Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294773 times)

0 Members and 17 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #180 on: November 03, 2018, 06:08:23 PM »
I think in a case where there was sufficient circumstantial evidence any cadaver alerts would or could be part of the circumstantial evidence presented.
No evidential reliability.... What should a defence lawyer make of that...

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #181 on: November 03, 2018, 06:19:19 PM »
No evidential reliability.... What should a defence lawyer make of that...
That is the weird thing about circumstantial evidence, none is reliable on its own, but weighs up by the sheer mass of it.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #182 on: November 03, 2018, 06:22:52 PM »
No evidential reliability.... What should a defence lawyer make of that...

Well the defence lawyer in the Bianca Jones case seems to have used similar arguments to those used by people who try to discredit these dogs, but to no avail.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-detroit-news/20121004/281706906902738
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #183 on: November 03, 2018, 06:28:18 PM »
Well the defence lawyer in the Bianca Jones case seems to have used similar arguments to those used by people who try to discredit these dogs, but to no avail.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-detroit-news/20121004/281706906902738
Your cite cannot be read... Could you cut and padte the relevant

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #184 on: November 03, 2018, 06:28:58 PM »
Those decisions are made on a case by case basis by the judge in charge. They decide which evidence is admissible in each case. As far as I know there are no 'rules' which apply to all cases.
Oh?  Are cadaver dog alerts without accompanying forensic evidence  ever admissible in this country? 
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #185 on: November 03, 2018, 06:29:54 PM »
Well the defence lawyer in the Bianca Jones case seems to have used similar arguments to those used by people who try to discredit these dogs, but to no avail.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-detroit-news/20121004/281706906902738

If you wish to use the word discredit then grime had discredited the alerts with his, statement

Online Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #186 on: November 03, 2018, 06:31:34 PM »
Well the defence lawyer in the Bianca Jones case seems to have used similar arguments to those used by people who try to discredit these dogs, but to no avail.
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-detroit-news/20121004/281706906902738

Not a logical result.  Too much hit and miss.  This is not difficult to see.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #187 on: November 03, 2018, 06:32:51 PM »
If you are trying to contradict an expert witness, you need to be an expert.
Is this the law?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #188 on: November 03, 2018, 06:36:52 PM »
Except sometimes they can be used in court, even when no forensic evidence is found.
True, like that case in Sweden of the serial killer that never was, the dog alerted numerous times to a spot in the forest where he said he’d buried his victims.  Only problem was, there were no remains, and he didn’t do it!  Good old dog alerts!
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #189 on: November 03, 2018, 06:52:28 PM »
Your cite cannot be read... Could you cut and padte the relevant


Defense targets cadaver dog evidence in missing child case
The Detroit News4 Oct 2012BY CHRISTINE FERRETTI

David Coates / The Detroit News Defense attorney Terry Johnson, left, speaks to D'Andre Lane on Wednesday. Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse.
Detroit — Defense attorneys attempted Wednesday to minimize key evidence from a cadaver-detecting dog in the circumstantial murder trial of a Detroit man accused in the death of his missing toddler.

D’Andre Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse on allegations he fatally beat 2-year-old Bianca Jones because she wet herself, disposed of her body and fabricated a carjacking to cover up the crime. The child’s body has not been found.

Lane is facing mandatory life if convicted in the case that relies on circumstantial evidence, including a cadaver dog named Morse, who is handled by forensic canine expert Martin Grime.

Defense attorney Terry L. Johnson pointed out during testimony Wednesday in Wayne Circuit Court that the dog’s positive detection of human decomposition in this case — signified with repeated barking — is unsubstantiated because it hasn’t been linked to a corpse.

Johnson, who questioned the forensic canine experts with direction from Texas-based police service dog analyst Steven Nicely, also added that Morse didn’t alert its handler to the scent of decomposition on Lane’s clothing.

“You have no way of telling what Morse responded to,” said Johnson, noting the positive detection hasn’t been connected to the body of Bianca or anyone else. “You don’t know if it was a positive or negative response.”

Grime conceded a determination is usually made when something is found.

“The corroboration would normally be you finding a cadaver, bone or human blood that I could see,” he told Johnson, adding that the dog has never given a false response.

Johnson has called the relatively new scientific method “highly prejudicial” and unsuccessfully fought to have it excluded from Lane’s trial.

Grime testified Wednesday that Morse detected a cadaver scent inside Lane’s car two days after the alleged carjacking. The dog selected the vehicle, which was among 31 others, at a Detroit impound lot.

The dog later alerted Grime of alleged human decomposition on Bianca’s car seat and blanket as well as the girl’s be-

droom inside Lane’s home.

Grime testified that the dog was accurate in tests prior to the visit to Detroit and after.

Grime has said the cadaver dogs cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

Rex A. Stockham, FBI forensic canine program manager, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate.

“I’m aware of no false positives for Morse,” he said. “We’ve never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it’s been shown to be incorrect.”

Lane claims Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.


The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside.

Bianca’s mother, Banika Jones, testified at the opening of the trial that she stands behind Lane and believes her daughter is alive.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 07:43:07 PM by Brietta »
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #190 on: November 03, 2018, 07:08:34 PM »

Defense targets cadaver dog evidence in missing child case
The Detroit News4 Oct 2012BY CHRISTINE FERRETTI

David Coates / The Detroit News Defense attorney Terry Johnson, left, speaks to D'Andre Lane on Wednesday. Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse.
Detroit — Defense attorneys attempted Wednesday to minimize key evidence from a cadaver-detecting dog in the circumstantial murder trial of a Detroit man accused in the death of his missing toddler.

D’Andre Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse on allegations he fatally beat 2-year-old Bianca Jones because she wet herself, disposed of her body and fabricated a carjacking to cover up the crime. The child’s body has not been found.

Lane is facing mandatory life if convicted in the case that relies on circumstantial evidence, including a cadaver dog named Morse, who is handled by forensic canine expert Martin Grime.

Defense attorney Terry L. Johnson pointed out during testimony Wednesday in Wayne Circuit Court that the dog’s positive detection of human decomposition in this case — signified with repeated barking — is unsubstantiated because it hasn’t been linked to a corpse.

Johnson, who questioned the forensic canine experts with direction from Texas-based police service dog analyst Steven Nicely, also added that Morse didn’t alert its handler to the scent of decomposition on Lane’s clothing.

“You have no way of telling what Morse responded to,” said Johnson, noting the positive detection hasn’t been connected to the body of Bianca or anyone else. “You don’t know if it was a positive or negative response.”

Grime conceded a determination is usually made when something is found.

“The corroboration would normally be you finding a cadaver, bone or human blood that I could see,” he told Johnson, adding that the dog has never given a false response.

Johnson has called the relatively new scientific method “highly prejudicial” and unsuccessfully fought to have it excluded from Lane’s trial.

Grime testified Wednesday that Morse detected a cadaver scent inside Lane’s car two days after the alleged carjacking. The dog selected the vehicle, which was among 31 others, at a Detroit impound lot.

The dog later alerted Grime of alleged human decomposition on Bianca’s car seat and blanket as well as the girl’s be-

droom inside Lane’s home.

Grime testified that the dog was accurate in tests prior to the visit to Detroit and after.

Grime has said the cadaver dogs cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

Rex A. Stockham, FBI forensic canine program manager, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate.

“I’m aware of no false positives for Morse,” he said. “We’ve never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it’s been shown to be incorrect.”

Lane claims Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.


The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside.

Bianca’s mother, Banika Jones, testified at the opening of the trial that she stands behind Lane and believes her daughter is alive.

opening this link on android phone asks you to download an app...which I don't wish to do
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 07:46:07 PM by Brietta »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #191 on: November 03, 2018, 07:11:29 PM »

Defense targets cadaver dog evidence in missing child case
The Detroit News4 Oct 2012BY CHRISTINE FERRETTI

David Coates / The Detroit News Defense attorney Terry Johnson, left, speaks to D'Andre Lane on Wednesday. Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse.
Detroit — Defense attorneys attempted Wednesday to minimize key evidence from a cadaver-detecting dog in the circumstantial murder trial of a Detroit man accused in the death of his missing toddler.

D’Andre Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse on allegations he fatally beat 2-year-old Bianca Jones because she wet herself, disposed of her body and fabricated a carjacking to cover up the crime. The child’s body has not been found.

Lane is facing mandatory life if convicted in the case that relies on circumstantial evidence, including a cadaver dog named Morse, who is handled by forensic canine expert Martin Grime.

Defense attorney Terry L. Johnson pointed out during testimony Wednesday in Wayne Circuit Court that the dog’s positive detection of human decomposition in this case — signified with repeated barking — is unsubstantiated because it hasn’t been linked to a corpse.

Johnson, who questioned the forensic canine experts with direction from Texas-based police service dog analyst Steven Nicely, also added that Morse didn’t alert its handler to the scent of decomposition on Lane’s clothing.

“You have no way of telling what Morse responded to,” said Johnson, noting the positive detection hasn’t been connected to the body of Bianca or anyone else. “You don’t know if it was a positive or negative response.”

Grime conceded a determination is usually made when something is found.

“The corroboration would normally be you finding a cadaver, bone or human blood that I could see,” he told Johnson, adding that the dog has never given a false response.

Johnson has called the relatively new scientific method “highly prejudicial” and unsuccessfully fought to have it excluded from Lane’s trial.

Grime testified Wednesday that Morse detected a cadaver scent inside Lane’s car two days after the alleged carjacking. The dog selected the vehicle, which was among 31 others, at a Detroit impound lot.

The dog later alerted Grime of alleged human decomposition on Bianca’s car seat and blanket as well as the girl’s be-

droom inside Lane’s home.

Grime testified that the dog was accurate in tests prior to the visit to Detroit and after.

Grime has said the cadaver dogs cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

Rex A. Stockham, FBI forensic canine program manager, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate.

“I’m aware of no false positives for Morse,” he said. “We’ve never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it’s been shown to be incorrect.”

Lane claims Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.


The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside.

Bianca’s mother, Banika Jones, testified at the opening of the trial that she stands behind Lane and believes her daughter is alive.

in red...that is untrue...grime cannot state that as a fact
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 07:48:30 PM by Brietta »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #192 on: November 03, 2018, 07:18:26 PM »
in red...that is untrue...grime cannot state that as a fact
What was the case when it was not true?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #193 on: November 03, 2018, 07:23:37 PM »
What was the case when it was not true?

has every alert given by morse been confirmed...its basically impossible to prove a dog wrong...if maddie turned up tomorrow it would not prove eddie wrong

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #194 on: November 03, 2018, 07:26:34 PM »
Is this the law?

It’s common sense, using none experts is a recipe for failure.

“GP – What exactly is your profession?

AP answer he is a Crisis Counsellor.

GP asks whether he is a psychologist?

AP says he has some competences in psychology (psychology was one of the elements in his degree).

GP asks again "are you a psychologist?"

AP says no.”

“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.