Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on May 24, 2014, 07:59:57 PM
Title: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 24, 2014, 07:59:57 PM
Yes Gerry left through the patio door so it is now unlocked when he left so Matt or Kate could enter. He had to use a key to get in.
"at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant." (4 May)
No mention about the door being moved. Everything changes a week later.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2014, 08:03:16 PM
Yes Gerry left through the patio door so it is now unlocked when he left so Matt or Kate could enter. He had to use a key to get in.
"at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant." (4 May)
No mention about the door being moved.
so on this occasion Gerry entered through the locked front door
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 24, 2014, 08:06:57 PM
so on this occasion Gerry entered through the locked front door
Yes so the apartment had to be locked when they left at 8:30. When Gerry left after his check the patio door was now unlocked so Matt could enter at 9:30.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 24, 2014, 08:07:57 PM
Yes Gerry left through the patio door so it is now unlocked when he left so Matt or Kate could enter. He had to use a key to get in.
"at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant." (4 May)
No mention about the door being moved.
Gerry McCann (statement, 10 May 2007)
‘He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange.'
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2014, 08:09:35 PM
Yes so the apartment had to be locked when they left at 8:30. When Gerry left after his check the patio door was now unlocked so Matt could enter at 9:30.
the front door onto the street was locked but the patio door was closed but not locked
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 24, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
It has yet to be proved whether the doors were open or closed.
Merely because someone states a door was unlocked, does not make it true.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 24, 2014, 08:21:15 PM
IMO the person was inside the apartment from around 10 to 9 until after M Oldfield's visit. The statements mentioning the doors would confirm this..
So you believe the change in statements. A key to not using a key so the alleged abductor can now enter with no trouble and be seen by Tanner. Why? That's very shabby detective work. Are you that easily manipulated?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 25, 2014, 10:45:13 AM
So you believe the change in statements. A key to not using a key so the alleged abductor can now enter with no trouble and be seen by Tanner. Why? That's very shabby detective work. Are you that easily manipulated?
He reckons he's a crime writer dont you know.
More like jackanory.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2014, 10:59:20 AM
So you believe the change in statements. A key to not using a key so the alleged abductor can now enter with no trouble and be seen by Tanner. Why? That's very shabby detective work. Are you that easily manipulated?
I still think you are wrong...Gerry used a key to enter via the locked front door...there is no change in satements..no lies
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 11:05:57 AM
This is what I posted... I still think you are wrong...Gerry used a key to enter via the locked front door...there is no change in satements..no lies
As you will see it is not a question...your post is a question so you are the one asking stupid questions..
He entered the locked front door because that was the one that was closest to him
How was that door closest coming from the tapas bar? That's much further away. You had to walk all the way round and through the car park. Unlocked patio door straight up steps and in.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2014, 11:23:36 AM
How was that door closest coming from the tapas bar? That's much further away. You had to walk all the way round and through the car park. Unlocked patio door straight up steps and in.
do you have a link to a map
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 11:29:03 AM
(http://i55.tinypic.com/28lrqtu.jpg)
Red arrow line shows the route to door with key to enter. Blue line to unlocked patio door.
are you sure the re is no access to the front door simply by walking a further 20 feet past the steps and turning left directly at the end of the building
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 11:38:42 AM
No it's a wall you can't turn in there. The red arrow line is the route you have to take unless you use the pathway.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: peter claridge on May 25, 2014, 12:16:18 PM
Strange is it not that the Oldfields and Tanner/O'Brien didn't also make use of their patio doors to check on their offspring?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 25, 2014, 12:39:04 PM
So Amaral immediately assumes that Gerry was lying, rather than even questioning whether there could have been any confusion in what Gerry was actually asked, what he said, what the interpreter understood and relayed, and what the PJ officer actually wrote down?
On another (old) thread, we established that the UK (and no doubt other countries) don't call for professional interpreters in the immediate aftermath of a drama, but then I'm not aware that possible confusion wouldn't be taken into account.
Perhaps it depends on how the police perceive their role...
A solution for the future may be to record the interviews requiring an interpreter.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: peter claridge on May 25, 2014, 01:02:58 PM
So Amaral immediately assumes that Gerry was lying, rather than even questioning whether there could have been any confusion in what Gerry was actually asked, what he said, what the interpreter understood and relayed, and what the PJ officer actually wrote down?
On another (old) thread, we established that the UK (and no doubt other countries) don't call for professional interpreters in the immediate aftermath of a drama, but then I'm not aware that possible confusion wouldn't be taken into account.
Perhaps it depends on how the police perceive their role...
A solution for the future may be to record the interviews requiring an interpreter.
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 01:12:01 PM
Gonçalo Amaral: Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
Gonçalo Amaral: Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
Do you have anything to support this statement...apart from amaral
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2014, 01:16:07 PM
Gonçalo Amaral: Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
here was a documentary with three british experts which showed a photograph of fingerprints on the outside of the shutters...these fingerprints have never been identified. you are putting all your faith in amaral who was sacked and is now thought to have been completely wrong
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Fern on May 25, 2014, 01:22:54 PM
Gonçalo Amaral: Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
There were 4 keys for 5A front door, one in reception, one for cleaners/maintenance and 2 for occupants, therefore it's quite possible that one key was left inside apartment.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2014, 01:23:35 PM
I'm putting my faith in SY...amaral is contradicted by the archiving which said there was no evidence of a crime against the mccanns
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 01:28:50 PM
So, in short we are unable to examine what possible motivation there may have been for staging an abduction by opening a window and claiming it had been "jemmied" whilst simultaneously trying to convince the world that the abductor entered via the unlocked patio doors...?
First statements locked key to enter. Second statement unlocked patio door to enter. Why? It certainly sets up the abductor to enter and move the door which is first mentioned in the 2nd statement. Did they know Tanner had seen that man before the window was opened. No of course that hadn't. Dianne Webster was checking the shutters for Kate straight after the alarm has been raised so they can't change it. They were ringing family members about the jemmied shutters before they knew about the man Tanner saw. Tannerman changed everything and they will never drop him as being the abductor. Look at their website.
First statements locked key to enter. Second statement unlocked patio door to enter. Why? It certainly sets up the abductor to enter and move the door which is first mentioned in the 2nd statement. Did they know Tanner had seen that man before the window was opened. No of course that hadn't. Dianne Webster was checking the shutters for Kate straight after the alarm has been raised so they can't change it. They were ringing family members about the jemmied shutters before they knew about the man Tanner saw. Tannerman changed everything and they will never drop him as being the abductor.
Yup, they tailored their evidence to fit in with Bundleman.
1st statement, nothing about the door, week later & he's noticed whilst entering the apartment that the door had moved, which he thought strange.
He's got London Bridge up for sale at a knock down price n'all.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 25, 2014, 01:41:59 PM
First statements locked key to enter. Second statement unlocked patio door to enter. Why? It certainly sets up the abductor to enter and move the door which is first mentioned in the 2nd statement. Did they know Tanner had seen that man before the window was opened. No of course that hadn't. Dianne Webster was checking the shutters for Kate straight after the alarm has been raised so they can't change it. They were ringing family members about the jemmied shutters before they knew about the man Tanner saw. Tannerman changed everything and they will never drop him as being the abductor. Look at their website.
No, but they knew JT had seen the man before they gave any statement at all. Yet, you believe they only concocted the patio door entry story at the second statement. And - isn't it ironic? Here is a doubter who obviously believes JT DID see a man at the time she said she did, while elsewhere other doubters have it that JT may have seen him on a different day or at a different time altogether, or maybe never actually saw him at all! None of it really makes any sense does it? Unless you consider that actually an abductor DID take Madeleine during the window of opportunity that SY have stated they have identified by their forensic examination of the timeline.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 04:16:49 PM
here was a documentary with three british experts which showed a photograph of fingerprints on the outside of the shutters...these fingerprints have never been identified. you are putting all your faith in amaral who was sacked and is now thought to have been completely wrong
IIRC those gentlemen also referred to the patio door as the front door and the carpark door as the back door.
All in all there appears to have been an awful lot of confusion during those first interviews about which door was which with some people referring to the patio door as the back door and other calling it the front door. IMO this is where the misunderstanding arose in Gerry's first statement - which he corrected a few days later.
A UK police officer refers to the confusion over the doors in JT's rogatory statement.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: peter claridge on May 25, 2014, 04:28:04 PM
IIRC those gentlemen also referred to the patio door as the front door and the carpark door as the back door.
All in all there appears to have been an awful lot of confusion during those first interviews about which door was which with some people referring to the patio door as the back door and other calling it the front door. IMO this is where the misunderstanding arose in Gerry's first statement - which he corrected a few days later.
A UK police officer refers to the confusion over the doors in JT's rogatory statement.
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 25, 2014, 04:42:31 PM
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
I'm not sure what the issue is.
Did Kate ever state that the veranda door was locked that night?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 05:04:41 PM
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
IMO The fact that there is no 'side door' proves the interpreter and the PJ officer had no knowledge of the layout of the apartment during that first interview.
Also it's a summarised condensed version of what Gerry said based on the PJ's officer's interpretation of which door was which. I am certain that with the added complication of the language barrier - somewhere during that first interview there was a misunderstanding about which door Gerry was talking about which carried on throughout the rest of the interview. And which the PJ officer also wrongly related to Kate's entry. If there was a verbatim statement I reckon it would easy to see how and where that confusion first arose.
It's clear to me that if the PJ officer did have knowledge of the layout of 5A - and knowing that MO had entered through the unlocked patio door then he would most certainly have asked Gerry why on earth he would take the long way round - as that makes no sense, particularly if he needed the loo. It would have been such an obvious question to ask imo. If he had asked that question at that point I think the misunderstanding would have been cleared up there and then.
IMO There would have been no typed statement in English for Gerry to read over at that point, and if one was later given to him then IMO that is when he would see the errors and was able to correct them. Which he did.
Summaries of statements are not a complete record of everything which was said as IIRC the conversation Gerry must have had with the PJ over that error is not recorded at all - just the fact that he had changed his statement. The reasons for why he did that are not mentioned.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: peter claridge on May 25, 2014, 05:06:30 PM
IIRC those gentlemen also referred to the patio door as the front door and the carpark door as the back door.
All in all there appears to have been an awful lot of confusion during those first interviews about which door was which with some people referring to the patio door as the back door and other calling it the front door. IMO this is where the misunderstanding arose in Gerry's first statement - which he corrected a few days later.
A UK police officer refers to the confusion over the doors in JT's rogatory statement.
No confusion Benice imo as the patio door did not have a key nor could it be opened from the outside. When Gerry spoke of accessing the apartment using a key he was referring to the front door located on the north side of the premises. He later changed this to using the unlocked patio door on the south side. Question will always be why did he make such a transparent error?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
But Gerry said he used his key ... there is no key to the patio door
He could only have been talking about the front door
No misunderstanding on that point
As the summary was not written by Gerry then I think it is possible that the PJ officer used the reference to a key - as a personal means to identify (in the report) which door Gerry was talking about - but he'd got the wrong door.
If there was anything suspicious going on - then I think Gerry's reasons for changing the part of his statement about the doors would have been recorded in detail in his second statement.
There is no doubt that there was much confusion about which doors people were talking about in those first interviews and not just with Gerry.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 25, 2014, 05:33:52 PM
As the summary was not written by Gerry then I think it is possible that the PJ officer used the reference to a key - as a personal means to identify (in the report) which door Gerry was talking about - but he'd got the wrong door.
If there was anything suspicious going on - then I think Gerry's reasons for changing the part of his statement about the doors would have been recorded in detail in his second statement.
There is no doubt that there was much confusion about which doors people were talking about in those first interviews and not just with Gerry.
So why did Gerry refer to the error in the Ch4 documentary if it wasn't his error in the first place? 8(0(*
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 05:35:09 PM
No confusion Benice imo as the patio door did not have a key nor could it be opened from the outside. When Gerry spoke of accessing the apartment using a key he was referring to the front door located on the north side of the premises. He later changed this to using the unlocked ratio door on the south side. Question will always be why did he make such a transparent error?
So why isn't his explanation why he changed his statement recorded anywhere?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 25, 2014, 05:53:20 PM
Neither he, nor Kate have ever made mention of it as far as I am aware, and Kate makes no mention of it in her book
Why is that ?
I mean if there is an 'explanation' for that glaring difference in their statements why have the McCanns never clarified it ?
Why would they need to explain anything to anyone? The confusion had been cleared up with the PJ during the 2nd interview as far as they knew. That's all that mattered. The fact that the conversation which must have taken place over that change of statement during the second interview was not included in any report - can only mean it wasn't considered necessary. The idea that Gerry would not give an explanation - or that the PJ wouldn't require one is unrealistic IMO.
Gerry knew that Kate would say she came in via the unlocked patio door and he had already said Matt had, so what possible reason would he have to say he came in via the carpark door when he knew the patio door was unlocked. What did he have to gain by telling such a ridiculous lie - for which he could have no credible explanation?
Gerry: I'll lie and tell them Kate and I came in through the front door because.....................................what?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 25, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Why would they need to explain anything to anyone? The confusion had been cleared up with the PJ during the 2nd interview as far as they knew. That's all that mattered. The fact that the conversation which must have taken place over that change of statement during the second interview was not included in any report - can only mean it wasn't considered necessary. The idea that Gerry would not give an explanation - or that the PJ wouldn't require one is unrealistic IMO.
Gerry knew that Kate would say she came in via the unlocked patio door and he had already said Matt had, so what possible reason would he have to say he came in via the carpark door when he knew the patio door was unlocked. What did he have to gain by telling such a ridiculous lie - for which he could have no credible explanation?
Gerry: I'll lie and tell them Kate and I came in through the front door because.....................................what?
More shabby detective work Benice. There's only one reason for using a key (two actually if it was nearest entrance). Kate didn't need to use the key 8)-)))
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. (KM 1st Statement 4 May)
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
Sorry, I meant to say he reconstructs the event and enters via the locked front door using a KEY (not a key card)
See from 7.00
'About 3 or 4 minutes later she was taken' i.e. Tannerman. And he's now outside talking on the other side of the road away from where a crime is taking place.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 07:01:06 PM
More shabby detective work Benice. There's only one reason (two actually if it was nearest entrance) for using a key. Kate didn't need to use the key 8)-)))
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. (KM 1st Statement 4 May)
I'm afraid you've lost me Pathfinder - what has the above quote got to do with Gerry apparently deciding to lie by saying he and Kate came in through the carpark door when he had already acknowledged that the patio door was unlocked?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 25, 2014, 07:14:06 PM
I'm afraid you've lost me Pathfinder - what has the above quote got to do with Gerry apparently deciding to lie by saying he and Kate came in through the carpark door when he had already acknowledged that the patio door was unlocked?
We don't know if Gerry .... when he said, in his first statement to the police, that he had made his 9.05pm check via the front door, using his key ... as far as we know he might have done just that
What we do know, though, is that when he later changed his story and said he made his check via the unlocked patio door, a major contradiction was presented
The fact is, one of those statements has to be false
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 07:24:09 PM
We don't know if Gerry .... when he said, in his first statement to the police, that he had made his 9.05pm check via the front door, using his key ... as far as we know he might have done just that
What we do know, though, is that when he later changed his story and said he made his check via the unlocked patio door, a major contradiction was presented
The fact is, one of those statements has to be false
Well I'm afraid until someone can come up with a credible reason why Gerry would inexplicably walk past a door a few feet away and decide to take the much longer route to go in by the front door - I will continue to believe that a misunderstanding occurred during that very first interview - and that he and the PJ officer were at cross purposes over which door was which - and that the misunderstanding was sorted out at the 2nd interview.
Why would he ... about it ? What did he have to gain?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 07:33:48 PM
Well I'm afraid until someone can come up with a credible reason why Gerry would inexplicably walk past a door a few feet away and decide to take the much longer route to go in by the front door - I will continue to believe that a misunderstanding occurred during that very first interview - and that he and the PJ officer were at cross purposes over which door was which - and that the misunderstanding was sorted out at the 2nd interview.
Why would he ... about it ? What did he have to gain?
Are you for real? There's two possibilities I can think of:
1. The apartment was locked including the patio door when he entered using the key.
2. He was coming back from the ............ and that was now the nearest entrance.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 07:40:31 PM
Sorry, I meant to say he reconstructs the event and enters via the locked front door using a KEY (not a key card)
See from 7.00
He's not reconstructing his 9.05 check. He's entering 5A for the first time since they left Portugal. It's only when he is inside that he shows us a part of what he did during that check - which was the last time he saw his beloved daughter.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 25, 2014, 07:54:13 PM
Are you for real? There's two possibilities I can think of:
1. The apartment was locked including the patio door when he entered using the key.
2. He was coming back from the ............. and that was now the nearest entrance.
Ahh I see it all now. This is an alternative theory to the abduction one? Sorry but I've never seen a shred of evidence to believe that Madeleine was not abducted. And I certainly don't believe that her parents or any of their friends are the insane raving psychopaths which IMO they would all have to be - to be capable of disposing of a dead little girl's body - as if it was really nothing too serious and so they didn't have to think twice about doing it. Not a chance IMO.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 25, 2014, 08:03:53 PM
Ahh I see it all now. This is an alternative theory to the abduction one? Sorry but I've never seen a shred of evidence to believe that Madeleine was not abducted. And I certainly don't believe that her parents or any of their friends are the insane raving psychopaths which IMO they would all have to be - to be capable of disposing of a dead little girl's body - as if it was really nothing too serious and so they didn't have to think twice about doing it. Not a chance IMO.
How about one shred of evidence she was abducted ?
Now there would be a novelty.
Doctors have been known to commit crimes .
..........and you don't have to be a psychopath to commit a crime.
It is interesting to observe though the old 'psychopath' ploy emerging once again.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 25, 2014, 09:04:36 PM
Maybe he was right the first time and decided to use the front entrance to save having to open and close two gates and a most likely creaky patio door. Sliding patio doors are renowned for their noise as evidenced again by Mrs Fenn's observations.
He did say in the video that they used the front door then stopped suggesting that it somehow disturbed the children.
Wasn't it also the case that Gerry was in the habit of entering the apartment by the front door when they got home after the days activities whilst Kate would go up to the patio door to be let in. I assume they each carried a twin and Maddie walked.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2014, 09:39:19 PM
He said he did his first visual check of the week in that doc. Another routine change. He wouldn't have to open the door to do a visual check on the kids if it was always half-open like Matt found it 8)-))) It's very interesting that he didn't mention the door being half-open and strange in his first statement on his check.
"at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment."
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 26, 2014, 09:24:28 AM
Perhaps that is because you blatantly disregard other evidence when it is presented to you.
Two differing statements by Gerry about gaining entry to the apartment which should begin to raise doubts about the truthfulness of Gerry's statements. Instead you turn a blind eye and fall back on your usual BS of blaming the interpreter, blaming the PJ, in fact blaming anybody but your darling Gerry.
You are wrong Benice. The statements are enough proof to back this claim. Anything else on your part is nothing more than wishful thinking.
What difference does it make which door Gerry used, or when?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2014, 09:50:59 AM
Perhaps that is because you blatantly disregard other evidence when it is presented to you.
Two differing statements by Gerry about gaining entry to the apartment which should begin to raise doubts about the truthfulness of Gerry's statements. Instead you turn a blind eye and fall back on your usual BS of blaming the interpreter, blaming the PJ, in fact blaming anybody but your darling Gerry.
You are wrong Benice. The statements are enough proof to back this claim. Anything else on your part is nothing more than wishful thinking.
I haven't blamed anyone for misunderstandings which may have occurred during that first interview. It was the first time for all concerned. Gerry had not just come out of the worst nightmare to be suffered by any parent - he was still descending into it and would be physically and mentally exhausted and hoping against hope that any minute there would be news of Madeleine. There would be long gaps whilst the interpretor translated and retranslated and while the officer typed out the answers. Do you think Gerry was sitting there calmly or would his thoughts be all over the place?
It was the first introduction to the case for the interpretor and the PJ officer conducting the interview. The language barrier would be great disadvantage to all concerned IMO - even more so if they had no idea of the layout of 5A at that point.
No-one is to blame - but those particular circumstances were ripe for mistakes to have happened.
Without knowing the reasons given by Gerry for correcting that first statement it is not possible IMO to come to the conclusion that he lied. If this was such a big deal - then why is there no mention of the reasons he gave in his second interview. Surely they would have been recorded in detail if there was any suspicion at that time that he had lied in his first interview?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 26, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
The only known evidence is that Gerry changed his first statement and we have not been given any details as to why. Without that evidence in the files - it's not possible for us to know enough to claim Gerry lied. That's just plain common sense.
A view of the the verbatim notes takes by the PJ officer (at both interviews) - who I presume then went on to make a condensed summary from them would probably have given us the answer. We have not been privy to those notes, but maybe SY have.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
The only known evidence is that Gerry changed his first statement and we have not been given any details as to why. Without that evidence in the files - it's not possible for us to know enough to claim Gerry lied. That's just plain common sense.
A view of the the verbatim notes takes by the PJ officer (at both interviews) - who I presume then went on to make a condensed summary from them would probably have given us the answer. We have not been privy to those notes, but maybe SY have.
"Verbatim" notes? Someone very probably made notes, possibly both the interpreter and the police officer as scribbles on paper. The 4 May interviews were just to understand the basic situation and get the ball rolling in an emergency situation and in chaotic circumstances.
I have never understood why some people, starting with the coordinator, haven't taken context into consideration and decided that someone is necessarily lying when there may simply have been misunderstandings due to pressure, little sleep, inadequate resources, the language barrier and whatever else.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Fern on May 26, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
Maybe he was right the first time and decided to use the front entrance to save having to open and close two gates and a most likely creaky patio door. Sliding patio doors are renowned for their noise as evidenced again by Mrs Fenn's observations.
He did say in the video that they used the front door then stopped suggesting that it somehow disturbed the children.
Wasn't it also the case that Gerry was in the habit of entering the apartment by the front door when they got home after the days activities whilst Kate would go up to the patio door to be let in. I assume they each carried a twin and Maddie walked.
I suspect you are correct.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2014, 04:13:48 PM
Maybe he was right the first time and decided to use the front entrance to save having to open and close two gates and a most likely creaky patio door. Sliding patio doors are renowned for their noise as evidenced again by Mrs Fenn's observations.
He did say in the video that they used the front door then stopped suggesting that it somehow disturbed the children.
Wasn't it also the case that Gerry was in the habit of entering the apartment by the front door when they got home after the days activities whilst Kate would go up to the patio door to be let in. I assume they each carried a twin and Maddie walked.
I had thought about that, but it doesn't seem to make sense. His initial statement also says that Kate had done the same (same phrase), but Kate has never said that. That's one reason why I think the point of entrance in Gerry's initial statement is a misunderstanding.
The main door is right next to the children's bedroom... wouldn't that make more noise than opening a bottom gate and a baby gate with a closed veranda sliding door?
Why wouldn't Matt have been given a key if the front door had been deemed less noisy and was the normal entrance for checking?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2014, 04:29:04 PM
Going to the toilet and speaking to Jez for 3 minutes does not account for the time that he was away. I think 5A was locked for a very good reason at 8:30 and he had to use the key to enter at 9. I'm sure you bright sparks can figure it out.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2014, 04:46:45 PM
That could explain his visit so soon after Matt. He had to go because he had something to do that had to be done before Kate was due to visit at 9.30.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2014, 05:31:53 PM
That could explain his visit so soon after Matt. He had to go because he had something to do that had to be done before Kate was due to visit at 9.30.
Matt thought it was very strange after he had just listened at the window and Gerry does his first visual check the week. Another routine change >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 26, 2014, 09:49:52 PM
Going to the toilet and speaking to Jez for 3 minutes does not account for the time that he was away. I think 5A was locked for a very good reason at 8:30 and he had to use the key to enter at 9. I'm sure you bright sparks can figure it out.
Wasn't Jane Tanner party to a discussion at the tapas to the effect that Gerry was away for so long because he was watching football on TV. Didn't she consider saying as much to him as she passed him in the street while chatting to Jes but thought better of it.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2014, 09:58:45 PM
Wasn't Jane Tanner party to a discussion at the tapas to the effect that Gerry was away for so long because he was watching football on TV. Didn't she consider saying as much to him as she passed him in the street while chatting to Jes but thought better of it.
It looked like Gerry had a rocket up his ass when Jane said that on the doc - Kate said you were watching footy. Did you see how quick he moved and changed subject @)(++(*
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 27, 2014, 08:02:42 AM
It looked like Gerry had a rocket up his ass when Jane said that on the doc - Kate said you were watching footy. Did you see how quick he moved and changed subject @)(++(*
I must have been watching a different doc. They were discussing their differing memories of where Jez and Gerry were standing - so no change of subject . Why on earth would Gerry want to quickly change the subject just because JT said Kate was moaning because she thought he might be watching football? Are we supposed to read something 'suspicious' into that? Why would Gerry not want that fact to be mentioned. I don't get it.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 27, 2014, 08:29:11 AM
I must have been watching a different doc. They were discussing their differing memories of where Jez and Gerry were standing - so no change of subject . Why on earth would Gerry want to quickly change the subject just because JT said Kate was moaning because she thought he might be watching football? Are we supposed to read something 'suspicious' into that? Why would Gerry not want that fact to be mentioned. I don't get it.
Suspicion and a good imagination are key attributes of a good detective.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 27, 2014, 08:53:37 AM
Suspicion and a good imagination are key attributes of a good detective.
By no stretch of the imagination can I work out why Gerry would want to quickly change the subject away from the fact that Kate had said he might be watching the football. So what?
Maybe you can enlighten me?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2014, 11:22:52 AM
By no stretch of the imagination can I work out why Gerry would want to quickly change the subject away from the fact that Kate had said he might be watching the football. So what?
Maybe you can enlighten me?
Maybe you can show me in his truthful and honest statements where he says he was watching the football and that's the reason why he was away for so long from the table?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 27, 2014, 01:11:11 PM
Maybe you can show me in his truthful and honest statements where he says he was watching the football and that's the reason why he was away for so long from the table?
Gerry never said he was watching the football. It was just a joke by the other people at the Tapas Bar.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2014, 01:34:31 PM
Maybe you can show me in his truthful and honest statements where he says he was watching the football and that's the reason why he was away for so long from the table?
He wasn't watching football. He didn't say he was watching football. It was a suggestion made by Kate back at the table for why he was gone longer than usual.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 27, 2014, 03:26:36 PM
He wasn't watching football. He didn't say he was watching football. It was a suggestion made by Kate back at the table for why he was gone longer than usual.
I despair.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Albertini on May 28, 2014, 01:08:32 PM
Gerry McCann Statement 4th May 2007
Quote
Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition
Kate McCann Statement 4th May 2007
Quote
He entered the apartment through a glass sliding door at the side that was always unlocked and once inside, he had not gone into the children's bedroom. He remained at the bedroom door, listening for noise and observing the beds. He went back to the restaurant and said that everything was fine.
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Gerry McCann Statement 10th May 2007
Quote
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
Rachael Oldfield Statement 17th May 2007
Quote
The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 04:01:21 PM
what a garbled mess these twice translated statements are...its such a shame we don't know what they actually said
Of course it is a garbled mess only, when these statements do not support the abduction theory, and show the inconsistences in what the McCanns said. Yup.
If you want to use this argument, you should stop using the excerpts from these statements to support your thesis in the discussions here. You cannot have it both ways.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 04:15:48 PM
Of course it is a garbled mess only, when these statements do not support the abduction theory, and show the inconsistences in what the McCanns said. Yup.
If you want to use this argument, you should stop using the excerpts from these statements to support your thesis in the discussions here. You cannot have it both ways.
I don't use these statements to support anything...as I said it would be very interesting to know what they actually said...I'm sure Gerry didn't say he used his key to enter the club
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 04:33:51 PM
From Rachel's statement: The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Something seems to have got a bit garbled. Kate, Gerry and Matt lifted up the shutters on the patio doors to do their checks on 5A? That seems somewhat unlikely.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 04:37:10 PM
From Rachel's statement: The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Something seems to have got a bit garbled. Kate, Gerry and Matt lifted up the shutters on the patio doors to do their checks on 5A? That seems somewhat unlikely.
That's the point I am making. There is no way shutters were raised and lowered on the patio doors yet posters want to make inferences from these statements...they are not reliable due to translation errors
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
what a garbled mess these twice translated statements are...its such a shame we don't know what they actually said
I am sure that NSY and the Drs McCann have access to professional unbiased translations of the files. They and the PJ will be using those.
Unfortunately, since neither video nor audio recordings were made of the statements taken in Portugal we have to rely on the expertise or not of the individual taking notes to write them up and making the initial translation if such was necessary. Just a nuance or slight misunderstanding can totally change the meaning of a sentence.
Therefore there is room for error which could have been avoided if modern technology had been used.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2014, 05:33:35 PM
I am sure that NSY and the Drs McCann have access to professional unbiased translations of the files. They and the PJ will be using those.
Unfortunately, since neither video nor audio recordings were made of the statements taken in Portugal we have to rely on the expertise or not of the individual taking notes to write them up and making the initial translation if such was necessary. Just a nuance or slight misunderstanding can totally change the meaning of a sentence.
Therefore there is room for error which could have been avoided if modern technology had been used.
They were signed. A key can't be mistranslated because you don't need one to go though an unlocked door 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 28, 2014, 05:35:31 PM
what a garbled mess these twice translated statements are...its such a shame we don't know what they actually said
This note from the translator - would strongly suggest that translating the statements was not exactly a walk in the park.
QUOTE 905 to 917 Witness statement of Matthew David Oldfield 2007.05.10 918-Consent for mouth swab for Matthew David Oldfield TRANSLATION BY ALBYM
04-Processo 04 Page 905 to 917
[M Oldfield's Statement 10th May Again, there were several omissions from, and errors in, the original Portuguese. I corrected those that I found. Also, much of the Portuguese statement is written with a convoluted 'future + past' verb construct that attributes an 'uncertainty' to the words, whereas I have translated much of it in a non-literal manner to make it read more definitively. Hence, the reader must understand that neither the Portuguese nor my translation necessarily constitute the exact words spoken by Oldfield. If you read MO's Rogatory Letter testimony you will get a sense of the difficulty the Portuguese interpreter faced when listening to this man.] End quote
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 06:17:49 PM
They were signed. A key can't be mistranslated because you don't need one to go though an unlocked door 8-)(--)
If you are writing up someone's statements based on scribbled notes, it's easy to mistake front (needs key) and back (no key), particularly with the first person to be interviewed that morning.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2014, 06:30:14 PM
If you are writing up someone's statements based on scribbled notes, it's easy to mistake front (needs key) and back (no key), particularly with the first person to be interviewed that morning.
No it isn't. When Gerry said he used a key to enter it is clearly obvious was he meant.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 06:39:35 PM
No it isn't. When Gerry said he used a key to enter it is clearly obvious was he meant.
I disagree, for the reason I stated just above. In addition, there is no description of the layout of the apartment in that first statement, let alone any clarification as to what back and front might mean.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 28, 2014, 06:59:46 PM
Remember there was only one way to open a completely secured apartment when they arrived back from their daily sojourns out and about and this was by opening the front door using a key. It was only when access was gained via the front door that the latch on the patio door could be released from the inside allowing entry.
I can't help wondering however if the apartment was secure as the bedroom window and the shutter appear to have not been locked?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2014, 07:16:54 PM
I disagree, for the reason I stated just above. In addition, there is no description of the layout of the apartment in that first statement, let alone any clarification as to what back and front might mean.
You don't need to see a plan when the key is used. You can't get confused whether it's front back or on the moon. ONE key for ONE door.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: peter claridge on May 28, 2014, 07:18:17 PM
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 07:25:11 PM
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.
which statement is this...Kate always used the patio doors...which did not have a key...and what is meant by the side door...which was never locked but closed...truly garbled
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 07:32:06 PM
You don't need to see a plan when the key is used. You can't get confused whether it's front back or on the moon. ONE key for ONE door.
Yes, one key for one door. I have no problem with that. However, the three people (Gerry, the "interpreter" and the officer) ought to have been clear about which entrance was considered to be the "back" and the "front". There is nothing in that initial statement that would indicate that that was the case.
In future, it would be a good idea to record interviews.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 07:44:58 PM
Yes, one key for one door. I have no problem with that. However, the three people (Gerry, the "interpreter" and the officer) ought to have been clear about which entrance was considered to be the "back" and the "front". There is nothing in that initial statement that would indicate that that was the case.
In future, it would be a good idea to record interviews.
It seems theres a side door now as well
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2014, 07:48:14 PM
Didn't we all have terrible time in the beginning, trying to work out which door was which. Which was front and which was back. There was a lot of confusion.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 28, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
Fortunately only one door required a key and that was the front door located on the north side of the apartment. All other patio doors (lounge and parent's bedroom) located on the south side only locked internally and that was by means of a push button snib.
Consequently, if anyone refers to using a key we know immediately they are referring to the front/north door.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 08:06:39 PM
Fortunately only one door required a key and that was the front door located on the north side of the apartment. All other patio doors (lounge and parent's bedroom) located on the south side only locked internally and that was by means of a push button snib.
Consequently, if anyone refers to using a key we know immediately they are referring to the front/north door.
Now, yes. That may not have been clear to those involved in Gerry's statement on the morning of 4 May.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2014, 08:16:31 PM
From Rachel's statement: The window shutters of the McCann's apartment were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.
Something seems to have got a bit garbled. Kate, Gerry and Matt lifted up the shutters on the patio doors to do their checks on 5A? That seems somewhat unlikely.
Yet previously Rachel had said they entered through the patio door. But in that statement i quoted she said it was locked.
If it was garbled why did they sign it or not seek to have it retracted or changed afterwards?
Why leave it "garbled"?
If i had given such contradictory statements i would have been ensuring i had it corrected through my own lawyers or through the lawyers the McCann's brought in.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2014, 08:49:19 PM
Yet previously Rachel had said they entered through the patio door. But in that statement i quoted she said it was locked.
If it was garbled why did they sign it or not seek to have it retracted or changed afterwards?
Why leave it "garbled"?
If i had given such contradictory statements i would have been ensuring i had it corrected through my own lawyers or through the lawyers the McCann's brought in.
Is there any evidence that he'd been able to read through a translated statement prior to signing the Portuguese version on 4 May?
The issue was clarified in Gerry's 10 May statement.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 08:49:52 PM
Yet previously Rachel had said they entered through the patio door. But in that statement i quoted she said it was locked.
If it was garbled why did they sign it or not seek to have it retracted or changed afterwards?
Why leave it "garbled"?
If i had given such contradictory statements i would have been ensuring i had it corrected through my own lawyers or through the lawyers the McCann's brought in.
these are not even official translations
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Albertini on May 28, 2014, 08:54:53 PM
Is there any evidence that he'd been able to read through a translated statement prior to signing the Portuguese version on 4 May?
The issue was clarified in Gerry's 10 May statement.
What and he signed it without seeing a translation? As a professional doctor he signed something official like a police statement without reading it back or having it read to back to him in his mother tongue? If we are to believe that, and it's stretching credulity to do so, why not put out a correction AFTER the files were released?
Do you think they would have not protested when made arguidos that the evidence in their statements, which formed part of the basis for them being Arguido's, wasn't seen by them in English before they signed it?
Are we also expected to believe that their lawyer under that phase didn't read their statements with them and ask them if they said it or not?
Please.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Albertini on May 28, 2014, 08:57:19 PM
What and he signed it without seeing a translation? As a professional doctor he signed something official like a police statement without reading it back or having it read to back to him in his mother tongue? If we are to believe that, and it's stretching credulity to do so, why not put out a correction AFTER the files were released?
Do you think they would have not protested when made arguidos that the evidence in their statements, which formed part of the basis for them being Arguido's, wasn't seen by them in English before they signed it?
Are we also expected to believe that their lawyer under that phase didn't read their statements with them and ask them if they said it or not?
Please.
as I have said before these statements were given as victims ..not under caution...and could not be used in evidence and are therefore unimportant...moreover some of what you are referring to are not part of the official files but unofficial translations
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: John on May 28, 2014, 09:13:31 PM
as I have said before these statements were given as victims ..not under caution...and could not be used in evidence and are therefore unimportant...moreover some of what you are referring to are not part of the official files but unofficial translations
...evidence of what Dave?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Albertini on May 28, 2014, 09:18:10 PM
as I have said before these statements were given as victims ..not under caution...and could not be used in evidence and are therefore unimportant...moreover some of what you are referring to are not part of the official files but unofficial translations
Do you not think a lawyer worth his salt would have gone through those statements with his client to try and find how and why the police were building a case against them?
These unofficial translations remain the last word on the net, read by hundreds of thousands (if not more) of people.
If they were patently untrue why not seek to correct them or put a statement out to the world saying they are untrue?
Why would you and who would leave patently incorrect information, information which seeks to cast doubt on your stories, and imply guilt, without seeking to correct it?
Particularly when PR and internet monitoring have been such a vital part of your campaign?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2014, 09:20:31 PM
I don't think they had a lawyer on the 4th of May, did they?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2014, 09:29:06 PM
I don't think they had a lawyer on the 4th of May, did they?
No, i never said nor implied they did. They did have lawyers when they were made Arguido's who should have gone through the statements they gave after the disappearance and to review their testimonies and indeed case in general.
Why didn't the McCann's tell their lawyer they thought their statements were mistranslated?
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2014, 01:44:44 AM
What and he signed it without seeing a translation? As a professional doctor he signed something official like a police statement without reading it back or having it read to back to him in his mother tongue? If we are to believe that, and it's stretching credulity to do so, why not put out a correction AFTER the files were released?
Do you think they would have not protested when made arguidos that the evidence in their statements, which formed part of the basis for them being Arguido's, wasn't seen by them in English before they signed it?
Are we also expected to believe that their lawyer under that phase didn't read their statements with them and ask them if they said it or not?
Please.
At that first interview Gerry wasn't sitting there as a 'professional doctor' he was a distraught father traumatised by the fact that his beloved daughter had been abducted. He was in bits.
His statement was not given to him in English so that the could read it, it was read out to him by an interpretor at the interpretor's pace. After hours of interrogation, and being physically and mentally exhausted it is highly likely that he was in no state to notice anything untoward at that time. If at some later stage he was given a written record in English of what he said it would be at that point he realised that there were errors in the statement - which he then rectified at his next interview. The statement he signed was in Portuguese not English.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2014, 01:56:57 AM
At that first interview Gerry wasn't sitting there as a 'professional doctor' he was a distraught father traumatised by the fact that his beloved daughter had been abducted. He was in bits.
His statement was not given to him in English so that the could read it, it was read out to him by an interpretor at the interpretor's pace. After hours of interrogation, and being physically and mentally exhausted it is highly likely that he was in no state to notice anything untoward at that time. If at some later stage he was given a written record in English of what he said it would be at that point he realised that there were errors in the statement - which he then rectified at his next interview. The statement he signed was in Portuguese not English.
I would rather let the people who were there say what actually happened. The 2nd statement was a week later not the next day. A week is a long time to think things over especially about abductor Tannerman. 5A now unlocked, door has moved. OMG Tannerman is inside 5A. I suppose people are really easily manipulated 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2014, 02:01:44 AM
I would rather let the people who were there say what actually happened. The 2nd statement was a week later not the next day. A week is a long time to think things over especially about abductor Tannerman. 5A now unlocked, door has moved. OMG Tannerman is inside 5A 8-)(--)
We haven't been told what Gerry said when he changed his statement - so once again people are speculating on only half of a story.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2014, 02:08:37 AM
We haven't been told what Gerry said when he changed his statement - so once again people are speculating on only half of a story.
Read the statements and compare the two. It's easy Benice. The statements are there. Come back and tell me when the door moves before his check in his 1st statement? Now look at the statement a week later. A week later he comes in the unlocked patio door so Tannerman can get inside and move the door. He puts himself on the other side of the road because Tannerman is now inside 5A committing a crime. Tannerman, Tannerman, Tannerman. Look at their website Tannerman! But they don't like Smithman 8(0(*
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2014, 02:32:12 AM
Read the statements and compare the two. It's easy Benice. The statements are there. Come back and tell me when the door moves before his check in his 1st statement? Now look at the statement a week later. A week later he comes in the unlocked patio door so Tannerman can get inside and move the door. He puts himself on the other side of the road because Tannerman is now inside 5A committing a crime. Tannerman, Tannerman, Tannerman. Look at their website Tannerman! But they don't like Smithman 8(0(*
None of that has anything to do with my post and I fail to see what difference it makes to anything -re what side of the road he was standing.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2014, 02:34:34 AM
At that first interview Gerry wasn't sitting there as a 'professional doctor' he was a distraught father traumatised by the fact that his beloved daughter had been abducted. He was in bits.
His statement was not given to him in English so that the could read it, it was read out to him by an interpretor at the interpretor's pace. After hours of interrogation, and being physically and mentally exhausted it is highly likely that he was in no state to notice anything untoward at that time. If at some later stage he was given a written record in English of what he said it would be at that point he realised that there were errors in the statement - which he then rectified at his next interview. The statement he signed was in Portuguese not English.
Utter hogwash. The errors were given by himself. He said "Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty," he did not say "my previous statement was translated wrong and what he actually said was".
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2014, 08:17:37 AM
Does any of this matter? The Summaries and Statements are never going to be tested in Court. The McCanns were panicked and confused, and the language barrier seriously didn't help. And if, God forbid, a body is found, which I doubt, then the abductor disposed of Madeleine for fear of DNA from direct contact. Although I can't actually see the abductor digging while all of those people were about, searching on waste land, which would have been the obvious place to look. Even disturbed soil would have been obvious. And as for who used which door when, this is actually irrelevant.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2014, 09:30:15 AM
Does any of this matter? The Summaries and Statements are never going to be tested in Court. The McCanns were panicked and confused, and the language barrier seriously didn't help. And if, God forbid, a body is found, which I doubt, then the abductor disposed of Madeleine for fear of DNA from direct contact. Although I can't actually see the abductor digging while all of those people were about, searching on waste land, which would have been the obvious place to look. Even disturbed soil would have been obvious. And as for who used which door when, this is actually irrelevant.
Panicked -Yes. Confused - No.. IMO
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Carana on May 29, 2014, 09:43:22 AM
Utter hogwash. The errors were given by himself. He said "Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty," he did not say "my previous statement was translated wrong and what he actually said was".
No one knows what he actually said. He may well have pointed out that there was a mistake. How that gets phrased is up to the police officer.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2014, 09:46:30 AM
Which abductor would that be? The "I am not an abductor" seen by Jane Tanner, smelly bin man, Beatle man, dead tractor man, or the abductor for whom there is yet no credible evidence?
“Which abductor would that be?”
The actual abductor responsible for abducting Madeleine McCann will do me fine whether it be one of the people you mention or another we know nothing about.
I am content that with the combined experience and expertise of the current PJ team and NSY this investigation is the closest we have been to him ~ her ~ or them ~ for seven long years.
Everyone who ‘seeks the truth’ should be happy about that.
Title: Re: The locked front door versus the unlocked rear patio door issue.
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2014, 10:13:28 AM
Utter hogwash. The errors were given by himself. He said "Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty," he did not say "my previous statement was translated wrong and what he actually said was".
That statement gives no clue as to why Gerry corrected his statement. Unless we know what the reason was - we can only speculate.
Its apparent imo that there had been confusion about the doors during interview(s) with the PJ as it is mentioned by a UK police officer in JT's rogatory statement - and the reason why she suggested that they describe the patio door as the 'poolside' door and the front door as 'the roadside door' was clearly to prevent a recurrence of that previous confusion.
Knowing that Gerry's change of statement was about those doors, then IMO to claim that a misunderstanding of what he said during that first interview in relation to the doors could not possibly be the reason why he needed to correct the statement, is unrealistic.