UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Joanne on August 02, 2012, 10:37:35 AM
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The blue forum is driving me mad-slowly with the great debate on Jeremy Bamber being a psychopath, so what is the definition of a psychopath?
PRIMARY PSYCHOPATHS do not respond to punishment, apprehension, stress, or disapproval.
SECONDARY PSYCHOPATHS are risk-takers, but are also more likely to be stress-reactive, worriers, and guilt-prone.
DISTEMPERED PSYCHOPATHS are the kind that seem to fly into a rage or frenzy more easily and more often than other subtypes.
CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS are charming, attractive liars. They are usually gifted at some talent or another, and they use it to their advantage in manipulating others.
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm
(Thats quite a good report, I didn't want to c=p it all but it's worth reading)
Psychopathy Checklist, Revised (PCL-R) is the psycho-diagnostic tool most commonly used to assess psychopathy-:
Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term (marital) relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
Or narcissitic-:
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.
Symptoms of this disorder may include, but are not limited to:
Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Becoming jealous easily
Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
Being obsessed with oneself
Pursuing mainly selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Becoming easily hurt and rejected
Setting goals that are unrealistic
Wanting "the best" of everything
Appearing unemotional
The cause of this disorder is unknown, according to Groopman and Cooper. However, they list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:
An oversensitive temperament at birth
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults
Severe emotional abuse in childhood
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1.Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2.Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3.Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4.Requires excessive admiration
5.Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6.Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7.Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8.Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9.Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.
It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific
Theodore Millon identified five subtypes of narcissist. Any individual narcissist may exhibit none or one of the following:
Unprincipled narcissist – including [ censored word]ocial features. A charlatan – is a fraudulent, exploitative, deceptive and unscrupulous individual.
Amorous narcissist – including histrionic features. The Don Juan or Casanova of our times – is erotic, exhibitionist.
Compensatory narcissist – including negativistic (passive-aggressive), avoidant features.
Elitist narcissist – variant of pure pattern. Corresponds to Wilhelm Reich's "phallic narcissistic" personality type.
Fanatic narcissist – including paranoid features. An individual whose self-esteem was severely arrested during childhood, who usually displays major paranoid tendencies, and who holds on to an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting delusions of insignificance and lost value, and trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition or support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
I have no idea, other than to say he's not normal and for the blue forum-I am not a professional in mental health, I don't lecture people in mental health, all I do is sit here copying and pasting.
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They do talk a lot of bunkum most of the time. The womens institute is more interesting though believe you me. 8**8:/:
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An interesting post Joanne.
Oddly, a large number of psychopaths spontaneously improve around middle age. The phenomenon has been observed for decades, but not explained. …From adolescence to their fifties, psychopaths showed virtually no change in emotional characteristics but improved dramatically in [ censored word]ocial behavior. The inner drives did not change, but their behaviour did. Some expert believe that these psychopaths might simply be adapting. >@@(*&)
Another informed expert states, "One bit of good news: no one knows why, but, in certain cases, though rarely, with age (in one's forties), the disorder seems to mutate into a subdued version of its former self."
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
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Prison regime is a very controlled environment and I would not be in the least surprised if such an environment had an affect on the condition as in the case of Jeremy Bamber. I have spoken to inmates who shared a wing with him (not Tesko) and they are of the opinion that he is cunning and conniving and most certainly guilty. You will find that such people are generally on the ball given the time that they have actually spent in the individuals company and observed his demeanour. I hope this makes sense?
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
I have never seen any reference to them being cured as such by middle age, just improved. I don't believe a psychopath can be cured, you either are or you aren't, there is no middle ground apparently.
There is an entire topic dedicated to this subject...
Narcissistic Personality Disorder - What is it? (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=519.msg15239#msg15239)
What is the Difference between a Psychopath and the Narcissist? (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=519.msg15242#msg15242)
Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Can it be cured? (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=519.msg15240#msg15240)
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!
Well hello there Tim!! 8((()*/
Good to have you back 8((()*/
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!
Hello Tim.
Same with me.............my boys say it is old age?? 8)><(
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Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.
So let me get this straight guys. What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age?? >@@(*&)
Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!
Hello Tim.
Same with me.............my boys say it is old age?? 8)><(
I must say I agree with what you are saying but we all go through changes as we get older. We don't take the same risks as we did in our youth...we learn from past experiences...usually!
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Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! @)(++(*
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An interesting posts Joanne,
After some years working in mental health and particularly dealing with people who are deemed anti-social or display ASPD (anti-social personality disorder) traits, I have had the opportunity to observe them closely and managed to pick up a little about what makes them tick. I am no expert and I do not profess to know any more than anyone else would know. I have studied them a little and here are my thoughts. Take from it what you will.
First and foremost I think it important top point out that this is not a disease and it is not classed as a mental ilness per se, but rather as a (often dangerous) personality trait. It is a pattern of behaviours that have become entrenched within someone's personality.
Psychopathy has been studied for many years. In history they referred to a person now deemed to be a psychopath as being 'morally insane' However, it seems that many people may have the wrong impression of what a psychopath actually is. Far from being the drooling, murderous monsters from our nightmares, most psychopaths in our midst would not attract any attention at all. This normality is all part of what makes them so successful - the ability to remain undetected. While it is true that most - if not all - serial killers are psychopathic, they only represent a tiny minority of the different types of psychopath. While most of us would feel guilt when exploiting or hurting someone, the psychopath is unable to have such feelings. This might explain why most of them do so well in commercial, military or political fields.
So how are they so successful in what they do? Well, they are often amusing, charming and fun to be with. What separates us from them is their complete inability to feel empathy, sympathy, remorse or guilt for their actions. They have no difficulty undertaking actions that most of us would find shameful, distressing or cause us to experience guilt or remorse. They can have jobs, get married and they can break the law like anyone else. But their jobs and marriages usually don’t last and their life is usually on the verge of personal chaos. A psychopath is usually a manipulator. They do this by playing to the emotions of others. They typically have high verbal intelligence, but they lack what is commonly referred to as "emotional intelligence". There is always a shallow quality to the emotional aspect of their stories. In particular they have difficulty describing how they felt, why they felt that way, or how others may have felt and why. Moreover, They do not experience high ranging emotions such as anxiety or worry and are very logical in their thinking, whereas more abstract thinking may elude them. They are often very good with numerical figures and deductive logical reasoning but poor in terms of writing skills, languages and abstract interpretation (reading between the lines)
One of the main charisteristics of a psychopath is the ability to con others. Deception is almost of second nature to them and the psychopath would not think twice about conning others for their own ends. Psychopaths are also very shallow emotionally and will 'talk the talk' but cannot 'walk the walk' They may display emotional distress but they are often acting it out rather than experiencing it. To do this they need to take their cue from others and mimic what they see. This can often lead them into appearing to act inappropriately or 'over the top' in certain social situations. It has been said that they “know the words but not the music.”
The ability to manipulate is key for the psychopath to be successful. They will often display the emotions that the other wants to see, or work on a person's insecurities and find out weaknesses that they can later exploit. At work he will portray a hard working, well-liked individual, but in reality he is scheming behind you back and setting others against you. He may find it easy to seduce members of the opposite sex by telling them exactly what they want to hear and play on their inner insecurities. They draw them in step-by-step, and in so doing the person becomes ever more dependant on them as the psychopath exerts more control. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for the person to get a true picture of what is happening to them and harder still to to break free from their control.
Another key facet of psychopathy is the utter inability to take responsibility for their own actions. They will often blame others for something that they themselves are guilty of. If caught out the psychopath will shift the blame onto the victim. For example, M25 rapist Antoni Imiela tried to justify his appalling crimes by stating 'it was her fault she was raped.......she dressed so provocatively' This is par-for-the-course for a psychopath as they are unable to sense the sheer hypocrisy in what they are saying.
This brings me to my last point; a psychopath nearly universally posses a overblown sense of entitlement. They see the skills, sucesses and possessions of others with something approaching barely concealed envy. So much so that corportate psychopaths have been known to steal the ideas of others and claim them for themselves. They see them as theirs by right and justify it thus; 'I would have thought of it first anyway'They are always right and everyone else is either wrong or they simply dont count. This gives rise to the insufferable confidence and arrogance that so many psychopaths are famous for.
Moreover one interesting fact is that some psychopaths have a very poor autonomic response system - (a set of automatic instructions hotwired to our brain that controls our heartbeat, breathing, blinking and other things we do without thinking) they don't blink as often as other people and this gives them a distinct 'stare' However, this is just an observation as many psychopaths do not exhib this.
It is true that psychopaths do seem to mellow with age as their mental agilities slowly errodes. Most serial killers are between 20-40 year of age and it is exceptionally rare to find any that begin their odious careers any older.
The reason for this maybe biological in terms of age, but it may also be due to the loss of physical prowess also.
Moreover, the evidence suggest that psychopaths cannot be cured. In fact they Dr Robert Hare (an expert in psychopathy) suggests that with therapy the psychopath will only learn more increasingly devious methods to avoid detection. For example, some studies show that after receiving group therapy in prison, psychopaths are more likely to commit new crimes than if they had received no treatment at all. Listening to others bare their soul is clearly not a good strategy: psychopaths are notoriously good at learning and exploiting the weaknesses of others. They
also have trouble absorbing abstract ideas, so lectures about personal responsibility are unlikely to penetrate.
In short, you would probably not recognise a psychopath in the street and would not know if you met one until it is too late, and usually by that time the psychopath would have moved on to his next victim and you will be left feeling completely used and devastated or, in some extreme examples......very dead.
So is Jeremy Bamber a psychopath? It would certainly seem so. He ticks an awful lot of boxes.
The psychiatrist at his orginal trial certainly seemed to think so and commented that Bamber was a textbook case. However, with respect, I cannot say for a fact whether he is or isn't. I certainly suspect that he is. The tests he has had in prison - some 27 I believe, all are suggestive of Bamber being perfectly normal. However, we do not know under what conditions, criteria or auspices these test were carried out as no final reports have ever been fully published.
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Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! @)(++(*
Certainly not...I believe it is a very valid question which even the blue forum are considering.
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Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! @)(++(*
Certainly not...I believe it is a very valid question which even the blue forum are considering.
What has happened to the blue forum? I've never read so much silly shite in all my life. It's embarrassing.
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good evening one and all 8)-)))
what is the latest with the judidiacl review thing??? have they reached a decision yet on whether to refer the case back to the ccrc again??? 8-)(--)
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Thats what I was asking last week but no-one knows when the claim was issued. If the proceedings were issued, say, in June, its unlikely that a judge would have made a decision on the papers yet. After the claim is issued and served, the Defendant (ie CCRC) would have 21 days to file an Acknowledgment of Service and Summary Grounds of their Defence. The papers would then be sent to a judge but there is quite a long queue at the moment -particulary as its the summer vacation.
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Thats what I was asking last week but no-one knows when the claim was issued. If the proceedings were issued, say, in June, its unlikely that a judge would have made a decision on the papers yet. After the claim is issued and served, the Defendant (ie CCRC) would have 21 days to file an Acknowledgment of Service and Summary Grounds of their Defence. The papers would then be sent to a judge but there is quite a long queue at the moment -particulary as its the summer vacation.
Is it a single judge who accepts the case for review Frank? How many judges will actually make the decision? >@@(*&)
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I watched a programme on the supreme court the other day, I think the said it was 5 or 6 out of 12 and they went on a majority vote and the have to follow the law, even when they knew it wasn't the best outcome. I tried to find the link but it's been removed.
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Hello everybody
A very interesting case. I look forward to discussing it with everybody.
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Hello everybody
A very interesting case. I look forward to discussing it with everybody.
Hi James,
welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading your posts. 8((()*/
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Yes its going to be a single judge who will look at the case on the papers initially. If he grants permission on the papers then the case will go to a final hearing most probably before one judge. On occasions two judges will preside over final hearings in the Administrative Court (where Bamber's case will go), but I feel that probably wont apply here. If the judge refuses permission on the papers then Bamber can apply for an oral hearing (again before a single judge). If that's refused too, Bamber can try to get permission to appeal from the Court or Appeal ( yet again, a single judge there will look at it on the papers). Finally if thats refused (and Mckay hasnt given up by that stage) he can ask for a short oral hearing before the Court of Appeal. That could be before two judges but quite possibly just one.
Thats what I was asking last week but no-one knows when the claim was issued. If the proceedings were issued, say, in June, its unlikely that a judge would have made a decision on the papers yet. After the claim is issued and served, the Defendant (ie CCRC) would have 21 days to file an Acknowledgment of Service and Summary Grounds of their Defence. The papers would then be sent to a judge but there is quite a long queue at the moment -particulary as its the summer vacation.
Is it a single judge who accepts the case for review Frank? How many judges will actually make the decision? >@@(*&)
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
Difference was though Pugs the bodies of the victims in the Rettendon murders had been found in sub zero temperatures. The Bamber family deaths, as you know occured in August.
Nice to cross swords again Pugs 8(0(*
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
Difference was though Pugs the bodies of the victims in the Rettendon murders had been found in sub zero temperatures. The Bamber family deaths, as you know occured in August.
Nice to cross swords again Pugs 8(0(*
You too, Cliff!! Did your Yorkie pup ever shed that tooth?
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
Difference was though Pugs the bodies of the victims in the Rettendon murders had been found in sub zero temperatures. The Bamber family deaths, as you know occured in August.
Nice to cross swords again Pugs 8(0(*
You too, Cliff!! Did your Yorkie pup ever shed that tooth?
Sorry to bang on, but if he didn't, a cheaper option than going to the vet's is playing tug of war with him with an old pair of tights, and the tooth should pop out. It worked for me, with a Jack pup. Saved me 60 quid!!
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
Difference was though Pugs the bodies of the victims in the Rettendon murders had been found in sub zero temperatures. The Bamber family deaths, as you know occured in August.
Nice to cross swords again Pugs 8(0(*
I'm not sure if temperature has anything to do with it, Cliff. There was condensation on what was left of the windows, it was an enclosed space in the Range Rover, the bodies were large and clothed. Obvious rigor and livor, but the bodies still bled.
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Hi Wonderful Buddy 8(0(*
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And if Mike still believes that Sheila shot herself in the kitchen, then ran upstairs without choking on, or swallowing blood.....well, he needs a check up from the neck up.
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Hi Wonderful Buddy 8(0(*
Hi jackie hope you are well.
Multiple answers here. Buddies tooth is still there. I tried to get him to tug on my wifes drawers, but he threw up, so I tried my socks, but had the same affect. The yorkies have had a gutfull of chicken today so they will be farting for England in the morning.
I have bought a yorky/ cross. [how do you spell chiowa], but that is what he is. A right gent, I love them all. Soft as s*** I know. The last yorky I got is in front of me on his back, feet in the air, and nuts on display. Bless him.
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Buddy Yorkies are adorable aren't they but really I love all dogs, I am glad you have your new puppy xxx
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Thanks Frank, what a hullabaloo all the same and if I know Jeremy Bamber he will insist on going through every stage too if the previous one fails. Must be costing McKay a fortune in lost fees.
I appreciate the clarity with which you explain these proceedings Frank.
I'll say it again - look at the Rettendon murders. Hours after those men were shot, they leaked bright red blood on the morgue tables. That would help to explain Ralph's blood loss from his head injuries, and the blood on Sheila's face in the mortuary still image. She was never in the kitchen, or on the bed, and there was never any CPR performed on her. QED.
Difference was though Pugs the bodies of the victims in the Rettendon murders had been found in sub zero temperatures. The Bamber family deaths, as you know occured in August.
Nice to cross swords again Pugs 8(0(*
I'm not sure if temperature has anything to do with it, Cliff. There was condensation on what was left of the windows, it was an enclosed space in the Range Rover, the bodies were large and clothed. Obvious rigor and livor, but the bodies still bled.
Good points Shona,
For those not familiar with the case the Rettendon murders were every bit as gruesome as the White House Farm killings. Three notorious drug dealers were found dead in a range rover, parked in a quiet country lane in Essex in December 1995. All three were shot multiple times with a double-barrelled shotgun. The bodies were photographed at the morgue still bleeding some hours after their deaths. Jack Whomes and Michael Steele were later convicted of the triple murders and sentenced to life.
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I don't think Steele, or whomes were involved. Yes Steele was a wrongun, but had no history of violence.
In my humble opinion it was all to do with Leah Betts, the coppers daughter. I forget the name of the grass, but he got away with drug smuggling for giving evidence against Steele, and Whomes.
They did not have multiple wounds, but were clinicly shot. In fact the driver of the landrover still had his hands on the wheel, they never knew what happened.
According to the time line they had laid there for some hours before being found, and it was a freezing night.
This being the case blood would flow again once the bodies were taken to the morgue, and they started to defrost again so to speak.
The murdered men had many enemies, and it was only a matter of time before they were wiped out.
My son knows Pat Tates brother, and he does not think that Steele, and Whomes are responsible. In fact the brother of Jack Whomes [John] said he was a lousy shot, and he would have been asked to do the job.
The pair have never admitted to guilt, and this will impact on any attempt for parole.
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I don't think Steele, or whomes were involved. Yes Steele was a wrongun, but had no history of violence.
In my humble opinion it was all to do with Leah Betts, the coppers daughter. I forget the name of the grass, but he got away with drug smuggling for giving evidence against Steele, and Whomes.
They did not have multiple wounds, but were clinicly shot. In fact the driver of the landrover still had his hands on the wheel, they never knew what happened.
According to the time line they had laid there for some hours before being found, and it was a freezing night.
This being the case blood would flow again once the bodies were taken to the morgue, and they started to defrost again so to speak.
The murdered men had many enemies, and it was only a matter of time before they were wiped out.
My son knows Pat Tates brother, and he does not think that Steele, and Whomes are responsible. In fact the brother of Jack Whomes [John] said he was a lousy shot, and he would have been asked to do the job.
The pair have never admitted to guilt, and this will impact on any attempt for parole.
Thank you for that Buddy, I am not too familiar with the case. I am sure however, that Pat Tate and Tony Tucker were shot more than once? The bodies were not frozen, in fact heat from the bodies caused condensation to build up on the inside of the glass.
The case has always seemed a strange one. They were convicted on the word of a well-known criminal and supergrass Darren Nicholls and from what little I have read it would appear that the two convicted men do have a case for a re-trial. Nicholls had claimed the killings took place between 6.45pm and 7pm. But not a single gunshot was heard during that time, despite experts saying the noise from the shots should have been audible a mile away. However, at about midnight, an independent witness heard about six gunshots in the area of Rettendon.
So lots of uncertainty and doubt which probably a re-trial would help to clarify.
Thanks for your points Buddy. 8((()*/
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If you would like to read something really gut wrenching I suggest a glance at Bamber's latest blog today. We should be saddened at how this poor man is grieving the loss of the 5 members of his family nearly 27 years ago. LIKE HELL ! His case has been looked at time and time again and the consistent conclusion has been that his conviction was safe. Another 27 years to go if you can survive that long.
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There is a suggestion on the blue forum that Sheila smoked cigars? A little unusual for a woman.
Has anyone that knew sheila confirmed that she smoked cigars, is it in a statement somewhere?
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If you would like to read something really gut wrenching I suggest a glance at Bamber's latest blog today. We should be saddened at how this poor man is grieving the loss of the 5 members of his family nearly 27 years ago. LIKE HELL ! His case has been looked at time and time again and the consistent conclusion has been that his conviction was safe. Another 27 years to go if you can survive that long.
Thank you for pointing this out Dillon. I believe it is worth reposting here but be warned if you have just had supper, best to have a bucket handy.
(http://i.imgur.com/9MAx6.png)
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If you would like to read something really gut wrenching I suggest a glance at Bamber's latest blog today. We should be saddened at how this poor man is grieving the loss of the 5 members of his family nearly 27 years ago. LIKE HELL ! His case has been looked at time and time again and the consistent conclusion has been that his conviction was safe. Another 27 years to go if you can survive that long.
Thank you for pointing this out Dillon. I believe it is worth reposting here but be warned if you have just had supper, best to have a bucket handy.
(http://i.imgur.com/9MAx6.png)
Thank you John for putting a copy of Emilia di Girolamo's little deluded piece on Jeremy's blog. Who are these people who enable Jeremy's lies and deception ? The only tears that Bamber may weep today on the 27th anniversary of his killing spree may be that he cocked his plan up so badly by trying to blame his poor sister with that infamous alleged telephone call from Nevill. A disgusting and cowardly act .
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I don't think Steele, or whomes were involved. Yes Steele was a wrongun, but had no history of violence.
In my humble opinion it was all to do with Leah Betts, the coppers daughter. I forget the name of the grass, but he got away with drug smuggling for giving evidence against Steele, and Whomes.
They did not have multiple wounds, but were clinicly shot. In fact the driver of the landrover still had his hands on the wheel, they never knew what happened.
According to the time line they had laid there for some hours before being found, and it was a freezing night.
This being the case blood would flow again once the bodies were taken to the morgue, and they started to defrost again so to speak.
The murdered men had many enemies, and it was only a matter of time before they were wiped out.
My son knows Pat Tates brother, and he does not think that Steele, and Whomes are responsible. In fact the brothe
Jack Whomes [John] said he was a lousy shot, and he would have been asked to do the job.
The pair have never admitted to guilt, and this will impact on any attempt for parole.
Thank you for that Buddy, I am not too familiar with the case. I am sure however, that Pat Tate and Tony Tucker were shot more than once? The bodies were not frozen, in fact heat from the bodies caused condensation to build up on the inside of the glas
The case has always seemed a strange one. They were convicted on the word of a well-known criminal and supergrass Darren Nicholls and from what little I have read it would appear that the two convicted men do have a case for a re-trial. Nicholls had claimed the killings took place between 6.45pm and 7pm. But not a single gunshot was heard during that time, despite experts saying the noise from the shots should have been audible a mile away. However, at about midnight, an independent witness heard about six gunshots in the area of Rettendon.
So lots of uncertainty and doubt which probably a re-trial would help to clarify.
Thanks for your points Buddy. 8((()*/
Buddy is way off the mark with his assessment of the Rettendon case. I have read a great deal about this case and can confirm that just about everything that Buddy has stated is factually wrong.
This case was similar to Bamber's , in that there was no forensic evidence to link them to the scene of the murder. Similar also in the fact that there was overwhelming, incriminating, circumstantial evidence.
The glamorisation of these gangster related crimes confuses this particular case even further. People would rather believe that a big London gang was responsible for these murders and nobody is in a rush to deny it because it adds to their 'kudos'.
Steele was/is indeed a wrongun, he had previous convictions for drug importation as well as violence. He is, by all accounts, a very clever man and thought that he could outwit the police. Essex Police relied heavily on telephone records with which they could retrospectively,track all the protagonists for weeks prior to and after the murders.
Their conviction is as safe as houses.
Nicholls (the supergrass) was sentenced for his part in the drug importations, due to the amount of time he spent on remand, he was released after his trial. He is currently living under the witness protection program.
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I don't think Steele, or whomes were involved. Yes Steele was a wrongun, but had no history of violence.
In my humble opinion it was all to do with Leah Betts, the coppers daughter. I forget the name of the grass, but he got away with drug smuggling for giving evidence against Steele, and Whomes.
They did not have multiple wounds, but were clinicly shot. In fact the driver of the landrover still had his hands on the wheel, they never knew what happened.
According to the time line they had laid there for some hours before being found, and it was a freezing night.
This being the case blood would flow again once the bodies were taken to the morgue, and they started to defrost again so to speak.
The murdered men had many enemies, and it was only a matter of time before they were wiped out.
My son knows Pat Tates brother, and he does not think that Steele, and Whomes are responsible. In fact the brothe
Jack Whomes [John] said he was a lousy shot, and he would have been asked to do the job.
The pair have never admitted to guilt, and this will impact on any attempt for parole.
Thank you for that Buddy, I am not too familiar with the case. I am sure however, that Pat Tate and Tony Tucker were shot more than once? The bodies were not frozen, in fact heat from the bodies caused condensation to build up on the inside of the glas
The case has always seemed a strange one. They were convicted on the word of a well-known criminal and supergrass Darren Nicholls and from what little I have read it would appear that the two convicted men do have a case for a re-trial. Nicholls had claimed the killings took place between 6.45pm and 7pm. But not a single gunshot was heard during that time, despite experts saying the noise from the shots should have been audible a mile away. However, at about midnight, an independent witness heard about six gunshots in the area of Rettendon.
So lots of uncertainty and doubt which probably a re-trial would help to clarify.
Thanks for your points Buddy. 8((()*/
Buddy is way off the mark with his assessment of the Rettendon case. I have read a great deal about this case and can confirm that just about everything that Buddy has stated is factually wrong.
This case was similar to Bamber's , in that there was no forensic evidence to link them to the scene of the murder. Similar also in the fact that there was overwhelming, incriminating, circumstantial evidence.
The glamorisation of these gangster related crimes confuses this particular case even further. People would rather believe that a big London gang was responsible for these murders and nobody is in a rush to deny it because it adds to their 'kudos'.
Steele was/is indeed a wrongun, he had previous convictions for drug importation as well as violence. He is, by all accounts, a very clever man and thought that he could outwit the police. Essex Police relied heavily on telephone records with which they could retrospectively,track all the protagonists for weeks prior to and after the murders.
Their conviction is as safe as houses.
Nicholls (the supergrass) was sentenced for his part in the drug importations, due to the amount of time he spent on remand, he was released after his trial. He is currently living under the witness protection program.
Thank you for that Sika,
That was so interesting. It goes to show you how cases can be misinterpreted. I will have to study-up on the case to keep up. I watched a few documentaries on this and Whomes & Steele swore their innocence (particularly Whomes who was heard crying on the phone to his mother from prison)
Are they due a CCRC inquest or have they already had one Sika? Do you know?
Thanks for setting me straight on that one Sika. Top respect 8((()*/
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Hi Ian,
I found this to be a very interesting case. I was particularly drawn to it because of the doubt raised by many over the convictions. As with Bamber, the more I read, the more I was convinced of their guilt. Just like the Bamber case, because there was nothing to forensically link them to the crime, they take advantage of this by trying to get out on a technicality. They are currently working on submissions to he CCRC. I have read that the main plank of this will centre around the mobile telephone belonging to one of the victims. It is being suggested that as technology has evolved, more information has been retrieved from the phone. Sounds like complete bull to me.
Throughout their police interviews, both Steele and Wholmes declined to answer any questions.
Steele's alibi was proved to be false.
Phone records place Nicholls and Wholmes in Rettendon at the time of the murders.
Steele was told in advance of the murders that Pat Tate was intending to kill HIM!
The phone records and the detailed evidence of Nicholls really did for Steele and Wholmes. Although they did make mistakes, overall this was a good investigation by Essex Police.
Again, like the Bamber case, the documentaries that occasionally pop up should be viewed with great caution. I don't need to tell you this I know, but the only place to start with these cases is with the official documentation. I will now attempt to provide a link to some good info on this case. Don't hold your breath though!!
http://www.bernardomahoney.com/rrmurders/documents.shtml
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Hi Ian,
I found this to be a very interesting case. I was particularly drawn to it because of the doubt raised by many over the convictions. As with Bamber, the more I read, the more I was convinced of their guilt. Just like the Bamber case, because there was nothing to forensically link them to the crime, they take advantage of this by trying to get out on a technicality. They are currently working on submissions to he CCRC. I have read that the main plank of this will centre around the mobile telephone belonging to one of the victims. It is being suggested that as technology has evolved, more information has been retrieved from the phone. Sounds like complete bull to me.
Throughout their police interviews, both Steele and Wholmes declined to answer any questions.
Steele's alibi was proved to be false.
Phone records place Nicholls and Wholmes in Rettendon at the time of the murders.
Steele was told in advance of the murders that Pat Tate was intending to kill HIM!
The phone records and the detailed evidence of Nicholls really did for Steele and Wholmes. Although they did make mistakes, overall this was a good investigation by Essex Police.
Again, like the Bamber case, the documentaries that occasionally pop up should be viewed with great caution. I don't need to tell you this I know, but the only place to start with these cases is with the official documentation. I will now attempt to provide a link to some good info on this case. Don't hold your breath though!!
http://www.bernardomahoney.com/rrmurders/documents.shtml
Brilliant Sika thanks,
I will read this with avid interest. Does sound like another Bamber case doesn't it? Some of the denials and reasons why they are 'innocent' certainly ring a bell.
Thanks again Sika. Maybe we could discuss this more a little later when I am well-versed with the case?
8((()*/
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It's the same old story. Miscall the police for everything but the minute they are in difficulties who do they call?
Re your comments above I can only go by my recent experiences with police and there handling of a complaint of mine when I was threatened
It's gradually getting sorted but my complaint is now over a year old and the police/IPCC have had 3 attempts to get it sorted but have failed and we are on the fourth attempt.
In their latest attempt they haven't even got the names right.
3 complaints upheld 7 to go till I am satisfied.
As for the police in general there are good policeman out there and I have a friend who is a policewomen in a very rough area so I know how tough the job is.
As for comments about Mark Williams Thomas earlier Mark told me on the phone that he was convinced Jeremy was innocent. I asked the question I wanted to know. Whatever anyone on here thinks about Mark I really like him and I Know he only wants to get to the truth.
You could hardly call his documentary biased towards Jeremy.
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It's the same old story. Miscall the police for everything but the minute they are in difficulties who do they call?
Re your comments above I can only go by my recent experiences with police and there handling of a complaint of mine when I was threatened
It's gradually getting sorted but my complaint is now over a year old and the police/IPCC have had 3 attempts to get it sorted but have failed and we are on the fourth attempt.
In their latest attempt they haven't even got the names right.
3 complaints upheld 7 to go till I am satisfied.
As for the police in general there are good policeman out there and I have a friend who is a policewomen in a very rough area so I know how tough the job is.
As for comments about Mark Williams Thomas earlier Mark told me on the phone that he was convinced Jeremy was innocent. I asked the question I wanted to know. Whatever anyone on here thinks about Mark I really like him and I Know he only wants to get to the truth.
You could hardly call his documentary biased towards Jeremy.
You have 10 complaints lodged against the police!!!!!
8-)(--)
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Patti reckons that it is a forensic fact that the gun was not wiped. Mike has always said that it was, by the police. And JB spends his days dredging through mountains of paperwork because he simply has nothing else to do. He needs to keep what credibilty he has, so as not to lose his few remaining supporters. Mostly women of a certain age. And as a child-killer, if he stopped proclaiming his innocence, he would be in permanent danger in prison. IMO he made 3 main mistakes - not smearing enough of Sheila's prints on the gun, not smearing Ralph's blood on the phone, and stating that he received a call from Ralph (no record of that) AFTER he rang Julie. She, and everyone of her housemates, timed that call between 3.00 and 3.12.
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Sheila wasn't strong, mentally or physically, she relied on Ralph for support and she leant on June. She took the boys (IMO) on that weekend for some respite. Just to catch her breath. She didn't have much money, she missed Colin, she was a bit lost. Even if June preached at her, it was the only haven she could find. It was her home, she felt safe.
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Tim
One initial investigation
10 points of complaint
I would post the lot but it's got protected all over it
I now have one full lever arch of stuff from the police/IPCC
I am making a point of something quite simple not being investigated properly so I have no faith in "any" murder being investigated properly
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If Sheila pounded Ralph's head with the butt of the gun, she would have been covered with backspatter. If she'd shot herself in the kitchen, then moved upstairs, she'd be drenched in blood flow. QED.
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself, she wouldn't shoot herself to the side of her throat.
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Evening! Shona.
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Evening gels x 8)--))
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My apologies if this has already been posted but it's a good article, old but good!
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Thanks for that Joanne, i can have another good read of it.
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It shows beyond a shadow of a doubt for me that Sheila could not and did not do it, unless I believe she changed her clothes, washed her hands and feet after every shot, wrestled with her 6 foot 4 inch father, shot herself but then managed to wash her hands, feet and change her clothes (despite being extremely injured, if not deceased), shooting herself again and somehow cleaning hersef up and not leaving any bloodstained clothes or mess-whatsoever.
As for Mike Tesko and his flippant thread about Sheila being on a 'date with death' and on a rampage with six bullets (or something similar), I should stick to Stephen King novels pal.
I have a warped sense of humour but even mine doesn't strech to that, especially when two babies got murdered, two six year olds who were totally, totally inocent of ANYTHING as were Sheila and Mr and Mrs Bamber who I believe were decent, honest and hardworking people who just did their best in life.
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It shows beyond a shadow of a doubt for me that Sheila could not and did not do it, unless I believe she changed her clothes, washed her hands and feet after every shot, wrestled with her 6 foot 4 inch father, shot herself but then managed to wash her hands, feet and change her clothes (despite being extremely injured, if not deceased), shooting herself again and somehow cleaning hersef up and not leaving any bloodstained clothes or mess-whatsoever.
As for Mike Tesko and his flippant thread about Sheila being on a 'date with death' and on a rampage with six bullets (or something similar), I should stick to Stephen King novels pal.
I have a warped sense of humour but even mine doesn't strech to that, especially when two babies got murdered, two six year olds who were totally, totally inocent of ANYTHING as were Sheila and Mr and Mrs Bamber who I believe were decent, honest and hardworking people who just did their best in life.
What an excellent post Joanne. You have summed up why Bamber's conviction is 100% safe. Fortunately, any sane and sensible person can see this too. Tesko and his ever-decreasing camp are doing us a favour!
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Why is mertol?
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Thank you.
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Why is mertol?
Why is susan ingham?
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Why is mertol?
Why is susan ingham?
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Why is mertol?
Why is susan ingham?
Because she is JACKIE PREECE! @)(++(*
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Why is mertol?
Why is susan ingham?
Because she is JACKIE PREECE! @)(++(*
And margot is that fruitcake Craigie.
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It shows beyond a shadow of a doubt for me that Sheila could not and did not do it, unless I believe she changed her clothes, washed her hands and feet after every shot, wrestled with her 6 foot 4 inch father, shot herself but then managed to wash her hands, feet and change her clothes (despite being extremely injured, if not deceased), shooting herself again and somehow cleaning hersef up and not leaving any bloodstained clothes or mess-whatsoever.
As for Mike Tesko and his flippant thread about Sheila being on a 'date with death' and on a rampage with six bullets (or something similar), I should stick to Stephen King novels pal.
I have a warped sense of humour but even mine doesn't strech to that, especially when two babies got murdered, two six year olds who were totally, totally inocent of ANYTHING as were Sheila and Mr and Mrs Bamber who I believe were decent, honest and hardworking people who just did their best in life.
What a very nice, kind and objective post , Joanne. thank you. Nevill and June Bamber were just as you describe them and extremely well regarded. Sheila may have had mental health problems but was basically a sweet, loving person who adored her lively twins. Sheila's mental health diagnosis has been much distorted and one could well challenge the opinion of the private psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, who seems to have been preoccupied with putting a sexual slant on things. Psychiatry, and even more so in those days, is one of the least evidence based areas of medicine. Dr Ferguson jumped on the bandwagon and wrote an article in the press about his deceased patient at the time when Sheila was being scapegoated as the killer. Not very professional, IMO. Another view of her illness has been that she had a schizoaffective disorder, a very different cup of tea from the picture of a severe paranoid schizophrenia . Some of Bamber's supporters on the blue forum constantly regurgitate the same crap exagerating her illness but I suppose they have to, as they have to somehow present the possibility that she was the killer as at the end of the day it is Bamber's only real defence. I also know that she was in a positive, optimistic frame of mind in the period of time prior to the mass murder. Then all the other evidence of her physical state, as you so clearly state, are completely inconsistent with her having been the killer. To me it is very strange that the Bamber is Innocent Brigade
( BIB ! ) seem incapable of understanding the obvious.
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They seem to have no end of outlandish theories explaining why Sheila supposedly did what she did, and if it is pointed out that the theory is ridiculous they explain that she behaved in bizarre ways because she was mentally ill. The shower (after having sustained a near fatal neck wound) and the barking like a dog are both examples of this. However, they cannot understand how Jeremy could have behaved the way he did if he was the murderer. Well, actually a lot of his behaviour makes a lot of sense if you assume he was a psycopath.
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For me a psychopath is someone like Robert Napper or Peter Sutcliffe. Randomly killing complete strangers over several years.
Bamber planned and carried out an execution. Mainly for money. If successful it would have been clinical. No hammers or brutal beatings. Unfortunately Neville woke up.
However other people have called him a charming psychopath.
There have been lots of other inheritance killers. Not sure if they have all been called psychopaths.
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I listened to an interesting interview this morning, Noel "Razor" Smith was discussing his book "The Criminal Alphabet."
He's spent most of his life in various prisons (I'd love to know if he's met Bamber) and has recently been subjected to "a barrage of tests" that have diagnosed that he is a psychopath. This can be traced to a head injury he received as a young boy, which damaged the frontal lobe of his brain. Bamber also received a head injury as a baby, and it's entirely possible that it caused psychopathic tendencies.
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I listened to an interesting interview this morning, Noel "Razor" Smith was discussing his book "The Criminal Alphabet."
He's spent most of his life in various prisons (I'd love to know if he's met Bamber) and has recently been subjected to "a barrage of tests" that have diagnosed that he is a psychopath. This can be traced to a head injury he received as a young boy, which damaged the frontal lobe of his brain. Bamber also received a head injury as a baby, and it's entirely possible that it caused psychopathic tendencies.
I thought he took 27 gets by psychiatrists expressly to see if he's a dangerous psychopath (yearly review in the prison) and come out completely clean in all of them? Bit hard to argue with that . . . ?
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I thought he took 27 gets by psychiatrists expressly to see if he's a dangerous psychopath (yearly review in the prison) and come out completely clean in all of them? Bit hard to argue with that . . . ?
I doubt that even Holly, who is brilliant at verification, could find any actual evidence of those (I hate to say mystical) tests. He has (I think) to have to take some sort of yearly test, but it certainly is not an in-depth pyschiatic examination. It's probably just a test that he won't go bananas and smear his shit up the wall. Again.
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I doubt that even Holly, who is brilliant at verification, could find any actual evidence of those (I hate to say mystical) tests. He has (I think) to have to take some sort of yearly test, but it certainly is not an in-depth pyschiatic examination. It's probably just a test that he won't go bananas and smear his shit up the wall. Again.
I miss-spelt psychiatric. My bad, as Gladys used to say.
I am yet to see any evidence that Bamber passed any sort of mental test, or a lie-detector. Because he didn't. It's all a load of bollocks, just like his website. Run by sad old bints who got knocked back on Plenty of Fish.
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Obviously from a biased source, but . . .
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/psychological-findings-on-jeremy-bamber.html (http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/psychological-findings-on-jeremy-bamber.html)
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Was Shiela Caffell ever tested for personality disorders?
She seemed from the little I have read to be a cogent contender for these murders
There seems to be no clear definitive proof Bamber did it...dont jump on me, its just a matter of facts
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Was Shiela Caffell ever tested for personality disorders?
She seemed from the little I have read to be a cogent contender for these murders
There seems to be no clear definitive proof Bamber did it...dont jump on me, its just a matter of facts
Proof seems to be three-fold
1) Petty-criminal proven liar girlfriend who had been jilted and stood to benefit to the tune of a £25k newspaper deal only if he was found guilty retrospectively said he'd told her he had done it. It took her a month to mention this and only then because he dumped her. Even identifying the children's bodies in the morgue didn't trigger feelings of revulsion towards him. In the process she also claimed he had hired a mercenary to do the job - a local plumber who had once worked in Libya who fortunately had a cast-iron alibi because he was cheating on his wife and the people who lived with the lover saw him, otherwise he'd have been in jail for 30 years right now too.
2) Gun moderator found by relatives who inherited the estate after his guilty conviction after the police had already searched for evidence in the very place they found it. If he had inherited the estate he would own half of their farm. Tiny speck of blood on it was alleged to be Sheila's but the lab used the entire speck in one test so it didn't even have the second confirmatory test, let alone a set of others it should have had and it was only the same blood group as Sheila. The moderator was handled by at least 3 relatives, who had cleaned up the property so had access to Sheila's blood, put in a plastic bag, transported to another house then handled by several police officers before being out in a fridge at the police station with other samples including items with blood. At a later appeal the moderator was tested by forensics and had no blood on it. There then turned out to be more than one moderator anyhow.
3) the issue of whether Bamber's father had phoned him. When it was considered to be a suicide no-ones evidence conflicted with his statement that he had called the police first and then his girlfriend, but when they decided it was murder suddenly the policeman who wrote down the time of the call changed his statement to say that on a digital clock he had got a 2 and a 5 mixed up, and the girlfriend who previously said she was too sleepy to pay much attention to the call remembered looking at the time and her flatmate who was woken by the call suddenly remembered she kept her clock 10 minutes fast (a whole month after the murders the police went to her flat and found this was the case: hmm!), all of which meant apparently meant Bamber boasted to his girlfriend before calling the police having fabricated the call from his father. It's worth noting that the girlfriend and her flatmate both had charges relating to selling cannabis dropped in return for giving evidence. The girlfriend had just done a teaching degree and would not have been allowed to work in schools with a drugs conviction.
No forensic evidence linking him and he asked the housekeeper and relatives to clean up and sort out the house.
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All very worrying indeed!
The sad spectacle of the GF should be discounted totally IMO, the relatives had a motive or two it seems, the police seemed to have cocked up the whole thing gargantuan style in a mix of incompetence and deliberateness for reasons known to themselves, the whole judicial system seems to have been complicit to one degree or another
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Was Shiela Caffell ever tested for personality disorders?
She seemed from the little I have read to be a cogent contender for these murders
There seems to be no clear definitive proof Bamber did it...dont jump on me, its just a matter of facts
Sheila might have had mental health problems but there is nothing in her past to suggest she could have done such a thing. Whoever killed the family was proficient in the use of a .22 calibre rifle.
As for evidence that Jeremy did it, the evidence shows that Sheila didn't do it and as she and Jeremy were the only suspects it doesn't require a PHD in sleuthing to work it out.
The issue of the girlfriend, the relatives who benefitted and the blood in the sound moderator are interesting but detract nothing from the crucial forensic evidence.
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Sheila might have had mental health problems but there is nothing in her past to suggest she could have done such a thing. Whoever killed the family was proficient in the use of a .22 calibre rifle.
As for evidence that Jeremy did it, the evidence shows that Sheila didn't do it and as she and Jeremy were the only suspects it doesn't require a PHD in sleuthing to work it out.
The issue of the girlfriend, the relatives who benefitted and the blood in the sound moderator are interesting but detract nothing from the crucial forensic evidence.
I thought she had previously attempted suicide, one of the twins had 'accidentally' fallen out of a moving taxi when she was with him and she had physically assaulted her ex-husband Colin, who was worried she was too harsh with them. Also that another friend feared for his safety as well as hers on a previous occasion. In addition to telling her psychiatrist the twins were the devil's children who wanted to have sex with her . . . ?
The only evidence which shows Sheila couldn't have done it the moderator - seriously flawed evidence - and the one thing I concede is a humdinger is the lack of residue on her hands for the final two shots. I think she washed her hands (but not ritually!) before changing into a clean nightie, so may have rinsed off residue for the first 23, but there should be some residue I imagine. However the police put plastic bags over her hands and feet, which can interfere with the forensics as condensation can occur which wipes off evidence from the hands: apparently they should have used paper bags.
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Sheila might have had mental health problems but there is nothing in her past to suggest she could have done such a thing. Whoever killed the family was proficient in the use of a .22 calibre rifle.
As for evidence that Jeremy did it, the evidence shows that Sheila didn't do it and as she and Jeremy were the only suspects it doesn't require a PHD in sleuthing to work it out.
The issue of the girlfriend, the relatives who benefitted and the blood in the sound moderator are interesting but detract nothing from the crucial forensic evidence.
So what was in JB's past that suggested he could have done this far over and above SC
She lived on a farm, did she never go out shooting ever?
Doesn't it also make you wonder why the evidence is being pored over 30 years later? If it was a slam dunk would this happen? I know you know 99 per cent more than me in this case, but just asking.
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So what was in JB's past that suggested he could have done this far over and above SC
She lived on a farm, did she never go out shooting ever?
Doesn't it also make you wonder why the evidence is being pored over 30 years later? If it was a slam dunk would this happen? I know you know 99 per cent more than me in this case, but just asking.
I think it is still pored over because it was simply an unbelievably callous crime and some people still cannot accept that a young man brought up with a silver spoon to such a well healed family could have done such a dreadful thing. History teaches us however that sentiment has no place when it comes to crime.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-perfect-murder-conspiracy-flawed-only-by-a-sons-bloody-burden-of-guilt-roderick-and-mark-newall-protested-their-innocence-for-years-but-rodericks-conscience-overwhelmed-him-stephen-ward-and-christopher-elliot-tell-how-the-brothers-early-unhappiness-grew-into-violent-hate-1382310.html
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I think it is still pored over because it was simply an unbelievably callous crime and some people still cannot accept that a young man brought up with a silver spoon to such a well healed family could have done such a dreadful thing. History teaches us however that sentiment has no place when it comes to crime.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-perfect-murder-conspiracy-flawed-only-by-a-sons-bloody-burden-of-guilt-roderick-and-mark-newall-protested-their-innocence-for-years-but-rodericks-conscience-overwhelmed-him-stephen-ward-and-christopher-elliot-tell-how-the-brothers-early-unhappiness-grew-into-violent-hate-1382310.html
I think it's a mistake to think people brought up with silver spoons in their mouths don't have unhappy childhoods. That pair and Bamber and Sheila were all packed off to boarding school - in those days any number of awful things could have happened to them. I believe Sheila was expelled from 2. The only girl expelled from my school that I can recall was the deputy Head Girl who set fire to it whilst boarders were sleeping having previously caused several false alarms so that the fire alarm was turned off, so I don't think expulsion is over something flippant.
Interesting paragraph in that article:
"After Radley, where Roderick seems to have been popular without distinguishing himself, he went to Sandhurst in 1983, and joined the Royal Green Jackets, the most socially prestigious infantry regiment, rose to Lieutenant, and served in Germany and Northern Ireland. His military training taught him not only to kill, but how to avoid being watched or followed and how to handle interrogation."
He rose to Lieutenant, eh? That's one up from where he started and pretty much a given. Absolutely ludicrous to say he was trained how to avoid being watched and how to handle interrogation: anyone would think he was in the SAS. It shows how reporters ramp up the detail.
I've always thought it odd that Bamber would have pre-planned the murder - which could have waited for the next visit to the farm - to take place during the harvest. They were only tenant farmers, had a large mortgage for other properties they had bought to let and the farm was mostly arable: screwing up the harvest could have bankrupt the business he was supposedly killing them for.
Greshams wasn't a first-rate school and their lives were fairly ordinary but came with the benefits-in-kind that come with farming, like a big old house and business assets which lower the tax exposure being used for technically non-farming use - like Bamber's car. My brother-in-law's kids all have cars, Blackberries and regular tanks if petrol, for example: if the silly sod had died falling through the roof however (either time! 8(0(* ) they would have had a mountain of debt and lost the goodies. A farm is nothing over-night without the knowledge of the person who farmed it for the last 20 years, who acquired the knowledge of the farmer before that with a long hand-over. A farm is essentially a key-man business.
If Bamber did it, it was not for money.
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I think it's a mistake to think people brought up with silver spoons in their mouths don't have unhappy childhoods. That pair and Bamber and Sheila were all packed off to boarding school - in those days any number of awful things could have happened to them. I believe Sheila was expelled from 2. The only girl expelled from my school that I can recall was the deputy Head Girl who set fire to it whilst boarders were sleeping having previously caused several false alarms so that the fire alarm was turned off, so I don't think expulsion is over something flippant.
Interesting paragraph in that article:
"After Radley, where Roderick seems to have been popular without distinguishing himself, he went to Sandhurst in 1983, and joined the Royal Green Jackets, the most socially prestigious infantry regiment, rose to Lieutenant, and served in Germany and Northern Ireland. His military training taught him not only to kill, but how to avoid being watched or followed and how to handle interrogation."
He rose to Lieutenant, eh? That's one up from where he started and pretty much a given. Absolutely ludicrous to say he was trained how to avoid being watched and how to handle interrogation: anyone would think he was in the SAS. It shows how reporters ramp up the detail.
I've always thought it odd that Bamber would have pre-planned the murder - which could have waited for the next visit to the farm - to take place during the harvest. They were only tenant farmers, had a large mortgage for other properties they had bought to let and the farm was mostly arable: screwing up the harvest could have bankrupt the business he was supposedly killing them for.
Greshams wasn't a first-rate school and their lives were fairly ordinary but came with the benefits-in-kind that come with farming, like a big old house and business assets which lower the tax exposure being used for technically non-farming use - like Bamber's car. My brother-in-law's kids all have cars, Blackberries and regular tanks if petrol, for example: if the silly sod had died falling through the roof however (either time! 8(0(* ) they would have had a mountain of debt and lost the goodies. A farm is nothing over-night without the knowledge of the person who farmed it for the last 20 years, who acquired the knowledge of the farmer before that with a long hand-over. A farm is essentially a key-man business.
If Bamber did it, it was not for money.
The timing was crucial, he needed them all together at the same time.
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The timing was crucial, he needed them all together at the same time.
Yet it was on the cards they would move up near the farm, in which case they'd all be together quite often. And there's always Christmas.
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Besides, one might just as well argue that she needed them all together for a family annihilation - but couldn't enact it anywhere except the farm where there was a gun. Family Annihilators almost always use a gun.
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But there was no need for Sheila to murder her mother and father (even if she thought they were going to claim custody, which was joint with Colin anyway). If she was intent on killing the twins and committing suicide, she could have done so with a knife and jumped off the top of Morshead Mansions, in a similar way to Theresa Riggi...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363755/Theresa-Riggi-admits-killing-3-children-locked-custody-battle-husband.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363755/Theresa-Riggi-admits-killing-3-children-locked-custody-battle-husband.html)
Unlike her brother, I don't think Sheila had one scheming nerve cell in her brain. According to her best friends, the Tomkinsons, she needed help to get started and buy the items needed to decorate a room in her flat.
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Why would she make such a pig's ear of her first (not immediately fatal ) neck shot, when she'd already fired accurate head shots at the rest of the family?
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Well quite easily given shooting someone else is a simple point-and-press job, whereas shooting yourself involves lying the gun along the length of your body, pulling the trigger away from you because it is now reversed, and having to angle your head right. How could Bamber make such a pig's ear of it, as he was used to the gun, a crack shot, had no trouble shooting everyone else and apparently had his sister's complete cooperation.
Especially as he knew she should only be shot once.
I must look up some more info about Family Annihilators so you can see they take out everyone - and plan it in advance. I reckon she could have been hoping Colin would stay.
Feeling a bit burnt-out playing 'fetch' on the Dewani thread, so doubt it will be tonight.
I know you're all sick of me droning on about South Africa, but it did have a very high rate of Family Annihilators - something like the Bamber case happens every other weekend - and it always struck me as odd that the maid (as they like to be known) would get out unharmed, but they would frequently invite the in-laws or parents over, or they'd go over to negotiated, then they'd be shot as well. It seems from what I've read about Family Annihilators that that's quite common, as it's just their family they want to kill - in Sheila's case she might have fallen into the category that thinks they are saving everyone from a bad world and they'll all be reunited happily in the afterlife. It's practically a mercy-mission in their eyes. I believe it came out that Sheila had told her therapist her children were sons of the Devil and she was afraid she might kill them, as well as having suicide attempts.
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Feeling a bit burnt-out playing 'fetch' on the Dewani thread, so doubt it will be tonight.
I quite understand... you must be exhausted from admiring that aerial view of the new Oscar Pisstorius running track. @)(++(*
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I think it is still pored over because it was simply an unbelievably callous crime and some people still cannot accept that a young man brought up with a silver spoon to such a well healed family could have done such a dreadful thing. History teaches us however that sentiment has no place when it comes to crime.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-perfect-murder-conspiracy-flawed-only-by-a-sons-bloody-burden-of-guilt-roderick-and-mark-newall-protested-their-innocence-for-years-but-rodericks-conscience-overwhelmed-him-stephen-ward-and-christopher-elliot-tell-how-the-brothers-early-unhappiness-grew-into-violent-hate-1382310.html
Evidence is not poured over for three decades when there is a conviction and 99 per cent believe it is safe although there is horror at crimes committed. What other "solved cases" does this happen in?
Its not as if it's an unsolved mystery is it?
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I quite understand... you must be exhausted from admiring that aerial view of the new Oscar Pisstorius running track. @)(++(*
Quite! 8)-)))
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Evidence is not poured over for three decades when there is a conviction and 99 per cent believe it is safe although there is horror at crimes committed. What other "solved cases" does this happen in?
Its not as if it's an unsolved mystery is it?
Looking through the site it seems one of the extraordinary aspects of this case is how much primary material is in the public domain compared to others, which contributes to us pouring over it!
I think the intriguing thing is just one you think it's one, you discovered which means it could equally be the other. But I think part of the trouble in solving the riddle is in assuming firstly that it was spontaneous if it was Sheila - it's much more likely to be every bit as premeditated as it was if it was Bamber - and secondly to assume Nevill was asleep in the bedroom when it started.
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I don't know why anyone insists on trying to pin various personality disorders on JB when he has been formally assessed by numerous qualified personnel and none has been identified. No psychopathy. No sociopath. No narcisstic immunity.
Sure the polygraph might be BS.
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Why would he not allow the police to examine his medical records in '85? &%+((£
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Why would he not allow the police to examine his medical records in '85? &%+((£
I thought it was his adoption file?
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I thought it was his adoption file?
Could have been... although before trial he was reluctant to submit to medical examination. According to CAL - six years later in Full Sutton further reports concluded that he was 'personable, intelligent and cunning . . . inwardly cold and unfeeling'.
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Could have been... although before trial he was reluctant to submit to medical examination. According to CAL - six years later in Full Sutton further reports concluded that he was 'personable, intelligent and [cunning . . . inwardly cold and unfeeling'.
Whether JB is guilty or innocent I would imagine the above is a natural outcome of spending years as a Cat A prisoner. Or maybe I just suffer from confirmation bias &%+((£
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I don't understand why lay people want to label JB a psychopath when the likes of Prof Egan have undertaken a formal assessment of JB and found no case for even "mild psychopathy".
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
The fact JB has not been formally diagnosed with any mental illness or psychopathy doesn't make him innocent. No more than passing a lie detector test does.
We haven't seen all 27 test results but I can't imagine a situation where Prof Egan would not have looked through JB's entire prison file, including previous assessments, to make the comments he has.
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Barrister Flo Krause acted for JB with regard to downgrading his category. She claims the following:
"There was never any direct evidence in this case, no motive was ever established and even psychology cannot identify any factor in Jeremy's profile that could help understand why he might have done it. If ever a reasonable doubt existed, this must be the case for it."
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/patrons-and-supporters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7335058.stm
Again, as with Prof Egan, I find it difficult to believe that Flo Krause did not go through JB's prison file with a fine- tooth comb over, including all assessments, when she was arguing in court for a downgrade of category.
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Barrister Flo Krause acted for JB with regard to downgrading his category. She claims the following:
"There was never any direct evidence in this case, no motive was ever established and even psychology cannot identify any factor in Jeremy's profile that could help understand why he might have done it. If ever a reasonable doubt existed, this must be the case for it."
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/patrons-and-supporters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7335058.stm
Again, as with Prof Egan, I find it difficult to believe that Flo Krause did not go through JB's prison file with a fine- tooth comb over, including all assessments, when she was arguing in court for a downgrade of category.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9436.msg460092#msg460092
Jackiepreece: "All I can say is good luck,nice scam Jeremy http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1775.0
Grahame: "Truth is he has done this to several people, just dumped them when they outlive their usefulness. Let this be a warning to everybody who consider themselves to be "personal friends" with him, be careful because I guarantee that you will get hurt.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1775.msg55653.html#msg55653
Daisy:The Real Jeremy Bamber http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3187.msg119150#msg119150
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Barrister Flo Krause acted for JB with regard to downgrading his category. She claims the following:
"There was never any direct evidence in this case, no motive was ever established and even psychology cannot identify any factor in Jeremy's profile that could help understand why he might have done it. If ever a reasonable doubt existed, this must be the case for it."
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/patrons-and-supporters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7335058.stm
Again, as with Prof Egan, I find it difficult to believe that Flo Krause did not go through JB's prison file with a fine- tooth comb over, including all assessments, when she was arguing in court for a downgrade of category.
What is 'direct evidence'. A robber being caught on CCTV leaving a bank with a bag saying 'SWAG' on. Or someone's blood, fingerprints, hair & clothes fibers being on a murdered body ?
As for 'forensic evidence breakthrough', the last one I remember was on the clothes of David Norris & Gary Dobson.
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What is 'direct evidence'. A robber being caught on CCTV leaving a bank with a bag saying 'SWAG' on. Or someone's blood, fingerprints, hair & clothes fibers being on a murdered body ?
As for 'forensic evidence breakthrough', the last one I remember was on the clothes of David Norris & Gary Dobson.
Flo Krause claimed, "and even psychology cannot identify any factor in Jeremy's profile that could help understand why he might have done it."
ALL of Bambers psychology assessments have been based on his denial therefore making them ALL false positive errors!
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9436.msg460092#msg460092
Jackiepreece: "All I can say is good luck,nice scam Jeremy http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1775.0
Grahame: "Truth is he has done this to several people, just dumped them when they outlive their usefulness. Let this be a warning to everybody who consider themselves to be "personal friends" with him, be careful because I guarantee that you will get hurt.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1775.msg55653.html#msg55653
Daisy:The Real Jeremy Bamber http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3187.msg119150#msg119150
Convicted killers should not be allowed access to the outside world except for immediate next of kin and their lawyer.
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Convicted killers should not be allowed access to the outside world except for immediate next of kin and their lawyer.
You could always write to David Gauke https://www.gov.uk/government/people/david-gauke
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Convicted killers should not be allowed access to the outside world except for immediate next of kin and their lawyer.
I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but what about those who insist that they're innocent -although I'll guarantee not as many are as SAY they are -because they seem to be able to claim a certain hierarchy within the prison system in that they're not QUITE guilty. Such restrictions would certainly curtail much of Jeremy's activities.
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Barrister Flo Krause acted for JB with regard to downgrading his category. She claims the following:
"There was never any direct evidence in this case, no motive was ever established and even psychology cannot identify any factor in Jeremy's profile that could help understand why he might have done it. If ever a reasonable doubt existed, this must be the case for it."
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/patrons-and-supporters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7335058.stm
Again, as with Prof Egan, I find it difficult to believe that Flo Krause did not go through JB's prison file with a fine- tooth comb over, including all assessments, when she was arguing in court for a downgrade of category.
Of course he had a motive, inheritence.
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I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but what about those who insist that they're innocent -although I'll guarantee not as many are as SAY they are -because they seem to be able to claim a certain hierarchy within the prison system in that they're not QUITE guilty. Such restrictions would certainly curtail much of Jeremy's activities.
The government could introduce tighter restrictions on whole life tariff prisoners like Bamber. That could be a start. We know Bamber only maintains innocence because he is a coward and enjoys the attention his infamy brings him.
Prison security staff, especially where whole life tariff prisoners are held, should be monitoring all incoming and outgoing mail, phone calls etc but it's not happening.
I very much doubt Daisy's complaint was dealt with, other than being recorded on Bambers security file. It may not have even been recorded.
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Could have been... although before trial he was reluctant to submit to medical examination. According to CAL - six years later in Full Sutton further reports concluded that he was 'personable, intelligent and cunning . . . inwardly cold and unfeeling'.
A psychopath!
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Whether JB is guilty or innocent I would imagine the above is a natural outcome of spending years as a Cat A prisoner. Or maybe I just suffer from confirmation bias &%+((£
Adoption maybe?
Multiple carerers maybe?
Attachment issues maybe?
Inability to express emotion maybe?
Jeremy Bamber has publicly claimed he has not been effected by his incarceration!
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I don't understand why lay people want to label JB a psychopath when the likes of Prof Egan have undertaken a formal assessment of JB and found no case for even "mild psychopathy".
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
The fact JB has not been formally diagnosed with any mental illness or psychopathy doesn't make him innocent. No more than passing a lie detector test does.
We haven't seen all 27 test results but I can't imagine a situation where Prof Egan would not have looked through JB's entire prison file, including previous assessments, to make the comments he has.
That's really quite simply and it comes from whether you believe he is innocent or guilty. An innocent Jeremy Bamber probably wouldn't be a psychopath, a guilty one (however) most certainly would be. Not only did he kill his entire family (including two sleeping six year olds), but he has never taken responsibility and chooses instead, to play he victim of a MOJ. The PCL-R is not an accurate measure of psychopathy anyway https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693491
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That's really quite simply and it comes from whether you believe he is innocent or guilty. An innocent Jeremy Bamber probably wouldn't be a psychopath, a guilty on (however) most certainly would be. Not only did he kill his entire family (including two sleeping six year olds), but he has never taken responsibility and chooses instead, to play he victim of a MOJ. The PCL-R is not an accurate measure of psychopathy ayway https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693491
And
ALL of Bambers psychology assessments have been based on his denial therefore making them ALL false positive errors!
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That's really quite simply and it comes from whether you believe he is innocent or guilty. An innocent Jeremy Bamber probably wouldn't be a psychopath, a guilty one (however) most certainly would be. Not only did he kill his entire family (including two sleeping six year olds), but he has never taken responsibility and chooses instead, to play he victim of a MOJ. The PCL-R is not an accurate measure of psychopathy anyway https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693491
It takes a really sick depraved psychologically disturbed individual to shoot two sleeping six-year-olds multiple times in the head. Even a hired gun would have severe qualms about such a thing imo.
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It takes a really sick depraved psychologically disturbed individual to shoot two sleeping six-year-olds multiple times in the head. Even a hired gun would have severe qualms about such a thing imo.
The Jeremy Bamber "groupies" are fighting a losing battle.
Bamber is doomed to fail no matter what and he knows it; hence why he wages his wars on his "friends" & "supporters" and anyone else who'll give him the time of day
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You could always write to David Gauke https://www.gov.uk/government/people/david-gauke
Excerpt from my communication with Mr Gauke
Dear Mr Gauke,
I am contacting you regarding my grave concerns of convicted prisoner Jeremy Bamber, A5352AC, c/o HMP Wakefield
Jeremy Bamber is serving a whole life tariff for the murder of 5 family members. He has publicly maintained innocence for over 3 decades however there is no evidence to suggest he is innocent.
I am a surviving victim of a convicted prisoner not dissimilar to Jeremy Bamber who also maintained innocence for over a decade before confessing his guilt from an open prison in 2013. His name was Simon Hall
Like Jeremy Bamber, he also conned prison psychologists and many others into believing he was low risk to the public, and others, in order to support his claims of innocence.
Following on from the John Worboys case where it was established,
"The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.
What safeguards are in place, if any, to ensure prisoners like Jeremy Bamber are not conning psychologists like Simon Hall and John Worboys clearly did?
Pre trial, Jeremy Bamber's defence team learned he was a psychopath however Jeremy Bamber promotes the following https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/ via his campaign website.
These prisoners use coercive control and all number of psychological manipulation tactics to exploit their victims yet our Government and indeed UK prisons do not appear to be addressing these quite apparent crimes nor do the prisons appear to intervene or care; even though they have a duty to protect the public from prisoners like this.
I have come into contact with many of Jeremy Bamber's victims and have read their harrowing stories of how he tried to con them, or befriend them, for the sole purpose of using them, as Simon Hall once did me.
I am asking you, on behalf of Her Majesty's Prisons and Probation service to intervene and do more to project the victims from prisoners like this.
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Excepts from my communication with Mr Gauke
Dear Mr Gauke,
I am contacting you regarding my grave concerns of convicted prisoner Jeremy Bamber, A5352AC, c/o HMP Wakefield
Jeremy Bamber is serving a whole life tariff for the murder of 5 family members. He has publicly maintained innocence for over 3 decades however there is no evidence to suggest he is innocent.
I am a surviving victim of a convicted prisoner not dissimilar to Jeremy Bamber who also maintained innocence for over a decade before confessing his guilt from an open prison in 2013. His name was Simon Hall
Like Jeremy Bamber, he also conned prison psychologists and many others into believing he was low risk to the public, and others, in order to support his claims of innocence.
Following on from the John Worboys case where it was established,
"The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.
What safeguards are in place, if any, to ensure prisoners like Jeremy Bamber are not conning psychologists like Simon Hall and John Worboys clearly did?
Pre trial, Jeremy Bamber's defence team learned he was a psychopath however Jeremy Bamber promotes the following https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/ via his campaign website.
These prisoners use coercive control and all number of psychological manipulation tactics to exploit their victims yet our Government and indeed UK prisons do not appear to be addressing these quite apparent crimes nor do the prisons appear to intervene or care; even though they have a duty to protect the public from prisoners like this.
I have come into contact with many of Jeremy Bamber's victims and have read their harrowing stories of how he tried to con them, or befriend them, for the sole purpose of using them, as Simon Hall once did me.
I am asking you, on behalf of Her Majesty's Prisons and Probation service to intervene and do more to project the victims from prisoners like this.
Links of interest https://consult.justice.gov.uk/homeoffice-moj/domestic-abuse-consultation/
https://consult.justice.gov.uk/homeoffice-moj/domestic-abuse-consultation/supporting_documents/Transforming%20the%20response%20to%20domestic%20abuse.pdf
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Excepts from my communication with Mr Gauke
Dear Mr Gauke,
I am contacting you regarding my grave concerns of convicted prisoner Jeremy Bamber, A5352AC, c/o HMP Wakefield
Jeremy Bamber is serving a whole life tariff for the murder of 5 family members. He has publicly maintained innocence for over 3 decades however there is no evidence to suggest he is innocent.
I am a surviving victim of a convicted prisoner not dissimilar to Jeremy Bamber who also maintained innocence for over a decade before confessing his guilt from an open prison in 2013. His name was Simon Hall
Like Jeremy Bamber, he also conned prison psychologists and many others into believing he was low risk to the public, and others, in order to support his claims of innocence.
Following on from the John Worboys case where it was established,
"The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.
What safeguards are in place, if any, to ensure prisoners like Jeremy Bamber are not conning psychologists like Simon Hall and John Worboys clearly did?
Pre trial, Jeremy Bamber's defence team learned he was a psychopath however Jeremy Bamber promotes the following https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/ via his campaign website.
These prisoners use coercive control and all number of psychological manipulation tactics to exploit their victims yet our Government and indeed UK prisons do not appear to be addressing these quite apparent crimes nor do the prisons appear to intervene or care; even though they have a duty to protect the public from prisoners like this.
I have come into contact with many of Jeremy Bamber's victims and have read their harrowing stories of how he tried to con them, or befriend them, for the sole purpose of using them, as Simon Hall once did me.
I am asking you, on behalf of Her Majesty's Prisons and Probation service to intervene and do more to project the victims from prisoners like this.
Is Eric Allison still in support of Bambers claims of Innocence?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/29/john-worboys-indeterminate-sentences-ipp-prisoners
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I don't understand why lay people want to label JB a psychopath when the likes of Prof Egan have undertaken a formal assessment of JB and found no case for even "mild psychopathy".
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Remind us how long did this assessment take and what ‘mask’ did Bamber present at the time?
And what paperwork did Prof Egan rely on in order to carry out his assessment? Have you seen them? What if what he relied on was flawed?
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Remind us how long did this assessment take and what ‘mask’ did Bamber present at the time?
And what paperwork did Prof Egan rely on in order to carry out his assessment? Have you seen them? What if what he relied on was flawed?
There have certainly been instances where prisoners have been released and have reoffended, so we know that mistakes can be made. What I don't understand is the obsession with psychopathy. Not all murderers are psychopaths and not all psychopaths are murderers, so why do some see it as so important to portray Bamber as a psychopath?
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There have certainly been instances where prisoners have been released and have reoffended, so we know that mistakes can be made. What I don't understand is the obsession with psychopathy. Not all murderers are psychopaths and not all psychopaths are murderers, so why do some see it as so important to portray Bamber as a psychopath?
Would it alter your opinion of his involvement if it was confirmed (to your satisfaction) that he was a psychopath? How would a diagnosis of psychopathy in Kate or Gerry McCann figure in your discussions of that particular case? I guess it just wouldn't right? LOL.
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There have certainly been instances where prisoners have been released and have reoffended, so we know that mistakes can be made. What I don't understand is the obsession with psychopathy. Not all murderers are psychopaths and not all psychopaths are murderers, so why do some see it as so important to portray Bamber as a psychopath?
Seriously? Obviously you believe the man is innocent, but what kind of mind do you think it would take to kill both his parents, his 6 year old nephews and his sister - then stage it to look like she was responsible? You think an empathetic person could do this and at the end of it, just think all about themselves and getting away with it? He's a psychopath - no question!
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Seriously? Obviously you believe the man is innocent, but what kind of mind do you think it would take to kill both his parents, his 6 year old nephews and his sister - then stage it to look like she was responsible? You think an empathetic person could do this and at the end of it, just think all about themselves and getting away with it? He's a psychopath - no question!
Do you have any evidence that it was necessary to be psychopathic to commit such a crime, or is it just your opinion?
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Do you have any evidence that it was necessary to be psychopathic to commit such a crime, or is it just your opinion?
How would it be possible to commit such a crime and not be a psychopath? I would point out that having psychopathic traits, doesn't necessarily equate with being a psychopath, and not all psychopaths murder.
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I would point out that having psychopathic traits, doesn't necessarily equate with being a psychopath,
?
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Do you have any evidence that it was necessary to be psychopathic to commit such a crime, or is it just your opinion?
psychopaths are largely identified by the things they do and the way they behave. Agreed? There is no spot in the brain labelled “psychopath” for easy identification as far as I’m aware, although I know there have been attempts at finding one.
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How would it be possible to commit such a crime and not be a psychopath? I would point out that having psychopathic traits, doesn't necessarily equate with being a psychopath, and not all psychopaths murder.
So if he committed the crime he's a psychopath?
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So if he committed the crime he's a psychopath?
What would you call someone who kills their entire family for financial gain? A naughty person?
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What would you call someone who kills their entire family for financial gain? A naughty person?
Well as I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist I wouldn't presume to diagnose them as a psychopath.
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Well as I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist I wouldn't presume to diagnose them as a psychopath.
I’m not patissiere but I can tell the difference between a trifle and a fruitcake, G-Unit. And one shouldn’t need to be a psychiatrist to realise any man who can coldly pre-plan and carry out the murders of his mother, father, sister & two six-year-old nephews has to be psychopathic.
Besides, we don’t need to try and understand his psyche — the consultant prison psychiatrist did that when Jeremy Bamber was on remand, and diagnosed him as psychopath.
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So if he committed the crime he's a psychopath?
Why are you so keen for him not to be?
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Well as I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist I wouldn't presume to diagnose them as a psychopath.
I really don’t think it’s possible to murder your entire family including little children for your own financial gain and not be considered a psychopath by any reasonable person. The actions speak for themselves do they not?
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I’m not patissiere but I can tell the difference between a trifle and a fruitcake, G-Unit. And one shouldn’t need to be a psychiatrist to realise any man who can coldly pre-plan and carry out the murders of his mother, father, sister & two six-year-old nephews has to be psychopathic.
Besides, we don’t need to try and understand his psyche — the consultant prison psychiatrist did that when Jeremy Bamber was on remand, and diagnosed him as psychopath.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* - That did make me laugh!
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Well as I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist I wouldn't presume to diagnose them as a psychopath.
Do you need a meteorologist to tell you if it's raining?
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What would you call someone who kills their entire family for financial gain? A naughty person?
Sick
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I’m not patissiere but I can tell the difference between a trifle and a fruitcake, G-Unit. And one shouldn’t need to be a psychiatrist to realise any man who can coldly pre-plan and carry out the murders of his mother, father, sister & two six-year-old nephews has to be psychopathic.
Besides, we don’t need to try and understand his psyche — the consultant prison psychiatrist did that when Jeremy Bamber was on remand, and diagnosed him as psychopath.
Please provide a cite/source or even a name.
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Why are you so keen for him not to be?
Why are you so keen for him to be?
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I really don’t think it’s possible to murder your entire family including little children for your own financial gain and not be considered a psychopath by any reasonable person. The actions speak for themselves do they not?
There's not a shred of evidence JB has ever been diagnosed with any personality disorder or mental illness.
What about other so called inheritance killers were they all diagnosed with psychopathy?
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@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* - That did make me laugh!
I'm not sure why when pattiseries are not known for trifle and fruitcake.
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Do you need a meteorologist to tell you if it's raining?
Do you need a meteorologist to tell you if it's not raining?
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If people want to post to the effect that JB is a psychopath that's up to them providing they make clear its their opinion in the absence of a cite/source containing the name of an appropriately qualified person who has made a formal diagnosis of psychopathy.
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Why are you so keen for him not to be?
I don't care either way. I just don't like speculation.
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If people want to post to the effect that JB is a psychopath that's up to them providing they make clear its their opinion in the absence of a cite/source containing the name of an appropriately qualified person who has made a formal diagnosis of psychopathy.
Such, I imagine, providing you with a satisfying and all encompassing comfort blanket. Whilst it may allow you the security of belief that it never happened, as with the majority of what you choose to disregard, it almost certainly has.
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Sick
Thank you. Sick is a layman’s term. How would that sickness be diagnosed and labelled by a professional do you suppose?
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There's not a shred of evidence JB has ever been diagnosed with any personality disorder or mental illness.
What about other so called inheritance killers were they all diagnosed with psychopathy?
Such as who? Gimme some names and I’ll look them up.
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Due to the current activity levels on the board we need to maintain the following rule set out on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
Going forward I will be removing all posts that are off topic.
Thanks.