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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on May 14, 2012, 04:53:35 PM
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This is the dreadful scene which met armed police officers on the morning of the murders as they made their way into the kitchen at White House Farm. What originally they thought was the body of a woman was discovered to be in fact Nevill Bamber seated partially in a chair but leaning forward with his head in a coal scuttle.
It has been suggested that the burn marks made on Nevill Bamber's back were in fact made with a hot rifle barrel. We know that as a result of tests it was found that a rifle barrel does not get hot enough to cause such burning.
It is now being suggested therefore that the tip of the rifle barrel was heated by being set on the Aga cooker. As it was the middle of the night and in August I don't think the Aga would have been hot enough to conduct that sort of heat.
The Bamber family Aga cooker was coke fuelled in 1985. Such a cooker was well capable of running through the night and especially so if set to low output. The photographs taken of the cooker on the morning of the murders depict a cooker which was either on a very low heat or not then lit. We have no way of knowing the status of the cooker when the murders took place prior to 3.00am but the first police officers on the scene record the Aga as being lit when they arrived.
(http://i.imgur.com/KRqE8.jpg)
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(http://i.imgur.com/KRqE8.jpg)
I agree that the Aga is unlikely to have been on in mid-August, but if it was oil-fired why was there a coal scuttle handy in the kitchen ?
I thought the fire door was as in 1 and even if it was oil-fired, access would be needed to the burners for maintenance.
Is that the piece of the broken-off rifle butt, or something else at 2 ?
And is 3 a blood-stained towel ?
For anyone to brand Nevill's upper back, his pyjama top would have to be pulled down at the neck first and then replaced as at 4.
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An Aga cooker identical to that found in the kitchen at White House farm in 1985.
This particular model has been converted to oil.
(http://i.imgur.com/qU06s.jpg)
http://www.aveccookers.co.uk/products-page/agas/2-oven-oil-fired-fully-reconditioned-traditional-aga-cooker/
Below is a photo of the Bamber kitchen showing the Aga cooker.
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Thanks for your reply John!
The modern oil-fired Aga has a much larger access door to the pressure-jet burner, (as you probably know oil has be turned into a fine mist before it will ignite, and therefore has to be contained in a sealed combustion chamber to prevent oily fumes and flames from escaping into the room) unlike the refurbished one in your photograph, which if I'm right could be a converted solid-fuel model, ie. from solid fuel to oil. The Aga 2-oven design hasn't changed much since it was introduced in the 1930's and removal of ashes was always a messy task through the small door, until the industrial vac became the norm.
As I've noted elsewhere before, the burn marks on the back could well have been made a lit cigarette, and after all with or without silencer it was a loaded rifle that did the damage to Nevill.
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Has anyone read Mike's latest theorising called So and so, said so...?
Another classic Sheila done it scenario this time with a twist. Apparently she leant the rifle on the 'hot' Aga oven while reloading and before shooting Nevill again. According to Mike this is how Nevill got the burn marks on the back of his neck.
Lets see >@@(*&) Hot Aga? ...at 3am in a balmy August morning? I know a lot of people who have kitchen stoves and not one of them runs a stove 24/7 in the months of July and August. Even if the Aga was on and warm at 3am in the morning it would not have been hot and most certainly never hot enough to super heat the tip of a rifle for any length of time.
Only the police, possibly Barbara Wilson or Jean Bouttell and Jeremy Bamber himself would have known if the AGA was lit that morning. (vidvic may know through his contact with the family)
But assuming it was coke-fired and alight on idle, even if the rifle end wasn't used, another implement such as one hung up on the right could have been used to remove the filler plug in the boiling plate and then inserted in the combustion chamber or inserted through the lower fire door. It wouldn't have taken very long to bring it up to branding temperature and used to inflict the marks, to test if he was still alive or simply for malicious intent.
If it was for the first reason it begs the question as to why he didn't feel for a wrist pulse. Maybe he didn't know how..., or it didn't cross his mind..., or he was mindful of leaving blooded fingerprint evidence.
Neil B..... has just revealed that the AGA was on medium setting and that it was solid-fuelled.
John... were you aware of that, as I thought earlier this year you assumed it was oil-fired and wasn't on?
To me it does make sense because of...,
1. the coal scuttle present in the kitchen, (sometimes referred to as the AGA coal scuttle).
2. the absence of any oil storage tank outside in close proximity to the kitchen.
3. the lack of any oil control/fire valve near to the AGA.
4. the old style design of the front, unlike the later oil-fired one with a larger ash/fire-door.
5. the large connected coal store.
Wilkes refers to it being on that day... "The kettle boiled on the Aga, coffee gurgled in the percolator"... but this may just be artistic license.
In addition, three adults (four if Jeremy Bamber is included) and two children had to be fed that week.
I'm assuming the house had no central heating (AGAs only heat domestic hot water) so even on Summer nights the house may not have been that warm. Why would an electric blanket be left in the parents' bed in the middle of Summer anyway if it wasn't to be used?
So branding using the AGA as a heat source may be significant, and this may be the direction future tests (if any) will be carried out.
But as I mentioned in an earlier post.... how relevant is it?
Just because the heated rifle end could have been used to inflict the burns doesn't mean the moderator wasn't fitted at all that morning.... or am I missing something?
[I've just previewed this post and the name B..... has been automatically censored... why is that.. ellis isn't rude is it?] 8-)(--)
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The relevance of the Aga cooker seems to run and run Myster but the truth seems to be that the cooker was in fact a coke fuelled Aga of the 1935 circa.
I think the confusion arose as the old Aga models which looked exactly like the one in the Bamber kitchen have now been converted to gas or oil. The old Aga's like the Bambers was fuelled by coke from the top into a hopper above the firebox and this need only be done once or twice a day.
At night the cooker would be set to its lowest output and the two heat dampers lowered as in the photo below. A unique feature of the Aga was that even with the fire extinguished it could retain the heat for nearly 12 hours.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=345.0;attach=1383;image)
I find it unlikely that the barrel of a rifle could be heated sufficiently enough to cause burn marks as seen on Nevill's back by simply placing it against the cooker but then again if someone really wanted to do this they could open the lid of the cooker and place the barrel of the rifle directly into the firebox.
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Where did your earlier reply disappear to, John... I see you've started a different thread.
Are you certain it was solid fuel now?
If so, some of the info below referring to oil-fired AGAs may not be relevant.
I can't see a scuttle being present in the kitchen if it wasn't used.
It depends whether you believe ngb or not, and I know buddy once referred to a police statement which stated that the AGA was lit.
Although I don't have one now I have past experience of two Rayburns and these were always filled through a hole left by a removable plug in one of the hotplates on top, and AGAs are filled in the same way via the left-hand boiling plate plug-hole (see the 3-dimensional cut-out view in an earlier post and the photos below).
They are only filled, say once a day anyway, so removing and replacing pots and pans is no problem.
All solid-fuel AGAs have a rudimentary thermostat lever on the left to control temperature... the slotted vent at the bottom is just that, an immovable vent.
Yes, all the circular plates are removed for maintenance, but the central portion is a small plug removed for filling only.
Youtube has a few informative servicing videos on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvq-gLVVN7Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvq-gLVVN7Y)
Any long implement other than just a rifle end could have been inserted through this hole into the hot coals or failing that via the ash-door on the lower front face, into the hot ashes or the grate just above them (assuming Nevill's body was not in the way).
If the AGA was set to low then this would bring any metal up to temperature more quickly than putting it into one of the ovens on the right.
The earlier oil-fired vapourising jet boilers (unlike more recent pressure-jet ones) have to be on continuously... they are not like ordinary modern oil boilers which can be turned on and off in an instant. AGAs rely on constant heat input to keep the solid heavy metal structure hot if they are to run efficiently, (much like an electric overnight storage heater retains heat in firebricks).
This applies just the same with a coke-fired AGA.... you prevent them from going out by keeping them regularly filled.
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8651/capture0013012201217555.jpg)
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9471/capture0023012201217570.jpg)
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Just for clarity, here is a photo of an identical cooker with the lid completely removed.
(http://i.imgur.com/xCqqS.jpg?2)
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I agree Myster so I have altered the original thread and will bring anything relevant back into this new one when I get a chance to review it.
The photos of the scene in the kitchen certainly show the Aga dampened down for the night but the firebox would have still been hot and ready to go as soon as it was required in the morning.
I wonder what you think about the heated rifle barrel theory? Do you think Sheila would have had the presence of mind to do such a thing because I certainly don't.
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Re the photo:-
The open combustion chamber on the left and the whitish insulant on the right, a lot of which has been removed.
Ashpit door at bottom left (KEEP TIGHTLY CLOSED)
As for Sheila, I doubt very much if she even had the wickedness in her to consider it... by all accounts she was daddy's girl.
Then there was the coordination issue... beans on toast... making a drink... etc.
If they were inflicted that morning, and not in the fields by farming machinery the previous day, as Shona suggested, then the only two reasons that I can think of at the moment are to test if Nevill was still alive or for some deranged malicious purpose.
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I agree Myster so I have altered the original thread and will bring anything relevant back into this new one when I get a chance to review it.
The photos of the scene in the kitchen certainly show the Aga dampened down for the night but the firebox would have still been hot and ready to go as soon as it was required in the morning.
I wonder what you think about the heated rifle barrel theory? Do you think Sheila would have had the presence of mind to do such a thing because I certainly don't.
An interesting proposition guys. 8-)(--)
If what you are suggesting is true this puts the blame well back on Jeremy Bamber for all sorts of reasons. Jeremy had a mark on the back of his hand too didn't he? hmm... >@@(*&)
I go with the malicious myster.
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Something else, if the tip of the rifle barrel had been heated to such an extent in a fire the surface coating would have tarnished or become sooted but I don't see any reference to this in the forensics.
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Something else, if the tip of the rifle barrel had been heated to such an extent in a fire the surface coating would have tarnished or become sooted but I don't see any reference to this in the forensics.
If you look at the PC Whiddon '85 b&w rifle photo there doesn't seem to be any damage to the bluing at the end, so maybe it wasn't used.
Can't really tell from old pictures though... the rifle would have to be released from police storage to examine it professionally.
McKay hasn't applied for it to be released (yet) apparently.... he'll probably walk away after the latest setback.
And it wouldn't have got hot enough even by shooting twenty five rounds in quick succession (on the night there would have been breaks between firing it anyway, upstairs and down, allowing cooling off periods in between).
Could one of the tools hanging up to the right of the AGA, say a plug removal bar, have been responsible instead?
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Part of the recently released court judgement (Judicial Review 29th.Nov.2012)....,
29. It would, I think, be helpful to add one further matter. Prior to the Commission making its report, the Commissioners were aware from the screening of the television documentary of the evidence of Mr Boyce, to which I have already referred. His conclusion was a conclusion in support of Dr Caruso, but there was no evidence in that television documentary to show how the barrel of the rifle could have been heated sufficiently.
30. There is, however, a further report that was submitted, after the Commission's decision of 25 April 2012, in which Mr Boyce set out his view as to how the rifle end could have been heated to the necessary temperature. He accepts that multiple firing would not have had sufficient effect on the temperature of the rifle barrel or the silencer. He concludes that the rifle or the silencer had to be heated artificially in order to burn. It was possible to heat a barrel on a hot plate of a cooker to 200 degrees in less than five minutes.
31. This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view. There was in the kitchen an AGA. The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid. An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up. As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate. It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
32. So in my judgment it is clear that the evidence of Dr Caruso, on the assumption that it is admissible, would not in the Commission's judgment have been sufficient to pass the test in Pendleton, and I can see no basis upon which their view could be challenged.
[Admin, if you think posting the above breaches crown copyright then I will remove it]
Full document available here....,
http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission (http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission)
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Part of the recently released court judgement (Judicial Review 29th.Nov.2012)....,
29. It would, I think, be helpful to add one further matter. Prior to the Commission making its report, the Commissioners were aware from the screening of the television documentary of the evidence of Mr Boyce, to which I have already referred. His conclusion was a conclusion in support of Dr Caruso, but there was no evidence in that television documentary to show how the barrel of the rifle could have been heated sufficiently.
30. There is, however, a further report that was submitted, after the Commission's decision of 25 April 2012, in which Mr Boyce set out his view as to how the rifle end could have been heated to the necessary temperature. He accepts that multiple firing would not have had sufficient effect on the temperature of the rifle barrel or the silencer. He concludes that the rifle or the silencer had to be heated artificially in order to burn. It was possible to heat a barrel on a hot plate of a cooker to 200 degrees in less than five minutes.
31. This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view. There was in the kitchen an AGA. The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid. An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up. As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate. It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
32. So in my judgment it is clear that the evidence of Dr Caruso, on the assumption that it is admissible, would not in the Commission's judgment have been sufficient to pass the test in Pendleton, and I can see no basis upon which their view could be challenged.
[Admin, if you think posting the above breaches crown copyright then I will remove it]
Full document available here....,
http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission (http://www.crimeline.info/case/bamber-v-criminal-cases-review-commission)
A nice bit of work myster. I must have a read up on the full judgement. 8((()*/
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I've had a look. The JR seems pretty scathing of the celebrated "Arizona Tests" doesn't it? And that was pretty much the only thing McKay had.
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There is no comparison is there.
On the one hand you have the warm, blood rich, delicate skin of a living human being, to the cold dead, bloodless rind of a pig.
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I agree Andrea, it's strikingly obvious. It almost seems like a direct attempt to fabricate evidence under unfair circumstances.
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Thank you for posting these links. Having read the judgement, it shows just how carefully and thoroughly Bamber's case has been reconsidered yet again. The idea that there has been some sort of conspiracy by the " establishment " to sustain the conviction of an innocent man is bizarre. Bamber, unlike a few other individuals who tragically have been victims of miscarriages of justice, has been treated with great fairness at considerable cost to the public purse. His few remaining supporters need to step back from their emotional commitment to his cause and realise that his conviction is entirely safe.
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With respect I disagree, your threshold for a conviction being safe is a lot lower than mine. There are too many questions still not answered for me so I will carry on searching and hope maybe there is further information to help get to the truth in information still withheld under PII.
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With respect I disagree, your threshold for a conviction being safe is a lot lower than mine. There are too many questions still not answered for me so I will carry on searching and hope maybe there is further information to help get to the truth in information still withheld under PII.
But we don't need any further information Jackie. Everything which is available tells us that Sheila was set up and the only other person in the frame is Jeremy.
On another point it was wrongly claimed yesterday that Jeremy had no marks on him when he did.
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There was only one person being framed for these slayings, and that was Sheila.
Bamber makes a big fuss over the silencer, he knows if it was on or off that night, but he cant say or he will drop himself in it! We have all seen the photo's of Sheila. she's innocent.
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Even Mike knows that Sheila didnt kill herself. He said so on the forum.
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Andrea the CCRC would not have spent thousands or millions on this case if it was that simple.
There has always been doubt in this case and while evidence is still withheld it will continue and no doubt a fresh application is being prepared for the CCRC
As time goes on the subject of PII will be further scrutenised by the media and I believe evidence will not be hidden away so easily that might give definitive answers saving millions of pounds in applications to the CCRC
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Ca a PII be overturned? I cannot find the answer on the internet and it doesn't state if a PII lasts forever or a set number of years.
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Joanne Ngb will know the answer
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Andrea the CCRC would not have spent thousands or millions on this case if it was that simple.
There has always been doubt in this case and while evidence is still withheld it will continue and no doubt a fresh application is being prepared for the CCRC
As time goes on the subject of PII will be further scrutenised by the media and I believe evidence will not be hidden away so easily that might give definitive answers saving millions of pounds in applications to the CCRC
With respect, too, Jackie IMO the issue of PII may be a red herring and not some sort of Holy Grail in providing evidence of Jeremy Bamber's innocence . Essex Police, when they finally got their act together , interviewed and took statements from people who for example knew the family, knew Jeremy and Sheila specifically, more distant relatives etc . This material was not used in court, probably because it was peripheral to the main case. In addition they should have things like personal letters from Sheila to relatives which do not help Jeremy's cause because they present a different perspective on Sheila's state of mind in contrast to the picture of demonic psychotic illness favoured by those who argue that she was responsible for the shootings. I know that very sympathetic letters of condolence were sent to Jeremy after the murders offering help etc. These too seem to have disappeared and possibly are held by EP. Some gruesome crime scene photos such as off the twins head gunshot wounds may also have been kept out of the public domain. EP have a duty of care to protect
individuals and their families from the frankly brutal harassment of the media besides other private individuals with an interest in the case who are able to use the various web modes to broadcast their opinions without much fear of prosecution or civil action for defamation.
Even the children of family members who did provide evidence have been subject to quite intolerable pressures.
However, I do realise that PII witheld material does provide ammunition for conspiracy theorists. Maybe it would be better if the CCRC was more explicit about their awareness of PII documentation and its relevance to their deliberations and likewise could explain in more detail what is being witheld and why. At a personal level, I can tell you that my family's privacy could be at risk simply because a late relative
( not directly related to the Bambers ) made a statement as part of EP's wider investigation . I am pretty sure that I know the names of others in a similiar position.
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As a postscript to my earlier post , it is interesting that Simon Mc Kay who seems to be a sharp advocate, does not seem to have made play with the PII issue in his representation of Jeremy Bamber but rather has concentrated on things like the US gun tests .
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Ca a PII be overturned? I cannot find the answer on the internet and it doesn't state if a PII lasts forever or a set number of years.
Certainly can Joanne. A judge can vary its terms or remove it on application. As already commented on by Dillon it is noticeable that Jeremy Bamber's lawyer Simon McKay hasn't dared go down this route because he knows it would be a waste of time. The PII material Is merely an embarrassment to Essex Police and holds no answers to the White House murders.
Hope this helps.
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Andrea the CCRC would not have spent thousands or millions on this case if it was that simple.
There has always been doubt in this case and while evidence is still withheld it will continue and no doubt a fresh application is being prepared for the CCRC
As time goes on the subject of PII will be further scrutenised by the media and I believe evidence will not be hidden away so easily that might give definitive answers saving millions of pounds in applications to the CCRC
With respect, too, Jackie IMO the issue of PII may be a red herring and not some sort of Holy Grail in providing evidence of Jeremy Bamber's innocence . Essex Police, when they finally got their act together , interviewed and took statements from people who for example knew the family, knew Jeremy and Sheila specifically, more distant relatives etc . This material was not used in court, probably because it was peripheral to the main case. In addition they should have things like personal letters from Sheila to relatives which do not help Jeremy's cause because they present a different perspective on Sheila's state of mind in contrast to the picture of demonic psychotic illness favoured by those who argue that she was responsible for the shootings. I know that very sympathetic letters of condolence were sent to Jeremy after the murders offering help etc. These too seem to have disappeared and possibly are held by EP. Some gruesome crime scene photos such as off the twins head gunshot wounds may also have been kept out of the public domain. EP have a duty of care to protect
individuals and their families from the frankly brutal harassment of the media besides other private individuals with an interest in the case who are able to use the various web modes to broadcast their opinions without much fear of prosecution or civil action for defamation.
Even the children of family members who did provide evidence have been subject to quite intolerable pressures.
However, I do realise that PII witheld material does provide ammunition for conspiracy theorists. Maybe it would be better if the CCRC was more explicit about their awareness of PII documentation and its relevance to their deliberations and likewise could explain in more detail what is being witheld and why. At a personal level, I can tell you that my family's privacy could be at risk simply because a late relative
( not directly related to the Bambers ) made a statement as part of EP's wider investigation . I am pretty sure that I know the names of others in a similiar position.
What an excellent post Dillon. Who are you? especially 'However, I do realise that PII witheld material does provide ammunition for conspiracy theorists. Maybe it would be better if the CCRC was more explicit about their awareness of PII documentation and its relevance to their deliberations and likewise could explain in more detail what is being witheld and why. At a personal level, I can tell you that my family's privacy could be at risk simply because a late relative
( not directly related to the Bambers ) made a statement as part of EP's wider investigation . I am pretty sure that I know the names of others in a similiar position.'
I suppose for me in every conviction that is successfully overturned there has often been witheld evidence that usually comes to light in a large majority of those cases and witheld for no good reason. It would be good to know the percentage of miscarriage of justice cases in the last ten years where witheld evidence sent an innocent man to prison. Maybe if that percentage were highlighted it could bring about a change
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Can I ask a couple of questions please?
The marks on the area around the agar, I think they say the 'mantle' but I class a mantle piece as a sideboard and not the bit round a fire and a shelf above a fire.
From the crime scene photo's i cannot see the alleged scratches/marks/bullet marks made in a fight/scuffle/altercation, so when were they made?
Why did the relative's suspect Jeremy of the murders and why?
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Can I ask a couple of questions please?
The marks on the area around the agar, I think they say the 'mantle' but I class a mantle piece as a sideboard and not the bit round a fire and a shelf above a fire.
From the crime scene photo's i cannot see the alleged scratches/marks/bullet marks made in a fight/scuffle/altercation, so when were they made?
Why did the relative's suspect Jeremy of the murders and why?
They are under the shelf on which the spice rack and the torch etc are sitting.
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Can I ask a couple of questions please?
The marks on the area around the agar, I think they say the 'mantle' but I class a mantle piece as a sideboard and not the bit round a fire and a shelf above a fire.
From the crime scene photo's i cannot see the alleged scratches/marks/bullet marks made in a fight/scuffle/altercation, so when were they made?
Why did the relative's suspect Jeremy of the murders and why?
If Jeremy Bamber was holding the rifle with say his left hand gripping the stock and his right hand holding it midway up and attempting to batter Nevill with it, or if they were wrestling for control of it (assuming that Nevill was still capable of providing any resistance) then the moderator end could have come into contact with the underside of the mantleshelf creating the marks before it was pulled away from it. (you might have seen my theory of how the scratches could have been created in the Marks under the Mantleshelf thread)
The rifle with moderator fitted is quite long and it would have been difficult to control the end of it.... the lampshade could have been shattered by the end in a similar way.
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Simply because they knew from the outset (a gut instinct if you like) that Sheila was not capable of carrying it out... her slight frame, her inability to use and load a rifle, her sedated state caused by the monthly Haloperidol injections.
When the family (Ann Eaton, David Boutflour, Colin Caffell) and Julie Mugford were gathered together at Bourtree Cottage to make statements they overheard some of the things that Jeremy Bamber had said to the police and things that he told them directly didn't ring true. (leaving the rifle out overnight when there were two six year old boys present, for example)
It was only through the persistence of Robert Boutflour (Bobby) hounding the police that the course of the investigation took a different turn.
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It could also be argued the family took a risk by accusing Jeremy of having a financial motive for the murders. It could be argued that they also had a financial motive.
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Can I ask a couple of questions please?
The marks on the area around the agar, I think they say the 'mantle' but I class a mantle piece as a sideboard and not the bit round a fire and a shelf above a fire.
From the crime scene photo's i cannot see the alleged scratches/marks/bullet marks made in a fight/scuffle/altercation, so when were they made?
Why did the relative's suspect Jeremy of the murders and why?
If Jeremy Bamber was holding the rifle with say his left hand gripping the stock and his right hand holding it midway up and attempting to batter Nevill with it, or if they were wrestling for control of it (assuming that Nevill was still capable of providing any resistance) then the moderator end could have come into contact with the underside of the mantleshelf creating the marks before it was pulled away from it. (you might have seen my theory of how the scratches could have been created in the Marks under the Mantleshelf thread)
The rifle with moderator fitted is quite long and it would have been difficult to control the end of it.... the lampshade could have been shattered by the end in a similar way.
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Simply because they knew from the outset (a gut instinct if you like) that Sheila was not capable of carrying it out... her slight frame, her inability to use and load a rifle, her sedated state caused by the monthly Haloperidol injections.
When the family (Ann Eaton, David Boutflour, Colin Caffell) and Julie Mugford were gathered together at Bourtree Cottage to make statements they overheard some of the things that Jeremy Bamber had said to the police and things that he told them directly didn't ring true. (leaving the rifle out overnight when there were two six year old boys present, for example)
It was only through the persistence of Robert Boutflour (Bobby) hounding the police that the course of the investigation took a different turn.
Members of the family who had known Sheila, warts and all, since early childhood and knew of her positive state of mind at the time of her visit to WHF with the twins did not beleive that she could have been responsible. When more of the facts in the case became available, including the brutal battering of Nevill and multiple, accurate shots with a .22 , then this already strong belief was reinforced. Many members of the extended family did not know Jeremy well . He had been away a lot and did not mix much with the farming community.
However, people who did know Jeremy, were aware that he is very devious and an accomplished liar. In another life he could have been a successful con man. He has continued to con people whilst in prison and works on the principle that if you repeat a lie often enough, for example in relation to the severity of Sheila's mental health problems, then people will begin to beleive you. Sadly, there would seem to be a small group of probably well meaning and sincere individuals who have and continue to be taken in by his deception. Some of them have wasted an awful lot of time and energy on his cause. Some appear to have been simply dumped when they no longer appear useful to him. Jeremy can appear to be a very charming and attractive man when it suits him with the veneer of articulate, confident politesse which is a feature of being a product of private boarding education.
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Great post Dillon, I can imagine Jeremy telling a lie and proving it and using the mantra that if you say something for long enough people will believe it too.
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Jeremy's story about using the rifle the previous evening was invented as was the tale he concocted about leaving the rifle on the settle with the disengage magazine lying nearby. Just think about it for a moment.
The only reason Jeremy told police this was to account for his fresh prints being on the rifle and the magazine. As for leaving the rifle on the settle when two young boys were visiting, this was a non starter. Even if he had done such a thing then Nevill or June would have put the rifle and the magazine away out of the boys sight.
The police in initially falling for this story just showed how naïve they were back in 1985. Taff Jones was an idiot and clearly was removed from the case because of incompetence.
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Re this
However, people who did know Jeremy, were aware that he is very devious and an accomplished liar. In another life he could have been a successful con man. He has continued to con people whilst in prison and works on the principle that if you repeat a lie often enough, for example in relation to the severity of Sheila's mental health problems, then people will begin to beleive you. Sadly, there would seem to be a small group of probably well meaning and sincere individuals who have and continue to be taken in by his deception. Some of them have wasted an awful lot of time and energy on his cause. Some appear to have been simply dumped when they no longer appear useful to him. Jeremy can appear to be a very charming and attractive man when it suits him with the veneer of articulate, confident politesse which is a feature of being a product of private boarding education.
I have never found most of the above to be true from my conversations and letters with Jeremy, I find him very naive and appears to be completely led by the campaign team. I don't think he is aware of half of the stuff that is written and put on the web about him and some of the stuff is rubbish.
The official campaign team keep posting about an interview being carried out with him so that would be an ideal time to put all the searching questions to him.
If the campaign team had been more open to mark Williams Thomas when he was making his documentary they might have had some input instead of throwing their toys out of the pram because they were not the first to know about it I was.
Instead of heavily criticising Mark they could do with his help right now.
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So who are these shadowy nameless characters you refer to as a Campaign Team Jackie?
I believe Daniele Hammond is one and a Lorna Lake although the latter sound quite fake?
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So who are these shadowy nameless characters you refer to as a Campaign Team Jackie?
I believe Daniele Hammond is one and a Lorna Lake although the latter sound quite fake?
To be honest Dave I don't think Jack knows who runs the campaign any more. 8)--))
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Re this
However, people who did know Jeremy, were aware that he is very devious and an accomplished liar. In another life he could have been a successful con man. He has continued to con people whilst in prison and works on the principle that if you repeat a lie often enough, for example in relation to the severity of Sheila's mental health problems, then people will begin to beleive you. Sadly, there would seem to be a small group of probably well meaning and sincere individuals who have and continue to be taken in by his deception. Some of them have wasted an awful lot of time and energy on his cause. Some appear to have been simply dumped when they no longer appear useful to him. Jeremy can appear to be a very charming and attractive man when it suits him with the veneer of articulate, confident politesse which is a feature of being a product of private boarding education.
I have never found most of the above to be true from my conversations and letters with Jeremy, I find him very naive and appears to be completely led by the campaign team. I don't think he is aware of half of the stuff that is written and put on the web about him and some of the stuff is rubbish.
The official campaign team keep posting about an interview being carried out with him so that would be an ideal time to put all the searching questions to him.
If the campaign team had been more open to mark Williams Thomas when he was making his documentary they might have had some input instead of throwing their toys out of the pram because they were not the first to know about it I was.
Instead of heavily criticising Mark they could do with his help right now.
Jackie, this forum allows members to express their own views and we can disagree about Bamber's credibility as long as we do so with respect to each other, as you have. I agree that he probably has a mixed up perspective on what is said about him as I understand that he does not have direct access to the internet.
IMO an interview however searching with him would be fruitless as I am convinced from his contradictory statements over the years and from other information from various sources ( not the reviled members of the family ) that he is a competent liar . For obvious reasons, these sources have to kept confidential to protect the privacy of the individuals concerned so I suppose can be written off as hearsay etc if you like. They do come from sources which are in no way connected to each other ( eg Prison Service ). As, fortunately, Guantanamo type questioning techniques are not permitted here any ordinary interview is unlikely to get this man to reveal the truth about what went on at WHF on the night of the murders.
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I have spoken to several former prisoners who shared space with Jeremy at various prisons and without exception they all say GUILTY AS HELL. Their words, not mine!
Most also referred to his cocky and arrogant behaviour which really doesn't go down too well in such an environment. He seemingly keeps a small group of trusted friends around him.
Some of these guys are now authors in their own right and quite capable of seeing through the spin. They told me that Jeremy believes his own lies now so really any interview with him now would be worthless as far as events which took place at the farm are concerned.
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So who are these shadowy nameless characters you refer to as a Campaign Team Jackie?
I believe Daniele Hammond is one and a Lorna Lake although the latter sound quite fake?
Yes, who ARE the campaign team? And what do they actually do? Why aren't they stripping off and chaining themselves to the Houses of Parliament?
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So who are these shadowy nameless characters you refer to as a Campaign Team Jackie?
I believe Daniele Hammond is one and a Lorna Lake although the latter sound quite fake?
Yes, who ARE the campaign team? And what do they actually do? Why aren't they stripping off and chaining themselves to the Houses of Parliament?
Don't be silly, Shona. Even the beloved Jeremy is not worth get frost bitten boobs or balls for .... I think . Or maybe, dear old Lookout wouldn't mind sacrificing her probably rather dangly and shriveled bits for the cause. Or the great Michael Teskowski ( champion burglar emeritus ) might be prepared to display his no doubt ample man boobs and spreading tum to the bitter elements but then he is a busy guy travelling here there and everywhere interviewing " informants " . Or poor Lugg whose naked blue bod would scare a few tourists off .
I expect the moderators will trash this post as being not in the spirit of the truce. Then NGB ... will probably arrive by helicopter to join the great protest. Jeremy ... well I guess another day of watching tele, a stint in the gym, a bit in the braille workshop, a spliff or two and some more plotting before bedtime over the cocoa as to how to shaft those relatives etc who had the sheer impudence to thwart the big plan .
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So who are these shadowy nameless characters you refer to as a Campaign Team Jackie?
I believe Daniele Hammond is one and a Lorna Lake although the latter sound quite fake?
Yes, who ARE the campaign team? And what do they actually do? Why aren't they stripping off and chaining themselves to the Houses of Parliament?
Don't be silly, Shona. Even the beloved Jeremy is not worth get frost bitten boobs or balls for .... I think . Or maybe, dear old Lookout wouldn't mind sacrificing her probably rather dangly and shriveled bits for the cause. Or the great Michael Teskowski ( champion burglar emeritus ) might be prepared to display his no doubt ample man boobs and spreading tum to the bitter elements but then he is a busy guy travelling here there and everywhere interviewing " informants " . Or poor Lugg whose naked blue bod would scare a few tourists off .
I expect the moderators will trash this post as being not in the spirit of the truce. Then NGB ... will probably arrive by helicopter to join the great protest. Jeremy ... well I guess another day of watching tele, a stint in the gym, a bit in the braille workshop, a spliff or two and some more plotting before bedtime over the cocoa as to how to shaft those relatives etc who had the sheer impudence to thwart the big plan .
I'm at a stage in my life when imagining a naked Lugg might possibly tip me into the menopause. If so many people feel so incredibly strongly that Bamber is innocent, why do they just chunter among themselves and try to convince each other that he was a twinkly-eyed scamp? They have so much evidence (yes, you, Mike. You promised if the last CCRC thing failed, you'd bring out your twin guns of an image of Sheila and the phone logs) that surely he must be just a heartbeat away from release. After 27 long, fruitless years. Today, I've read that Sheila burnt Ralph's neck with the gun as he went downstairs (?), the shots to the family were random (the boys?) and, to top it all, why are there photos of Bamber at the funeral? Yes, there were, Luggy who pretended that you had no knowledge of the Bamber case (you utter plum), but BG was talking about the memorial service, that Bamber couldn't be ar$ed to attend. Seriously. Bamber loved/loves his dad so much, he walks with him every day. Couldn't be f..ked to attend his church service, though. Probably getting all the goodies valued.
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Nice one Shona. My understanding is that the shots were closely grouped and only one missed. There is no way on earth that Sheila could have done this. I have heard that Bamber was only good at two things when he was at his public school, Greshams. Lying and shooting.
Bamber's few remaining supporters need to get real and to look at the fundamentals of the evidence in this case objectively . All this prattling on about burn marks etc is irrelevant . He has had a very good run for his money with endless reconsideration of his case and is as guilty as hell.
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Nice one Shona. My understanding is that the shots were closely grouped and only one missed. There is no way on earth that Sheila could have done this. I have heard that Bamber was only good at two things when he was at his public school, Greshams. Lying and shooting.
Bamber's few remaining supporters need to get real and to look at the fundamentals of the evidence in this case objectively . All this prattling on about burn marks etc is irrelevant . He has had a very good run for his money with endless reconsideration of his case and is as guilty as hell.
Bamber's only had such a good run for his money because a handful of frustrated women (blimey, Lugg, you really do get everywhere, don't you? Have you ever thought of applying to B and Q? Truce Schmuce) think that he's hot. If he looked like poor Michael Stone, who DOES appear to be innocent, Bamber wouldn't get a look-in. And, yes. Bamber is as guilty as hell. That's why, after 27 years and loads of fuss, he's still in the nick.
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I read an interesting comment recently made by someone on the blue forum complaining about all of us who believe Jerry to be guilty? 8)-)))
Seemingly there is no point in what we do as Jerry has been found guilty. Don't they realise that its more to do with countering their noxious propaganda than it is proving guilt all over again. That said, we are perfectly entitled to challenge their views and in doing so repeat the known facts and the evidence.
It must be frustrating for them (poor dears) to be challenged on every single argument every single day of the week. @)(++(*