Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Eleanor]

...and on with the myths...

Her father said she was in the car when he took the children to school.  I think that was the point.

Eddie Alerted to Urine, so what's Mythical about that?

[G-Unit]

So what level of expertise would I need to achieve before you felt you could not contradict my opinion on film?

I think we're getting away from the thread point, which is about expert witnesses in a criminal trial. In the Zapata case, as someone in the McCann camp leaked to the media, a dog handler's evidence was rejected because his/her dogs didn't have a particularly good track record. The plan was to use this in the McCann's defense if the Portuguese decided to prosecute them. Gerry McCann went so far as to describe cadaver dogs as incredibly unreliable.

Gerry's sweeping statement about cadaver dogs was ignored by Martin Grime, who never commented publicly on it. It was answered when his evidence was accepted in the US in the Bianca Jones case because his dogs had an exemplary track record, which upheld his status as an expert in his field.


 

[Mr Gray]

I think we're getting away from the thread point, which is about expert witnesses in a criminal trial. In the Zapata case, as someone in the McCann camp leaked to the media, a dog handler's evidence was rejected because his/her dogs didn't have a particularly good track record. The plan was to use this in the McCann's defense if the Portuguese decided to prosecute them. Gerry McCann went so fat as to describe cadaver dogs as incredibly unreliable.

Gerry's sweeping statement about cadaver dogs was ignored by Martin Grime, who never commented publicly on it. It was answered when his evidence was accepted in the US in the Bianca Jones case because his dogs had an exemplary track record, which upheld his status as an expert in his field.

Could you explain how the alerts in Portugal could ever be used as evidence when the expert has said the alerts have no evidential reliability

[barrier]

Her father said she was in the car when he took the children to school.  I think that was the point.

Eddie Alerted to Urine, so what's Mythical about that?

Where and when did this supposed alert occur?

[Mr Gray]

I think we're getting away from the thread point, which is about expert witnesses in a criminal trial. In the Zapata case, as someone in the McCann camp leaked to the media, a dog handler's evidence was rejected because his/her dogs didn't have a particularly good track record. The plan was to use this in the McCann's defense if the Portuguese decided to prosecute them. Gerry McCann went so far as to describe cadaver dogs as incredibly unreliable.

Gerry's sweeping statement about cadaver dogs was ignored by Martin Grime, who never commented publicly on it. It was answered when his evidence was accepted in the US in the Bianca Jones case because his dogs had an exemplary track record, which upheld his status as an expert in his field.

Grime claims this exemplary record which includes this..



“I’m aware of no false positives for Morse,” he said. “We’ve never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it’s been shown to be incorrect.”

This statement sounds impressive but the alert to CC has not been shown to be incorrect ...which puts the claim into perspective... It could be that many of the dogs alerts are false positives... We just dont know... And neither does grime

[Vertigo Swirl]

...and on with the myths...

Which bits of that post were myths?

[G-Unit]

Could you explain how the alerts in Portugal could ever be used as evidence when the expert has said the alerts have no evidential reliability

The alerts themselves have no evidential reliability. Alerts by a reliable dog can be used successfully as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence though.

[Eleanor]

Where and when did this supposed alert occur?

Martin Grime stated that Eddie alerted to Decomposing Body Fluids, of which Urine is one.

[Eleanor]

Which bits of that post were myths?

Neither of them, VS.  But thanks for raising that.

[Mr Gray]

The alerts themselves have no evidential reliability. Alerts by a reliable dog can be used successfully as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence though.

Grime has stated clearly these alerts have no evidential reliability

[Vertigo Swirl]

I think we're getting away from the thread point, which is about expert witnesses in a criminal trial. In the Zapata case, as someone in the McCann camp leaked to the media, a dog handler's evidence was rejected because his/her dogs didn't have a particularly good track record. The plan was to use this in the McCann's defense if the Portuguese decided to prosecute them. Gerry McCann went so far as to describe cadaver dogs as incredibly unreliable.

Gerry's sweeping statement about cadaver dogs was ignored by Martin Grime, who never commented publicly on it. It was answered when his evidence was accepted in the US in the Bianca Jones case because his dogs had an exemplary track record, which upheld his status as an expert in his field.

In America they still execute people.  I don’t think that is acceptable, nor do I think it is acceptable that American judges permit dog alert evidence without accompanying forensic evidence, simply on the word of the dog handler and his “expert” buddies in the same field.  This is my opinion, like it or not.

[G-Unit]

Grime claims this exemplary record which includes this..



“I’m aware of no false positives for Morse,” he said. “We’ve never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it’s been shown to be incorrect.”

This statement sounds impressive but the alert to CC has not been shown to be incorrect ...which puts the claim into perspective... It could be that many of the dogs alerts are false positives... We just dont know... And neither does grime

Morse and Keela were tested by the FBI who confirmed Morse's impressive success rate.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Morse and Keela were tested by the FBI who confirmed Morse's impressive success rate.

How were these tests conducted?

[Eleanor]

The alerts themselves have no evidential reliability. Alerts by a reliable dog can be used successfully as part of a collection of circumstantial evidence though.

So long as there is other more compelling Evidence.  No one should ever be convicted on Dog Evidence alone.  So I tend to wonder how this was ever allowed in the first place.

It is Grandstanding in my opinion.

[barrier]

Martin Grime stated that Eddie alerted to Decomposing Body Fluids, of which Urine is one.

The point is though at what point in the chemical action of decomposing does urine cease to be urine,neither I nor any one else on here can say I venture, so to say the dog alerted to urine is a not stictly true.