UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on February 23, 2016, 12:40:43 PM
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According to another forum member there are many examples of seemingly loving parents who have covered up the tragic accidental death of one of their children. Off hand I can't think of any but would be grateful if some of the many examples that exist could be posted on this thread for discussion. Thanks.
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According to another forum member there are many examples of seemingly loving parents who have covered up the tragic accidental death of one of their children. Off hand I can't think of any but would be grateful if some of the many examples that exist could be posted on this thread for discussion. Thanks.
I think this is going to be a very short thread, Alfred.
There are thousands of recorded examples of abusive and neglectful parents who have attempted to cover up the death of a child.
I cannot think of one example when such an event was engineered by loving parents with no such history of neglect or mental illness. Why would they?
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Loads of examples of "seemingly" loving parents and perhaps they were up to some point but ended up killing by accident or murdering their children, none come to mind covering up an "accidental death" that happened to their kids outwith their direct presence though
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Loads of examples of "seemingly" loving parents and perhaps they were up to some point but ended up killing by accident or murdering their children, none come to mind covering up an "accidental death" that happened to their kids outwith their direct presence though
Then providing cites to these "loads of examples" won't give you too much of a problem then?
I await with interest.
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Then providing cites to these "loads of examples" won't give you too much of a problem then?
I await with interest.
Are you serious? You have never read of parents killing their children? What are you on?
Yes, that's right, "loads"
Perhaps to be fair, in your fervour, you didn't read my post properly, so try again, night chuck
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Can I please clarify? The claim was that there are "many" examples of seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of their child, not about parents killing or causing the death of a child. So let's get some examples to look at....
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Mucnausen-by-proxy?
http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/munchausen.html
Don't know that there all that many examples.
None remotely applicable to the McCanns, obviously ....
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I think this is going to be a very short thread, Alfred.
There are thousands of recorded examples of abusive and neglectful parents who have attempted to cover up the death of a child.
I cannot think of one example when such an event was engineered by loving parents with no such history of neglect or mental illness. Why would they?
Well haven't those same parents claimed they were loving and caring of their children ?
It seems you are trying to show if examples can't be found perusing the internet , then it never happens or has never happened.
The trouble is, with your loaded thread title, that you seem to omit that not all cases of death/murder appear on the net, so by your 'logic' , it can't happen.
Your view is rather like the old myth that bumblebees should not be able to fly, which if i recall correctly is one of the precepts of creationists and therefore proof that the laws of physics aren't real.
Essentially, your thread is yet another attempted defense of the mccanns, and no matter what you say, you forget one prime motivation for covering up an accident...
Self preservation.
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Well haven't those same parents claimed they were loving and caring of their children ?
It seems you are trying to show if examples can't be found perusing the internet , then it never happens or has never happened.
The trouble is, with your loaded thread title, that you seem to omit that not all cases of death/murder appear on the net, so by your 'logic' , it can't happen.
Your view is rather like the old myth that bumblebees should not be able to fly, which if i recall correctly is one of the precepts of creationists and therefore proof that the laws of physics aren't real.
Essentially, your thread is yet another attempted defense of the mccanns, and no matter what you say, you forget one prime motivation for covering up an accident...
Self preservation.
what accident...self preservation ...rubbish......just a sceptic myth...believed by the gullible
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Mucnausen-by-proxy?
http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/munchausen.html
Don't know that there all that many examples.
None remotely applicable to the McCanns, obviously ....
Those individuals set out to deliberately harm a child in order to draw attention to themselves, if I'm not very much mistaken...? A different kettle of fish and not what I am looking for examples of.
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Well haven't those same parents claimed they were loving and caring of their children ?
It seems you are trying to show if examples can't be found perusing the internet , then it never happens or has never happened.
The trouble is, with your loaded thread title, that you seem to omit that not all cases of death/murder appear on the net, so by your 'logic' , it can't happen.
Your view is rather like the old myth that bumblebees should not be able to fly, which if i recall correctly is one of the precepts of creationists and therefore proof that the laws of physics aren't real.
Essentially, your thread is yet another attempted defense of the mccanns, and no matter what you say, you forget one prime motivation for covering up an accident...
Self preservation.
It's my thread actually, and I posted it in an attempt to get some answers - a claim was made here, unsubstantiated by the claimant who repeatedly refused to provide examples. Perhaps you can help her out? Loving parents who have covered up the tragic accidental death of a child - there are many such occurrences apparently.
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It's my thread actually, and I posted it in an attempt to get some answers - a claim was made here, unsubstantiated by the claimant who repeatedly refused to provide examples. Perhaps you can help her out? Loving parents who have covered up the tragic accidental death of a child - there are many such occurrences apparently.
Loving parents who have covered up the death of their child, then go out for dinner and laugh and act as if nothing has happened, never read about that anywhere.
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Loving parents who have covered up the death of their child, then go out for dinner and laugh and act as if nothing has happened, never read about that anywhere.
So there are never cover ups of accidents and/or crimes ?
Wow.
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So there are never cover ups of accidents and/or crimes ?
Wow.
Apparently there are many examples of loving parents covering up the tragic accidental deaths of their kids, the problem I have is that I can't seem to find any, perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place?
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heres one right here in the us said it was the babysitter!!!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6953798/Two-year-old-killed-in-house-fire-after-mum-left-her-home-alone-to-work-as-a-stripper.html?CMP=spklr-_-Editorial-_-FBPAGE-_-TheSun-thesun-_-20160225-_-News-_-377264722-_-Imageandlink
Tragic two-year-old girl killed in house fire after mum left her home alone while she went to work as a stripper
Distraught mum tries to blame babysitter before tearful confession
A TWO-YEAR-OLD girl was killed in a house fire when she was left alone by her mother, who was out working as a stripper.
The terrified little girl hid under her bed as the flat was consumed in flames — and firefighters didn’t even know she was there after they doused the blaze at 7:30 a.m on Tuesday.
They discovered little Kalenah Muldrow’s body only when her 20-year-old mother, Leila Aquino, returned home and notified police that her baby had been upstairs, sources said.
Tot Dies
Firefighters had no idea toddler was trapped inside burning building Gregory P. Mango / New York Post
“The mother was distraught. She came up, she saw the fire and she said she didn’t know where her baby was,” said a neighbour, Lisette Smith.
“She went into the building. She said, ‘Where’s my baby? I just want to find my baby.’”
Tot Dies
Leila Aquino told officers she left her daughter with a babysitter Instagram
When Aquino arrived home to find the tragic scene, she was carrying a box that contained $980 — all in $1 bills, tips she had earned from her night of dancing at a gentleman’s club, sources said.
When she learned that her child was dead, Aquino collapsed to the ground in tears.
She initially told police she had left the girl with a babysitter and went out, sources said.
READ MORE:
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‘I wouldn’t have him back...even for £32m’ says first wife of Brit Lotto winner Gerry Cannings
How Kesha’s claims of rape, bullying and abuse expose the dark side of the music industry
But the babysitter denied that claim, saying, in fact, that she had stopped working for Aquino earlier this month because the pole-dancing mom owed her money.
When confronted with the conflicting information, Aquino broke down and admitted she had been working at a strip bar overnight, sources said.
She was questioned at a police station near her home in Brooklyn, New York, on Tuesday night where she was charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of a child.
Tot Dies
Tragic Kalenah's body was found after firefighters put out the blaze Instagram
The Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office is already investigating the case.
Some people outraged by the incident left messages on Aquino’s social-media page.
“I’m trying to understand why would u leave a two year old home alone,” Tonya Houston wrote.
“Do you not have a conscious? RIP baby girl.”
Fire officials suspect the blaze started because of a portable heater that was left on in the apartment.
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So there are never cover ups of accidents and/or crimes ?
Wow.
Did I say that?
I said loving parents who go out to dinner afterwards and laugh and joke normally as if nothing has happened, they just wouldn't be able to do it, and then when they find their child gone put on an act worthy of a bafta award.
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Did I say that?
I said loving parents who go out to dinner afterwards and laugh and joke normally as if nothing has happened, they just wouldn't be able to do it, and then when they find their child gone put on an act worthy of a bafta award.
That is your belief.
No more and certainly no less.
It does not mean people won't cover up an accident.
After all, doctors have to be able to deal with accidents and be dispassionate.
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That is your belief.
No more and certainly no less.
It does not mean people won't cover up an accident.
After all, doctors have to be able to deal with accidents and be dispassionate.
Not accidents that involve their own child!!!
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Not accidents that involve their own child!!!
Remind me of what doctors are trained to do ?
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Remind me of what doctors are trained to do ?
What ever they are trained to do, it is different when it is your own child.
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What ever they are trained to do, it is different when it is your own child.
That is your belief.
So how would a doctor then deal with an emergency with their own child, with a life threatening condition, if no other doctor was available ?
Would they just stand there ?
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heres one right here in the us said it was the babysitter!!!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6953798/Two-year-old-killed-in-house-fire-after-mum-left-her-home-alone-to-work-as-a-stripper.html?CMP=spklr-_-Editorial-_-FBPAGE-_-TheSun-thesun-_-20160225-_-News-_-377264722-_-Imageandlink
Tragic two-year-old girl killed in house fire after mum left her home alone while she went to work as a stripper
Distraught mum tries to blame babysitter before tearful confession
A TWO-YEAR-OLD girl was killed in a house fire when she was left alone by her mother, who was out working as a stripper.
The terrified little girl hid under her bed as the flat was consumed in flames — and firefighters didn’t even know she was there after they doused the blaze at 7:30 a.m on Tuesday.
They discovered little Kalenah Muldrow’s body only when her 20-year-old mother, Leila Aquino, returned home and notified police that her baby had been upstairs, sources said.
Tot Dies
Firefighters had no idea toddler was trapped inside burning building Gregory P. Mango / New York Post
“The mother was distraught. She came up, she saw the fire and she said she didn’t know where her baby was,” said a neighbour, Lisette Smith.
“She went into the building. She said, ‘Where’s my baby? I just want to find my baby.’”
Tot Dies
Leila Aquino told officers she left her daughter with a babysitter Instagram
When Aquino arrived home to find the tragic scene, she was carrying a box that contained $980 — all in $1 bills, tips she had earned from her night of dancing at a gentleman’s club, sources said.
When she learned that her child was dead, Aquino collapsed to the ground in tears.
She initially told police she had left the girl with a babysitter and went out, sources said.
READ MORE:
Dramatic footage of ISIS suicide car being destroyed by Kurd missile on the frontline in Syria
‘I wouldn’t have him back...even for £32m’ says first wife of Brit Lotto winner Gerry Cannings
How Kesha’s claims of rape, bullying and abuse expose the dark side of the music industry
But the babysitter denied that claim, saying, in fact, that she had stopped working for Aquino earlier this month because the pole-dancing mom owed her money.
When confronted with the conflicting information, Aquino broke down and admitted she had been working at a strip bar overnight, sources said.
She was questioned at a police station near her home in Brooklyn, New York, on Tuesday night where she was charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of a child.
Tot Dies
Tragic Kalenah's body was found after firefighters put out the blaze Instagram
The Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office is already investigating the case.
Some people outraged by the incident left messages on Aquino’s social-media page.
“I’m trying to understand why would u leave a two year old home alone,” Tonya Houston wrote.
“Do you not have a conscious? RIP baby girl.”
Fire officials suspect the blaze started because of a portable heater that was left on in the apartment.
Not much of a cover up was it? A lame attempt at shifting the blame to someone else for a very short period, but OK thanks for that.
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Not much of a cover up was it? A lame attempt at shifting the blame to someone else for a very short period, but OK thanks for that.
Tell you what Alf. Write out a full spec of what it is you expect posters to provide an example of and we will see what we can do. This thread is clearly going down the line of "Ah yes but not quite right".
Always of course being cognisant of the fact that whether there is or is not an example it will not prove much.
Unless of course you believe the demonstrably erroneous theory of "if it hasn't happened before it can't happen".
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Did I say that?
I said loving parents who go out to dinner afterwards and laugh and joke normally as if nothing has happened, they just wouldn't be able to do it, and then when they find their child gone put on an act worthy of a bafta award.
In my life I have met many couples whose marriages have seemed rock solid. They seemed completely happy and loving, and then they split up and it turned out they had hidden all their problems and put on an award winning act in public. You can't take things at face value because you have no idea what is happening in private.
If you read the statements the couple seemed pretty preoccupied before and during the Tapas meal. Gerry knew nothing about Russell being absent, Jane going to relieve him, Russell coming back and having his meal redone. He thought he was sitting facing the apartment but he had his back to it. Kate doesn't remember Russell going to check with Matthew at 9.30pm. She doesn't know if she had a shower at 6.40pm or a bath after 7pm. she doesn't remember sitting next to Jane. Neither of them mentioned the sailing 'accident' when Matthew fell off the catamaran, which was a well known topic of conversation at the table.
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What ever they are trained to do, it is different when it is your own child.
There are two ways to look at this.
1, Doctors are too emotionally involved and may make the wrong decisions when treated loved ones.
2. Treating a loved one is OK because the doctor will go all out for a patient they care about.
The GMC accepts that it's OK in an emergency situation.
In reality some doctors will be able to respond adequately in an emergency situation involving a family member, others may not. I don't suppose they know themselves unless and until it happens, so no-one else can pretend to know either.
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In my life I have met many couples whose marriages have seemed rock solid. They seemed completely happy and loving, and then they split up and it turned out they had hidden all their problems and put on an award winning act in public. You can't take things at face value because you have no idea what is happening in private.
(snip)
Yes, of course there are people who appear happy in public and keep the lid on whatever is happening in private.
However, this is one of the most publicly scrutinised couples in recent times, with the media willing to pay large sums of money for any kind of "scoop" and armchair detectives from certain quarters examining any and every microscopic detail to somehow bolster the notion that they are somehow complicit in Madeleine's disappearance.
After nearly 9 years of such scrutiny, what 'dark secrets' could they possibly have had that wouldn't have been splashed all over the Internet?
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There are two ways to look at this.
1, Doctors are too emotionally involved and may make the wrong decisions when treated loved ones.
2. Treating a loved one is OK because the doctor will go all out for a patient they care about.
The GMC accepts that it's OK in an emergency situation.
In reality some doctors will be able to respond adequately in an emergency situation involving a family member, others may not. I don't suppose they know themselves unless and until it happens, so no-one else can pretend to know either.
There were other doctors in the group they could have shouted to for help if necessary.
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Yes, of course there are people who appear happy in public and keep the lid on whatever is happening in private.
However, this is one of the most publicly scrutinised couples in recent times, with the media willing to pay large sums of money for any kind of "scoop" and armchair detectives from certain quarters examining any and every microscopic detail to somehow bolster the notion that they are somehow complicit in Madeleine's disappearance.
After nearly 9 years of such scrutiny, what 'dark secrets' could they possibly have had that wouldn't have been splashed all over the Internet?
I am speaking about one and a half hours on the evening of 3rd May when people think there was no sign of tension. If (other) people are able put on an act for months an hour and a half is nothing, especially if no-one is really scrutinising them.
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I am speaking about one and a half hours on the evening of 3rd May when people think there was no sign of tension. If (other) people are able put on an act for months an hour and a half is nothing, especially if no-one is really scrutinising them.
But that 1.5 hours has spanned into nearly 9 years...
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That is your belief.
So how would a doctor then deal with an emergency with their own child, with a life threatening condition, if no other doctor was available ?
Would they just stand there ?
Of course they wouldn't just stand there, but they wouldn't be as calm and collected when dealing with their own child as they would be with a strangers child.
Honestly Stephen, if you were faced with a child dying in an accident and it was a strangers child, obviously you would be upset, but if it was your own child you would be absolutely distraught wouldn't you? Unable to behave rationally and no way would you be going out to dinner and laughing with friends. The McCann's behaved in the way you would expect parents to behave when they found Madeleine missing, distraught, unable to function.
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Of course they wouldn't just stand there, but they wouldn't be as calm and collected when dealing with their own child as they would be with a strangers child.
Honestly Stephen, if you were faced with a child dying in an accident and it was a strangers child, obviously you would be upset, but if it was your own child you would be absolutely distraught wouldn't you? Unable to behave rationally and no way would you be going out to dinner and laughing with friends. The McCann's behaved in the way you would expect parents to behave when they found Madeleine missing, distraught, unable to function.
Yet functioning enough to write the timelines.
You should realize by now, I don't swallow your appraisal of the mccanns or what they did that night.
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Yet functioning enough to write the timelines.
You should realize by now, I don't swallow your appraisal of the mccanns or what they did that night.
They didn't write the timelines.
You don't swallow the truth.
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If they were guilty and wanted to put an act on they could have done a far better job
Going jogging
Washing cuddle cat
Let everything just peter out and they were home and dry
It is obvious they are not involved
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Tell you what Alf. Write out a full spec of what it is you expect posters to provide an example of and we will see what we can do. This thread is clearly going down the line of "Ah yes but not quite right".
Always of course being cognisant of the fact that whether there is or is not an example it will not prove much.
Unless of course you believe the demonstrably erroneous theory of "if it hasn't happened before it can't happen".
It's quite simple: seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of beloved child. I didn't reject Carly's example, just didn't think it was a very serious attempt at a cover up that's all. Cover-up implies an element of forethought and planning IMO. Dunno how much of that went into the example she gave...?
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I am speaking about one and a half hours on the evening of 3rd May when people think there was no sign of tension. If (other) people are able put on an act for months an hour and a half is nothing, especially if no-one is really scrutinising them.
Can you really see no difference between putting on a brave face to hide the fact that your marriage has slowly been crumbling for years, and trying to mask the undoubted severe mental anguish and shock you would be feeling on discovering one of your precious children dead? Seriously?!
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TOPIC. PLEASE.
I shall be deleting Off Topic Posts.
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Of course they wouldn't just stand there, but they wouldn't be as calm and collected when dealing with their own child as they would be with a strangers child.
Honestly Stephen, if you were faced with a child dying in an accident and it was a strangers child, obviously you would be upset, but if it was your own child you would be absolutely distraught wouldn't you? Unable to behave rationally and no way would you be going out to dinner and laughing with friends. The McCann's behaved in the way you would expect parents to behave when they found Madeleine missing, distraught, unable to function.
I don't know why some people think they are experts on how others think, feel and react. There are many different sorts of people in the world and they all react differently. Many would have been totally unable to give emotionless interviews on TV, but the McCanns managed it.
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I don't know why some people think they are experts on how others think, feel and react. There are many different sorts of people in the world and they all react differently. Many would have been totally unable to give emotionless interviews on TV, but the McCanns managed it.
Then by your own admission you cannot make any judgement on the way the McCanns reacted
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Then by your own admission you cannot make any judgement on the way the McCanns reacted
Wasn't that the point I was trying to make? That those who answer a post with their own assumptions of how people will behave is a false argument? The title of this thread restricts posters to examples of 'loving' parents only. Why that restriction, I wonder? Is that because you are assuming that the McCanns were loving parents and therefore only examples involving loving parents are relevant? Are you therefore assuming that they were loving parents or do you have solid reasons for believing that?
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Wasn't that the point I was trying to make? That those who answer a post with their own assumptions of how people will behave is a false argument? The title of this thread restricts posters to examples of 'loving' parents only. Why that restriction, I wonder? Is that because you are assuming that the McCanns were loving parents and therefore only examples involving loving parents are relevant? Are you therefore assuming that they were loving parents or do you have solid reasons for believing that?
I would say there are solid reasons for thinking they were loving parents
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They didn't write the timelines.
You don't swallow the truth.
Their timelines.
You do know what a metaphor is ?
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Wasn't that the point I was trying to make? That those who answer a post with their own assumptions of how people will behave is a false argument? The title of this thread restricts posters to examples of 'loving' parents only. Why that restriction, I wonder? Is that because you are assuming that the McCanns were loving parents and therefore only examples involving loving parents are relevant? Are you therefore assuming that they were loving parents or do you have solid reasons for believing that?
I'm happy to look at examples of seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of a child if that helps?
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I would say there are solid reasons for thinking they were loving parents
Is that a guess or do you have examples of these solid reasons? Please give your definition of 'loving' also.
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Is that a guess or do you have examples of these solid reasons? Please give your definition of 'loving' also.
Whose opinion would you accept that Kate and Gerry McCann are loving parents?
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Can I please clarify? The claim was that there are "many" examples of seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of their child, not about parents killing or causing the death of a child. So let's get some examples to look at....
I do, actually, understand that ....
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Not accidents that involve their own child!!!
If Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment – why would that be our fault?
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Is that a guess or do you have examples of these solid reasons? Please give your definition of 'loving' also.
It isn't a guess...and I think we all understand what loving means
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It isn't a guess...and I think we all understand what loving means
'Loving parents' is a meaningless phrase. Most parents do their best for their children but not all children turn out OK. Parents may think they were loving but their children may not agree. I don't suppose a child feels loved if they wake up at night and cry and no-one comes, for example.
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It's quite simple: seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of beloved child. I didn't reject Carly's example, just didn't think it was a very serious attempt at a cover up that's all. Cover-up implies an element of forethought and planning IMO. Dunno how much of that went into the example she gave...?
Reply to red font,
It means so such thing. forethought and planning would be considrered as a murder being covered up and not accidental death.
Accidental death may cause initial panic or a small window of planning- time coulld be bought by hiding the body until a permanant solution to dispersal could be decided and acted upon.
Philpotts were very loving family according to... the philpot parents- who murdered their children- burned them alive then tried to cash in on their demise...oh um ..erm yeah. I suppose it depends on what the words loving parents means to anyone...
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'Loving parents' is a meaningless phrase. Most parents do their best for their children but not all children turn out OK. Parents may think they were loving but their children may not agree. I don't suppose a child feels loved if they wake up at night and cry and no-one comes, for example.
I had loving parents and don't consider it a meaningless phrase...you seem to think the only opinion that matters is yours...you are wrong
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I had loving parents and don't consider it a meaningless phrase...you seem to think the only opinion that matters is yours...you are wrong
You have just proved my point. You are content with the care and love your parents gave you. Not everyone is, but their parents and even onlookers may think they were loving. The opinion that matters isn't mine, it's the child's because they know whether they felt loved or not.
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You have just proved my point. You are content with the care and love your parents gave you. Not everyone is, but their parents and even onlookers may think they were loving. The opinion that matters isn't mine, it's the child's because they know whether they felt loved or not.
rubbish... a child may have loving parents but rebel and hate their parents because they refuse to let them do things the parents consider harmful...its easy to decide if parents are loving or not
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You have just proved my point. You are content with the care and love your parents gave you. Not everyone is, but their parents and even onlookers may think they were loving. The opinion that matters isn't mine, it's the child's because they know whether they felt loved or not.
There is plenty of evidence to support this. Many child abuse victims believed the abuse was their fault, and don't want to report them because they believe their parents love them- because that is warped view of 'love' as shown by parents in their home environment.Children cannot measure parental love by a moral compass if they do not know of it's existance. You know this Davel so stop pretending you don't.
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There is plenty of evidence to support this. Many child abuse victims believed the abuse was their fault, and don't want to report them because they believe their parents love them- because that is warped view of 'love' as shown by parents in their home environment.Children cannot measure parental love by a moral compass if they do not know of it's existance. You know this Davel so stop pretending you don't.
its gunit who is saying children know best...not me
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There is plenty of evidence to support this. Many child abuse victims believed the abuse was their fault, and don't want to report them because they believe their parents love them- because that is warped view of 'love' as shown by parents in their home environment.Children cannot measure parental love by a moral compass if they do not know of it's existance. You know this Davel so stop pretending you don't.
Unfortunately, some children do indeed suffer from abuse.
However, what connection are you suggesting between children growing up in an abusive household and Madeleine's disappearance?
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'Loving parents' is a meaningless phrase. Most parents do their best for their children but not all children turn out OK. Parents may think they were loving but their children may not agree. I don't suppose a child feels loved if they wake up at night and cry and no-one comes, for example.
Let's not get too hung up on the word "loving" although doing so does provide plenty of opportunity for deflecting from the purpose of this thread which is to consider cases of parents (loving, or only seemingly loving) who decided to cover up the tragic accidental death of their child. So, have we any further examples...?
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its gunit who is saying children know best...not me
Really?
Davel posted
"rubbish... a child may have loving parents but rebel and hate their parents because they refuse to let them do things the parents consider harmful...its easy to decide if parents are loving or not"
Easy for who? a 5 year old who is physically and mentally abused because her family believe she is a witch?
a 7 year old who has had a brutal version of FGM performed by a old woman with a piece of glass?
I have quoted two real instances of children who believed their parents loved them and knew what was best for them... Two of the parents were doctors! One was struck off by the GMC. His colleagues were shocked to the core because he was a great guy and lovely person very popular...
who are you talking about Davel?
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Let's not get too hung up on the word "loving" although doing so does provide plenty of opportunity for deflecting from the purpose of this thread which is to consider cases of parents (loving, or only seemingly loving) who decided to cover up the tragic accidental death of their child. So, have we any further examples...?
Are you moving the goal posts Alfred? are the parens to be loving or not? partially loving give us a scale to work on... any hoo the phil pots loved their children...
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The Anthony family covered up the accidental drowning of Caylee Anthony....according to Casey's defence lawyer at least
Does that count?
Eta a link
http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-trial-defense-claims-caylee-anthony-drowned/story?id=13674375
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The Anthony family covered up the accidental drowning of Caylee Anthony....according to Casey's defence lawyer at least
Does that count?
Eta a link
http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-trial-defense-claims-caylee-anthony-drowned/story?id=13674375
Not sure Mercury, were they loving or partually love perents we do have a scale going on here... to meet the requirements of the thread question.
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Are you moving the goal posts Alfred? are the parens to be loving or not? partially loving give us a scale to work on... any hoo the phil pots loved their children...
The Philpotts set light to their own house, their children's deaths was not a tragic accident. Next.
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Not sure Mercury, were they loving or partually love perents we do have a scale going on here... to meet the requirements of the thread question.
Yes, the parameters laid are particularly limiting/challenging.....but by all accounts both the parent and grandparents loved their child/grandchild...I don't think the loving/half loving/not loving should be set in stone as a criteria as there may be other factors that muddy waters
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The Philpotts set light to their own house, their children's deaths was not a tragic accident. Next.
Next? oh you didn't like that answer huh...
Well they claimed it was an accident that the children were burned alive, because they didn't account for the fire to take so quickly, and the plan to rescue them to show Mik the dk to be a hero and blame his ex failed because, well...because ... you know erm um...and they loved their children....
How wide are these goal posts you keep moving?
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The Anthony family covered up the accidental drowning of Caylee Anthony....according to Casey's defence lawyer at least
Does that count?
Eta a link
http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-trial-defense-claims-caylee-anthony-drowned/story?id=13674375
Was that the court's finding?
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Next? oh you didn't like that answer huh...
Well they claimed it was an accident that the children were burned alive, because they didn't account for the fire to take so quickly, and the plan to rescue them to show Mik the dk to be a hero and blame his ex failed because, well...because ... you know erm um...and they loved their children....
How wide are these goal posts you keep moving?
The only goalpost shifting on my part is that I have said I would accept examples of seemingly loving as well as loving parents who covered up the tragic accidental death of a child. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Philpott children's deaths were a tragic accident?
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Was that the court's finding?
You mean you don't know? Not guilty of murder. THAT was the charge
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You mean you don't know? Not guilty of murder.
Was anyne found guilty of covering up the accidental death?
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The only goalpost shifting on my part is that I have said I would accept examples of seemingly loving as well as loving parents who covered up the tragic accidental death of a child. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Philpott children's deaths were a tragic accident?
I wasn't there so I don't know. I also don't know if they loved their children or not BUT you asked for an example and I offered their version of what happened. They said it was an accident they claimed to have loved their children.
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I wasn't there so I don't know. I also don't know if they loved their children or not BUT you asked for an example and I offered their version of what happened. They said it was an accident they claimed to have loved their children.
Are you aware of the fact that they were originally charged with murder, and subsequently found guilty of manslaughter? This case is not an example of seemingly loving parents covering up the death of a child, and that's not goalpost shifting that's just a fact.
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Was anyne found guilty of covering up the accidental death?
That wasn't the charge the mother went to court for
Stop changing the subject, I gave you an example which is near enough to what you asked for...they admitted the accident was covered up, end of
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That wasn't the charge the mother went to court for
Stop changing the subject, I gave you an example which is near enough to what you asked for...they admitted the accident was covered up, end of
It wasn't an effing accident fgs!!!
And re: the Caylee Anthony, think! If she had murdered the child then going for a defence that involved her other half or whoever it was covering up the accidental death was an exercise in self-preservation and an attempt at getting a lighter sentence, and as it was not proven to have happened that way it is not an example, soz la.
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Are you aware of the fact that they were originally charged with murder, and subsequently found guilty of manslaughter? This case is not an example of seemingly loving parents covering up the death of a child, and that's not goalpost shifting that's just a fact.
We don't know what the charge is going to be in this case and you wouldn't stop an autopsy happening because of a tragic accident. You cover that up for something a lot more sinister. Whoever is behind it didn't want that child to be found!
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We don't know what the charge is going to be in this case and you wouldn't stop an autopsy happening because of a tragic accident. You cover that up for something a lot more sinister. Whoever is behind it didn't want that child to be found!
This thread is not for your oblique soundbites but for examples of seemngly loving parents covering up the accidental death of a child - got any?
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It wasn't an effing accident fgs!!!
And re: the Caylee Anthony, think! If she had murdered the child then going for a defence that involved her other half or whoever it was covering up the accidental death was an exercise in self-preservation and an attempt at getting a lighter sentence, and as it was not proven to have happened that way it is not an example, soz la.
Keep your hair on. So you think Caylee Anthony was murdered by her mother, oh ok. Many do, many dont.
Her parents testified it was a drowning incident. Her lawyer argued this. She got off on the murder charge.
Yes, they could all be lying, one to save her skin, the others to do the same for her. It remains an example as YOU don't know the truth. You can't pick and chose what examples you accept. The verdict of not guilty of murder at least suggests the jury believed it was an accident. Why it was covered up I have no idea....round and round the mulberry bush....
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This thread is not for your oblique soundbites but for examples of seemngly loving parents covering up the accidental death of a child - got any?
I don't think deaths are covered up for neglect charges and I doubt the police do too when spending 11 million. They could lie and say they found the child when they awoke the following morning. The child must have got up in the night and was found behind the sofa the following morning. An autopsy would confirm it was a tragic fall accident.
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Keep your hair on. So you think Caylee Anthony was murdered by her mother, oh ok. Many do, many dont.
Her parents testified it was a drowning incident. Her lawyer argued this. She got off on the murder charge.
Yes, they could all be lying, one to save her skin, the others to do the same for her. It remains an example as YOU don't know the truth. You can't pick and chose what examples you accept. The verdict of not guilty of murder at least suggests the jury believed it was an accident. Why it was covered up I have no idea....round and round the mulberry bush....
If the jury found that Casey Anthony, loving or seemingly loving parent covered up the tragic death of her child then fair enough you've given us an example, albeit one about as convincing as OJ Simpson being an example of a decent family man falsely accused of murder, but thanks anyway.
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Are you aware of the fact that they were originally charged with murder, and subsequently found guilty of manslaughter? This case is not an example of seemingly loving parents covering up the death of a child, and that's not goalpost shifting that's just a fact.
exactly What point are you trying to make here Alfie? asking a vague question then getting replies and then not accepting them. The Philpots claimed it was an accident and tried to cover it up by claiming Micks ex GF was the one who was to blame...
Now what you have is the parents who loved their children never harmed them- we tried to tie that down but couldn't decide what love was in every scenario. Perhaps I could suggest that parents who tried to cover up a child/children's accidental death were negligent and scared and then saw an opportunity to make a fast buck-like the Philpots. They claim it was an accident- as in they didn't mean for their children to die, and they claim they love their children. This meets your THREAD QUESTION criteria. You never mentioned in your thread title if the parents were then charged with murder... which would tie in with what part did the parents play in the accident for them to feel they had to cover it up.
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I don't think deaths are covered up for neglect charges and I doubt the police do too when spending 11 million. They could lie and say they found the child when they awoke the following morning. The child must have got up in the night and was found behind the sofa the following morning. An autopsy would confirm it was a tragic fall accident.
If I am reading your post correctly ... you are suggesting that all they had to do in respect of accidental death was 'find' Madeleine behind the couch in the morning after a good nights sleep.
Post mortem.
Then flight home with no worries.
Why therefore go to the trouble of hiding a body in a place which hasn't been found nine years down the line when almost the same remedy would have saved the bother of 'simulating' anything?
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If the jury found that Casey Anthony, loving or seemingly loving parent covered up the tragic death of her child then fair enough you've given us an example, albeit one about as convincing as OJ Simpson being an example of a decent family man falsely accused of murder, but thanks anyway.
The jury were not asked this ergo your post is defunct...perhaps you can furnish us with examples of charges laid leading to court where the parents were accused of covering up a tragic accident
Oh and btw AJ it is NOT without the realms of possibility that abc happened because people can't find enough similar examples for you
not saying abc happened but you have no basis for asserting abc couldn't have happened
Life is stranger than fiction dear
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If I am reading your post correctly ... you are suggesting that all they had to do in respect of accidental death was 'find' Madeleine behind the couch in the morning after a good nights sleep.
Post mortem.
Then flight home with no worries.
Why therefore go to the trouble of hiding a body in a place which hasn't been found nine years down the line when almost the same remedy would have saved the bother of 'simulating' anything?
It wasn't an accident if they covered it up because no child no autopsy.
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It wasn't an accident if they covered it up because no child no autopsy.
The point is ... they covered nothing up ... they found her missing from her bed.
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The point is ... they covered nothing up ... they found her missing from her bed.
were you there? If not, then it's just your opinion not a fact, though it could be
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were you there? If not, then it's just your opinion not a fact, though it could be
It is a fact that Madeleine was missing from her bed. If she wasn't ... where exactly is she?
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It is a fact that Madeleine was missing from her bed. If she wasn't ... where exactly is she?
Yes It seems to be the only fact that's all
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Really?
Davel posted
"rubbish... a child may have loving parents but rebel and hate their parents because they refuse to let them do things the parents consider harmful...its easy to decide if parents are loving or not"
Easy for who? a 5 year old who is physically and mentally abused because her family believe she is a witch?
a 7 year old who has had a brutal version of FGM performed by a old woman with a piece of glass?
I have quoted two real instances of children who believed their parents loved them and knew what was best for them... Two of the parents were doctors! One was struck off by the GMC. His colleagues were shocked to the core because he was a great guy and lovely person very popular...
who are you talking about Davel?
again..you have misunderstood...it is gunit who says children are the judge,,,I have said they are not.....
It is a genetic fact that in general parents are loving and look after their children....we would be extinct if that was not the case
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again..you have misunderstood...it is gunit who says children are the judge,,,I have said they are not.....
It is a genetic fact that in general parents are loving and look after their children....we would be extinct if that was not the case
That makes it easier, we can widen our scope to "in general" parents.
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That makes it easier, we can widen our scope to "in general" parents.
once again you come in with an irrelevant comment to a discussion that has been taking place over the past 12 hours...read back and you will understand
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Real parents who love their children, do not leave them in blatantly obvious vulnerable conditions.
Likewise, real parents who love their children, do not place their socializing over their children's welfare.
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exactly What point are you trying to make here Alfie? asking a vague question then getting replies and then not accepting them. The Philpots claimed it was an accident and tried to cover it up by claiming Micks ex GF was the one who was to blame...
Now what you have is the parents who loved their children never harmed them- we tried to tie that down but couldn't decide what love was in every scenario. Perhaps I could suggest that parents who tried to cover up a child/children's accidental death were negligent and scared and then saw an opportunity to make a fast buck-like the Philpots. They claim it was an accident- as in they didn't mean for their children to die, and they claim they love their children. This meets your THREAD QUESTION criteria. You never mentioned in your thread title if the parents were then charged with murder... which would tie in with what part did the parents play in the accident for them to feel they had to cover it up.
Oh dear. You obviously don't understand the difference between an accident and a deliberate act of arson. Never mind.
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It wasn't an accident if they covered it up because no child no autopsy.
so your view is her parents killed her.
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Real parents who love their children, do not leave them in blatantly obvious vulnerable conditions.
Likewise, real parents who love their children, do not place their socializing over their children's welfare.
Yes they do...but not intentionally
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Yes they do...but not intentionally
Any parent who can't imagine the potential for disaster with leaving small children home alone for up to 30 minutes is stupid or irresponsible.
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Any parent who can't imagine the potential for disaster with leaving small children home alone for up to 30 minutes is stupid or irresponsible.
I often wonder if Madeleine had died in a fire that had taken hold during the half an hour between checks how differently the McCanns would be viewed. Would the supporters still be making excuses ?
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I often wonder if Madeleine had died in a fire that had taken hold during the half an hour between checks how differently the McCanns would be viewed. Would the supporters still be making excuses ?
I presume they wouldn't dare.
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I often wonder if Madeleine had died in a fire that had taken hold during the half an hour between checks how differently the McCanns would be viewed. Would the supporters still be making excuses ?
Ah, there you are. I created this thread so that you would be able to give me the many examples you have of seemingly loving parents covering up the tragic accidental death of a child and not risk being off topic. I shall read about your many examples with interest.
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Real parents who love their children, do not leave them in blatantly obvious vulnerable conditions.
Likewise, real parents who love their children, do not place their socializing over their children's welfare.
So does that mean I don't have real parents who love me? 8)><(
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So does that mean I don't have real parents who love me? 8)><(
Well going by your posts on this forum... ?>)()<
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Well going by your posts on this forum... ?>)()<
What does that mean exactly? Kindly spell it out.
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What does that mean exactly? Kindly spell it out.
You do know what humour is alfred ?
You apparently used it in your previous posts.
Or are you adverse to others using it ? 8)-)))
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once again you come in with an irrelevant comment to a discussion that has been taking place over the past 12 hours...read back and you will understand
It is not irrelevant, you stated that in general parents are loving, Alfie has spent quite a while trying to narrow down which parents he will count as loving so we take your input as a widening of that scope.
P.S. To read threads does not require posting to them (well for some of us).
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You do know what humour is alfred ?
You apparently used it in your previous posts.
Or are you adverse to others using it ? 8)-)))
Oh I see, you were being "funny" - ha. ha. ha. FYI "real" parents can do stupid things that sometimes hurt the children that they love more than anything. The papers are full of such tragedies. I read about a parent who accidentally reversed over their child killing him instantly, are we to doubt the extent to which the parent loved their child because of this carelessness? How about parents who feed their kids too much and have horribly overweight children that need gastric band surgery before their teens? Are they unloving or just a bit stupid?
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It is not irrelevant, you stated that in general parents are loving, Alfie has spent quite a while trying to narrow down which parents he will count as loving so we take your input as a widening of that scope.
P.S. To read threads does not require posting to them (well for some of us).
I have done no such thing. Kindly retract. I have clearly stated "loving or seemingly loving", why do you make stuff up?
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Oh I see, you were being "funny" - ha. ha. ha. FYI "real" parents can do stupid things that sometimes hurt the children that they love more than anything. The papers are full of such tragedies. I read about a parent who accidentally reversed over their child killing him instantly, are we to doubt the extent to which the parent loved their child because of this carelessness? How about parents who feed their kids too much and have horribly overweight children that need gastric band surgery before their teens? Are they unloving or just a bit stupid?
Ah, that was the anticipated response.
FYI, the mccanns did this on 5 successive nights, and for all we know at other times as well, and would have continued to do so. The rank stupidity of leaving young children unattended can be seen in recent headlines, including some examples posted on here. Nothing you can say will take away the truth, for the mccanns, socializing first, children second.
END OF.
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It is not irrelevant, you stated that in general parents are loving, Alfie has spent quite a while trying to narrow down which parents he will count as loving so we take your input as a widening of that scope.
P.S. To read threads does not require posting to them (well for some of us).
My posts have been in response to gunit and mistaken who are talking about parents in general
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Ah, that was the anticipated response.
FYI, the mccanns did this on 5 successive nights, and for all we know at other times as well, and would have continued to do so. The rank stupidity of leaving young children unattended can be seen in recent headlines, including some examples posted on here. Nothing you can say will take away the truth, for the mccanns, socializing first, children second.
END OF.
Stephen Has Spoken: The McCanns are not real parents, nor loving. END OF.
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Stephen Has Spoken: The McCanns are not real parents, nor loving. END OF.
Parents yes.
Good parents. NO.
and do you really think I am by myself in this view ? 8)-)))
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Parents yes.
Good parents. NO.
and do you really think I am by myself in this view ? 8)-)))
The word under discussion was "loving" not "good". What makes you think I think you're alone on this? Slagging off the McCanns is now officially a national pastime, didn't you know?
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Ah, that was the anticipated response.
FYI, the mccanns did this on 5 successive nights, and for all we know at other times as well, and would have continued to do so. The rank stupidity of leaving young children unattended can be seen in recent headlines, including some examples posted on here. Nothing you can say will take away the truth, for the mccanns, socializing first, children second.
END OF.
Well Social Services had better take all the McCann's friends children off them hadn't they, or are they not counted in the nasty horrible uncaring parents?
As I have said before Stephen, a stupid decision does not mean the McCann's are not loving caring parents, if they weren't they wouldn't have been checking on them and they would certainly have not bothered to book the OC for the week to be close to the apartment. Also you are forgetting that the McCann's had baby sitters when they went out at home, if they were uncaring parents who normally left their children why have baby sitters at home?
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Well Social Services had better take all the McCann's friends children off them hadn't they, or are they not counted in the nasty horrible uncaring parents?
As I have said before Stephen, a stupid decision does not mean the McCann's are not loving caring parents, if they weren't they wouldn't have been checking on them and they would certainly have not bothered to book the OC for the week to be close to the apartment. Also you are forgetting that the McCann's had baby sitters when they went out at home, if they were uncaring parents who normally left their children why have baby sitters at home?
And if the children had died in a fire between the half hourly checks ?
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And if the children had died in a fire between the half hourly checks ?
What are you trying to say? That I think it was ok to leave the children? Well I don't I am saying they made a bad decision, but that doesn't mean they weren't loving, caring parents.
If the children had died in a blaze, it still would have been because they made a stupid reckless decision but there would still be no reason to say they were not loving, caring parents.
Before you bring up the Phillpott's, they STARTED the fire, so I would not call them loving and caring.
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What are you trying to say? That I think it was ok to leave the children? Well I don't I am saying they made a bad decision, but that doesn't mean they weren't loving, caring parents.
If the children had died in a blaze, it still would have been because they made a stupid reckless decision but there would still be no reason to say they were not loving, caring parents.
Before you bring up the Phillpott's, they STARTED the fire, so I would not call them loving and caring.
Neither couple wanted the deaths of their children but due to their reckless behavior that's what happened.
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Neither couple wanted the deaths of their children but due to their reckless behavior that's what happened.
Another one who can't see the difference between an accident and a deliberate act.
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Apparently there are many examples of seemingly loving parents who have covered up the tragic accidental death of a child, however after several pages of this thread, and contributions from the member who made the allegation in the first place we've yet to see any real examples... how strange... &%+((£
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Don't think I have ever heard of such a case.
Mind, the very nature of the question would mean that people wouldn't know about it..surely? If its been covered up, then people wouldn't know about it.
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Don't think I have ever heard of such a case.
Mind, the very nature of the question would mean that people wouldn't know about it..surely? If its been covered up, then people wouldn't know about it.
The forum was reliably informed that there were many such cases, and as it is forum etiquette to back up claims with cites and examples, I'm looking forward to reading them when they eventually materialize...
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Don't think I have ever heard of such a case.
Mind, the very nature of the question would mean that people wouldn't know about it..surely? If its been covered up, then people wouldn't know about it.
Exactly.
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The forum was reliably informed that there were many such cases, and as it is forum etiquette to back up claims with cites and examples, I'm looking forward to reading them when they eventually materialize...
Sorry I only started reading this forum again last night, not up to date on what had been claimed here and there :p
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Exactly.
Not quite exactly - there may well be cover-ups that we don't know about but a claim has been made that there are cover-ups that presumably ARE known about, otherwise the claim could not have been legitimately made.
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Oh dear. You obviously don't understand the difference between an accident and a deliberate act of arson. Never mind.
Oh I understand perfectly. I also understand your attempt to try and wriggle out of accepting that parents who are involved in their childs 'accident' would try and cover it up and the A&E and Social services will quite happily confirm this,however to protect children they don't name names.
The 'accident' concerning the Philpots was they didn't mean to kill the children, they wanted to make Mick out a hero to save them but the plan went wrong. That was their case- they did not deliberatly set out to kill the children- just like a child could get hold of mummies little helpers while they were out drinking as an example or the child got out of an unlocked apartment and was snatched by a paedophile or was found dead due to banging her head while the parents were out drinking... but they were still loving parents. They had to cover it up to protect their reputations kind of thing...Or maybe the mother snapped and did what alot of people do, and accidentally killed their child by losing their temper and harming the child...
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Oh I understand perfectly. I also understand your attempt to try and wriggle out of accepting that parents who are involved in their childs 'accident' would try and cover it up and the A&E and Social services will quite happily confirm this,however to protect children they don't name names.
The 'accident' concerning the Philpots was they didn't mean to kill the children, they wanted to make Mick out a hero to save them but the plan went wrong. That was their case- they did not deliberatly set out to kill the children- just like a child could get hold of mummies little helpers while they were out drinking as an example or the child got out of an unlocked apartment and was snatched by a paedophile or was found dead due to banging her head while the parents were out drinking... but they were still loving parents. They had to cover it up to protect their reputations kind of thing...Or maybe the mother snapped and did what alot of people do, and accidentally killed their child by losing their temper and harming the child...
If you seriously believe that leaving three children asleep in bed alone, and checking on them at half hourly intervals is the same thing as deliberately setting fire to a house in which your children are asleep then I'm sorry but there is no possible hope for you.. Just answer me this one final question: would you describe the deaths of the Philpott children as "a tragic accident"?
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If you seriously believe that leaving three children asleep in bed alone, and checking on them at half hourly intervals is the same thing as deliberately setting fire to a house in which your children are asleep then I'm sorry but there is no possible hope for you.. Just answer me this one final question: would you describe the deaths of the Philpott children as "a tragic accident"?
Those children were not checked half hourly! and this checking which seemed to be [as and when'[ -was a listening at doors, not physical checking. Do you belive the parents of Madeliene Beth McCann did not consider their children could come to any harm? how could they be so sure they would not wake up and wander? The McCanns deliberatly left their daugher to all sorts of danger I see no difference in both sets of parents in that respect.
Both sets of parents 'thought' no harm would come to their children- both parents were wrong! And again what if all three children died in a fire like the philpots children who would be to blame then? not Amaral , the f**king tossers or tweedle dee and tweedle dum....that's for sure! a case of there but or the grace of god go I.