Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 256063 times)

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Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #210 on: November 03, 2018, 10:00:16 PM »
Experts under cross-examination just last month in a trial which started 25/9/18. Even now, the science is not accepted as probable cause.

https://eu.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2018/10/02/kelly-dwyer-case-cadaver-dog-handler-testifies-zocco-trial/1498006002/
*snipped*

Defense attorney Craig Mastantuono, on cross-examination, raised questions about such conclusions. Corcoran admitted that Molly may have gotten some direction to some spots and that normal "human shed" such as hair, skin, nails and blood would be detectable by a cadaver dog and would likely be concentrated in trash areas of a large apartment building.

No actual remains, of Dwyer or anyone else, were found where Molly alerted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During pretrial motions, Zocco's defense team moved to block Corcoran's testimony as unreliable and prejudicial and challenged her training methods with the dog. The defense called its own detection dog training expert out of order following Corcoran's testimony.

Corcoran said Milwaukee police had requested assistance from her department for Molly's expertise as a so-called cadaver-sniffing dog. She and Molly arrived during the evening of Oct. 16 and worked the scene into the next day.

She described starting in the garage before going to the 18th floor. In the hallway, she said, there were six apartment doors and a door to the trash chute. She let Molly sniff the hallway before Milwaukee officers directed her to the trash door. She opened it and the hatch to the door before Molly alerted the spot.

Corcoran also indicated that the door to Zocco's apartment was ajar, unlike the five other unit doors. After Molly alerted there, officers left while they obtained a search warrant to bring Molly inside.

When they returned, the dog alerted on the entryway floor, a pile of clothes in a laundry room, the hallway bathroom and Zocco's bed — by jumping on it and sitting. Molly did not alert in any other area of the two-bedroom apartment.

Corcoran agreed that a bedroom is another spot where human shed is often concentrated.

She also said Molly did not train extensively with residual odor — that is, detecting odors of remains no longer present. Normally, the training involved finding actual human remains. She agreed there is no way to measure a detection dog's error rate, so she couldn't know Molly's.


Defense expert questions dog's reactions
For the defense, Andre Falco Jimenez, a former law enforcement K-9 handler who now runs a California-based training and consulting company, said use of video during training has revealed how frequently a handler's subtle cues drive a dog's reactions.

He suspected that may have driven Molly's alerts in the Zocco case, since it appeared the dog did not alert on any smells on her initial cursory sniffs but only after some direction.

Jimenez told jurors a dog won't detect evidence of the first phase of human decomposition, which occurs in the first 72 hours, without training on that specific odor. He said it is difficult to obtain such recently deceased bodies for training in the United States, but easier in South America, where his company does much work.

He acknowledged he has worked mostly as an expert witness for defense attorneys and that he advocates a type of training called double-blind, in which a detection dog and handler enter a place without any cues whatsoever, and where sometimes there is no target material hidden. He said he believes it results in more reliable performance than the more common training protocol that believes a dog should always end with a rewardable success.

Hill presented her own expert, Wendell Nope of the Utah Department of Public Safety, who has been involved with police K-9s for 41 years. He said he reviewed Corcoran's training records and reports and deemed her and K-9 Molly reliable and objective, noting she had more than 447 training sessions with Molly with a very high success rate.

Nope agreed it is not easy to get freshly deceased human tissue for training but said some trainers are not convinced that training shortcoming hinders effective detection. He said Molly's records showed she had successfully indicated on residual odor 13 times and that he had no concerns that Corcoran improperly used rewards to unconsciously influence Molly's behavior.

 

Published 5:27 PM EDT Oct 2, 2018
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 11:54:54 PM by misty »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #211 on: November 03, 2018, 10:03:50 PM »
I have a 2:1in Film Studies.  Unless you have equivalent on better than me you cannot contradict my opinion on films.  The end.

In my opinion you have misunderstood the level of expertise a 2:1 bestows. I don't claim that no-one can contradict my opinion on politics using the same criteria.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
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Ignore and break the rules
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #212 on: November 03, 2018, 10:49:33 PM »
In my opinion you have misunderstood the level of expertise a 2:1 bestows. I don't claim that no-one can contradict my opinion on politics using the same criteria.
So what level of expertise would I need to achieve before you felt you could not contradict my opinion on film?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #213 on: November 03, 2018, 11:07:40 PM »
Matthew Parris in the Times today writes an article entitled “Our police are institutionally incompetent”.  I think he makes many valid points and many ex-policemen agree with him.  Matthew Parris is not however, nor ever has been a polceman.  Does that invalidate his opinion?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Sunny

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #214 on: November 03, 2018, 11:30:06 PM »
Matthew Parris in the Times today writes an article entitled “Our police are institutionally incompetent”.  I think he makes many valid points and many ex-policemen agree with him.  Matthew Parris is not however, nor ever has been a polceman.  Does that invalidate his opinion?

I believe that everyone has the right to an opinion on anything that they choose.  There is a caveat though, and that is that they make it clear that it is simply their opinion.

I can have an opinion on a film and you can have one regarding cadaver dogs but both of these opinions are simply opinions and should be clearly marked as such.

A 2.1 degree does not make you an expert in films unless you have spent the last 25 years working in films and achieving success in the same. 
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #215 on: November 03, 2018, 11:41:48 PM »
I believe that everyone has the right to an opinion on anything that they choose.  There is a caveat though, and that is that they make it clear that it is simply their opinion.

I can have an opinion on a film and you can have one regarding cadaver dogs but both of these opinions are simply opinions and should be clearly marked as such.

A 2.1 degree does not make you an expert in films unless you have spent the last 25 years working in films and achieving success in the same.
So I would need 25 years work experience in films to be able to voice an opinion that could not be contradicted by someone with less or no experience of film making?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Sunny

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #216 on: November 03, 2018, 11:48:03 PM »
So I would need 25 years work experience in films to be able to voice an opinion that could not be contradicted by someone with less or no experience of film making?

No as someone with no or little experience would still be entitled to their opinion.  However you would have more standing in the discussion and probably could give information on the correct procedure of film making etc. 

I can have an opinion on a finished film but would find it more difficult to discuss the film making process. As would you unless you had considerable hands on experience.

Martin Grime worked with cadaver dogs for decades. He wouldn't still be doing that profession if he wasn't very proficient and successful in this job.  He is not just still working with cadaver dogs he is highly thought of by the FBI so I would consider him an expert in that field.



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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #217 on: November 03, 2018, 11:54:38 PM »
No as someone with no or little experience would still be entitled to their opinion.  However you would have more standing in the discussion and probably could give information on the correct procedure of film making etc. 

I can have an opinion on a finished film but would find it more difficult to discuss the film making process. As would you unless you had considerable hands on experience.

Martin Grime worked with cadaver dogs for decades. He wouldn't still be doing that profession if he wasn't very proficient and successful in this job.  He is not just still working with cadaver dogs he is highly thought of by the FBI so I would consider him an expert in that field.
You’d be entitled to say (if it were true) that I wasn’t a very competent film maker who’d make an absolute stinker of a movie, poorly directed, acted and edited despite never having directed, acted in or edited a movie in your life, and no one should be able to tell you that because you haven’t made a film yourself that you cannot voice a perfectly valid criticism of it, least of all on a not very important internet chat room.  IMO.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 11:57:01 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Sunny

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #218 on: November 04, 2018, 12:10:58 AM »
You’d be entitled to say (if it were true) that I wasn’t a very competent film maker who’d make an absolute stinker of a movie, poorly directed, acted and edited despite never having directed, acted in or edited a movie in your life, and no one should be able to tell you that because you haven’t made a film yourself that you cannot voice a perfectly valid criticism of it, least of all on a not very important internet chat room.  IMO.

Anyone is allowed to post an opinion on anything - as long as they make it clear that it is only an opinion.

You can criticise Martin Grime as long as you give reasons, as I can criticise your hypothetical expertise in movie making.   

Again you belittle this forum by calling it a "not very important chat room". Why do you do this?
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #219 on: November 04, 2018, 12:14:46 AM »
Anyone is allowed to post an opinion on anything - as long as they make it clear that it is only an opinion.

You can criticise Martin Grime as long as you give reasons, as I can criticise your hypothetical expertise in movie making.   

Again you belittle this forum by calling it a "not very important chat room". Why do you do this?
Because I am allowed to post my opinion.  This forum is not very important IMO, but if you have reason to believe it is then that’s entirely your prerogative.  As for criticising the dog alerts I’m sure you’ve heard the reasons a thousand times, but that’s not what we were discussing.  There has been an attempt to shut down all criticism of the dogs and their handler with the premise that only someone as experienced or more experienced than Grime may condtradict or criticise him and his dog alerts.  Stuff and nonsense I say. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:37:45 AM by Vertigo Swirl »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Erngath

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #220 on: November 04, 2018, 12:15:06 AM »
Anyone is allowed to post an opinion on anything - as long as they make it clear that it is only an opinion.

You can criticise Martin Grime as long as you give reasons, as I can criticise your hypothetical expertise in movie making.   

Again you belittle this forum by calling it a "not very important chat room". Why do you do this?

It is a very unimportant chat room/forum.
Surely you must appreciate that it has no importance, no relevance, no influence on the disappearance of a missing little girl.?
 IMO of course.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #221 on: November 04, 2018, 04:36:15 AM »
Can we return to the topic please. of the relevance of cadaver dog alerts. 

Today I listened to a few YouTube videos on Bianca Jones and I'm surprised that her father has been found guilty of murdering his child.  IMO there is some similarity to the McCann case.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 04:39:28 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #222 on: November 04, 2018, 07:10:55 AM »
Can we return to the topic please. of the relevance of cadaver dog alerts. 

Today I listened to a few YouTube videos on Bianca Jones and I'm surprised that her father has been found guilty of murdering his child.  IMO there is some similarity to the McCann case.

I agree.

The child did have a habit of wetting herself, not unusual in a child of that age.  Urine is a body fluid that decomposes.  Do we know if Morse was trained not to alert to Urine?

Incidentally, the other children said that Bianca was in her car seat in the car when they were taken to school.  If I recall correctly.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #223 on: November 04, 2018, 07:47:34 AM »
I agree.

The child did have a habit of wetting herself, not unusual in a child of that age.  Urine is a body fluid that decomposes.  Do we know if Morse was trained not to alert to Urine?

Incidentally, the other children said that Bianca was in her car seat in the car when they were taken to school.  If I recall correctly.

...and on with the myths...
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #224 on: November 04, 2018, 07:54:37 AM »
...and on with the myths...

I think the greatest myth is that Eddie alerted to a cadaver in 5a
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 07:58:51 AM by Davel »