield deduce from what she heard (leaving or not the door-window slightly open) that they lifted the shutter to enter (since she effectively saw those shutters were shut) ?
She might have seen the shutters closed on the other nights, when going back home. I don't think Mrs Oldfield ever checked, she was afraid of the false pepper trees' shadows.
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As thousands of british couples have done the same, I don't see a problem with this statement
davel, thousands of drivers have broken the speed limit - that does not make it right. Thousands of drivers have driven while drunk, that certainly does not make it right (having lost my father to a drunk driver it most certainly does not make it right). The fact that others do something is never a justification for you to do it also.
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davel, thousands of drivers have broken the speed limit - that does not make it right. Thousands of drivers have driven while drunk, that certainly does not make it right (having lost my father to a drunk driver it most certainly does not make it right). The fact that others do something is never a justification for you to do it also.
But Mum! All the cool kids are doing it! @)(++(*
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But Mum! All the cool kids are doing it! @)(++(*
Too bad. We are all, in the last analysis, responsible for our own actions - and that applies to parents who leave their children alone out of sight and hearing, drivers who speed, drivers who drink too much etc etc.
And we are then responsible for the outcomes of those actions
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Did Mrs Oldfield deduce from what she heard (leaving or not the door-window slightly open) that they lifted the shutter to enter (since she effectively saw those shutters were shut) ?
She might have seen the shutters closed on the other nights, when going back home. I don't think Mrs Oldfield ever checked, she was afraid of the false pepper trees' shadows.
She must have been "thick" to deduce that!!!
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If the Mccanns had decided to stay in the apartment that night and drank alcohol, forgot to close the doors/windows or failed to secure the place etc how would you feel then CPN?
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Too bad. We are all, in the last analysis, responsible for our own actions - and that applies to parents who leave their children alone out of sight and hearing, drivers who speed, drivers who drink too much etc etc.
And we are then responsible for the outcomes of those actions
These are values which tend to disappear with the increase of insurances against anything.
A car almost kills you, why should it brake, the driver's got a civil insurance that will pay the funeral and a small compensation. You play with your phonecell as if it were a ball, it falls and breaks, don't bother, the insurance will pay for a new one.
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If the Mccanns had decided to stay in the apartment that night and drank alcohol, forgot to close the doors/windows or failed to secure the place etc how would you feel then CPN?
But they werent they made the conscious decision which is worst!
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Thank you!!
PS I thnk 2 and 1/4 yr old kids are perfectly capable of climbing out of a small travel cot.....
No, they are not! I have two of them in my family and I can assure you they cannot come out of the travel cot, which is the same type McCanns used.
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A car almost kills you, why should it brake, the driver's got a civil insurance that will pay the funeral and a small compensation.
Did you mean to say that or was it another translation error?
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If the Mccanns had decided to stay in the apartment that night and drank alcohol, forgot to close the doors/windows or failed to secure the place etc how would you feel then CPN?
If, as responsible parents, they drank so much alcohol that they forgot to lock up properly, then yes, that would be their responsibility.
These are values which tend to disappear with the increase of insurances against anything.
A car almost kills you, why should it brake, the driver's got a civil insurance that will pay the funeral and a small compensation.
Insurance may well pay for the funeral. It can never bring back the person who was killed, nor compensate for all the losses that follow on from the death.
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Where do you draw the line? Three drinks make me tipsy, if I have one or two more I would consider myself to be rather merrier than usual but not falling down drunk.
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If, as responsible parents, they drank so much alcohol that they forgot to lock up properly, then yes, that would be their responsibility.
Insurance may well pay for the funeral. It can never bring back the person who was killed, nor compensate for all the losses that follow on from the death.
But who cares more than feeling sorry ? As long as it doesn't affect one's purse.
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It's called humanity.
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Did Mrs Oldfield deduce from what she heard (leaving or not the door-window slightly open) that they lifted the shutter to enter (since she effectively saw those shutters were shut) ?
She might have seen the shutters closed on the other nights, when going back home. I don't think Mrs Oldfield ever checked, she was afraid of the false pepper trees' shadows.
It makes no sense does it, to shut the patio door shutters down and then go check, unless of course you were using the front door which was unlocked. IF THE patio door shutters down perhaps they would do that to stop the child from coming out on her own?
Either way can you imagine how often the shutters would have had to go up that night, the noise alone you would hear in the Tapas bar.
So much about the statements in this case make no sense.
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Thank you!!
PS I thnk 2 and 1/4 yr old kids are perfectly capable of climbing out of a small travel cot.....
I agree, I had my grandson stay with me when he was two, and he managed to get out whilst i was getting the other one (older) ready for bed lol, little monkey. I think some children are very forward and fast. My youngest daughter would not have been capable, but my grandson who likes climbing was...
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Where do you draw the line? Three drinks make me tipsy, if I have one or two more I would consider myself to be rather merrier than usual but not falling down drunk.
If you are responsible for young children you draw the line BEFORE you lose your sense of proportion and carefulness
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I have never fully understood the locking of the main front door. Despite years of trying. IMHO it was a slam lock, probably with a latch\lever on the inside to dead lock, remember the old fashioned Yale type locks.
But it would also be DEADLOCKED from outside, if you read JT's Roggie statement she describes locking the door so her daughter could NOT get *out.
There are so many locks and lever systems, and I really have no idea what types they use in Portugal.
Therefore the status of the front door was locked so no one unless they had a key could get IN. But anyone could get *OUT. The door could afteral, only be deadlocked from outside (i.e. turn the barrel twice)
Therefore it would have been IMHO very possible for an abductor to have entered via the rear sliding & unlocked patio door and mere WALKED OUT OF THE FRONT main door.
Then!!
Of course, begs the question
What's with the shutters and windows.
A Break in: And for convenience of the conversation, as fully explained in the Sun Times, ''Beyond the smears'' The cleaners were in the habit of leaving the windows unlocked. That explains no broken glass
A Break out: Really, with a door you can walk through!
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It makes no sense does it, to shut the patio door shutters down and then go check, unless of course you were using the front door which was unlocked. IF THE patio door shutters down perhaps they would do that to stop the child from coming out on her own?
Either way can you imagine how often the shutters would have had to go up that night, the noise alone you would hear in the Tapas bar.
So much about the statements in this case make no sense.
Perhaps they used to listen to the door-window shutters, leaving the door-window slightly open to hear better. If they had to go to the bathroom or watch football's results on TV they would enter through the real door (i.e an item you can open from both sides).
There's no logical explanation for the fuss about the crying episode and the leaving the door-window open on that precise night whereas they said it was "usual practice".
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I have never fully understood the locking of the main front door. Despite years of trying. IMHO it was a slam lock, probably with a latch\lever on the inside to dead lock, remember the old fashioned Yale type locks.
Hi Meadow !
This lock (now no more used because it was too easy to get in with some bankcard if it wasn't deadlocked) is deadlockable (one or two turns) from both sides.
If you just slam the door, you will be able to open it again
- from the outside with a key (or a bankcard, not in the case of 5A because of a screw)
- from the inside pulling a latch
If you're in and want a basic protection, you better deadlock with the key (and leave the key in place in case of emergency). I didn't use to do that and once somebody got in, stole a lot of things before realising we were in (we heard a noise but interpreted it another way..).
A Break in: And for convenience of the conversation, as fully explained in the Sun Times, ''Beyond the smears'' The cleaners were in the habit of leaving the windows unlocked. That explains no broken glass
People don't use to leave unlocked ground floor windows, even if entering this way isn't properly easy.
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Where do you draw the line? Three drinks make me tipsy, if I have one or two more I would consider myself to be rather merrier than usual but not falling down drunk.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-564044/Three-British-children-taken-care-middle-class-parents-drink-stupor-Algarve.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206007/British-couple-arrested-abandoning-child-drunk-exonerated-Portuguese-social-workers.html
Shame the PJ/GNR were not so vigilant on the night of the 3rd May with all these chldren abandoned in apartments whilst the parents went out to drink. 8 bottles of wine apparantly lots a lot of vino.....
Hope this works...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&oq=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&aqs=chrome..69i57.967j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-564044/Three-British-children-taken-care-middle-class-parents-drink-stupor-Algarve.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206007/British-couple-arrested-abandoning-child-drunk-exonerated-Portuguese-social-workers.html
Shame the PJ/GNR were not so vigilant on the night of the 3rd May with all these chldren abandoned in apartments whilst the parents went out to drink. 8 bottles of wine apparantly lots a lot of vino.....
Hope this works...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&oq=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&aqs=chrome..69i57.967j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
The final feeling about this was that it was an over-rection by various agnecies as chinese whispers magnified by McCann paranoia took over.
No charges were filed, the children were returned and the couple were exonerated.
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The final feeling about this was that it was an over-rection by various agnecies as chinese whispers magnified by McCann paranoia took over.
No charges were filed, the children were returned and the couple were exonerated.
Exonerated ???
The Mccanns actions by leaving their children in an 'unlocked' apartment led to the disappearance of Madeleine.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-564044/Three-British-children-taken-care-middle-class-parents-drink-stupor-Algarve.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206007/British-couple-arrested-abandoning-child-drunk-exonerated-Portuguese-social-workers.html
Shame the PJ/GNR were not so vigilant on the night of the 3rd May with all these chldren abandoned in apartments whilst the parents went out to drink. 8 bottles of wine apparantly lots a lot of vino.....
Hope this works...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&oq=young+mother+arrested+in+uk+for+going+to+pub+and+leaving+her+children&aqs=chrome..69i57.967j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
How likely is it for 9 people to drink 8 bottles of wine in an hour - whilst consuming a three course meal at the same time? Not very IMO.
The number of bottles put on the table is not proof of how much of that wine had actually been consumed when the alarm was given only an hour after the meal was ordered.
It's not as if they went out for a drink in a pub - they went to a restaurant for their evening meal - which included wine.
IIRC Witnesses confirmed that at no time did anyone appear to be inebriated - and there were no reports from the GNR or PJ that anyone appeared to be under the influence of alcohol.
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IIRC Witnesses confirmed that at no time did anyone appear to be inebriated - and there were no reports from the GNR or PJ that anyone appeared to be under the influence of alcohol.
Do you have a link for that, it has always seemed a fuzzy area in the files. (Genuine question - I have always thought trying to work out a timeline of an evening after having had a number of drinks would be difficult, speaking from personal experience, you tend to be able to put things to within 30 mins.)
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Do you have a link for that, it has always seemed a fuzzy area in the files. (Genuine question - I have always thought trying to work out a timeline of an evening after having had a number of drinks would be difficult, speaking from personal experience, you tend to be able to put things to within 30 mins.)
IMO Trying to remember a number of timelines when you had no idea you were going to have to recall those timelines and so didn't pay that much attention at the time, would be difficult even without having a drink - especially if you had suffered a terrible shock at the time. Hence the perfectly normal discrepancies imo.
If there had been any suggestion by the GNR/PJ or anyone else that night that the McCanns and their friends were considered to be inebriated - then I am sure it would be recorded in the witness files. As far as I know - none exist. If there is any evidence in the files to the contrary - then I will gladly retract.
From memory - (I haven't got time to look at the moment ) it may have been the restaurant staff who said no-one appeared to be inebriated.
Must go out now.
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One could almost say "Why does it matter how much they drank? The children were left out of sight and hearing - end of. The question of drink only adds to the lack of responsibility.
The question of drink came into it because drummer asked "If the Mccanns had decided to stay in the apartment that night and drank alcohol, forgot to close the doors/windows or failed to secure the place etc how would you feel then CPN?" and I answered that "If, as responsible parents, they drank so much alcohol that they forgot to lock up properly, then yes, that would be their responsibility." The matter of responsibility remains.
As I said in an earlier answer:
"We are all, in the last analysis, responsible for our own actions - and that applies to parents who leave their children alone out of sight and hearing, drivers who speed, drivers who drink too much etc etc.
And we are then responsible for the outcomes of those actions"
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It's a pity they weren't breathalised, then we'd have the answer once and for all.
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Why should their rights be abrogated so that insignificant forum members can play armchair detectives.
It obviously bothers you that insignificant forum members can play armchair detective.
Should only the more significant members have that right?
The files were made public were they not, we are free to read, question & consider possibilities.
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How likely is it for 9 people to drink 8 bottles of wine in an hour - whilst consuming a three course meal at the same time? Not very IMO.
The number of bottles put on the table is not proof of how much of that wine had actually been consumed when the alarm was given only an hour after the meal was ordered.
It's not as if they went out for a drink in a pub - they went to a restaurant for their evening meal - which included wine.
IIRC Witnesses confirmed that at no time did anyone appear to be inebriated - and there were no reports from the GNR or PJ that anyone appeared to be under the influence of alcohol.
Re: no reports from the GNR.It is true IIRC that in GNR officers' official statements to PJ there is no reference of this type..
P.s. The tabloid report by journalist VA on 6 Nov 07 presumably is typical UK press invention..