Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294849 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1320 on: July 19, 2019, 12:13:24 PM »
So grime and an expert witness gave evidence which played a significant part in lanes conviction... Why then have you played silly games

It's not me playing silly games. I have never questioned the importance or significance of Grime's evidence.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1321 on: July 19, 2019, 12:20:11 PM »
It's not me playing silly games. I have never questioned the importance or significance of Grime's evidence.

I think it's quite reasonable to question any evidence... Especially when there, are, apparent contradictions

So you are classing his testimony as evidence now... That's progress
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 12:22:15 PM by Davel »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1322 on: July 19, 2019, 12:31:18 PM »
There's no evidence there was ever a cadaver in 5a pm
There is intelligence to suggest there had been a cadaver in 5A.

"operationally significant intelligence"  page #12/187  file:///C:/Users/Robert/Documents/Madeleine%20Mccann/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20%20(1).pdf
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 01:02:44 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1323 on: July 19, 2019, 03:47:10 PM »
Who has nothing to do with the McCann case.
If one cadaver dog can wrongly alert 45 times because his handler thinks he is in a place where a murder may have been committed then any dog can - IMO.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1324 on: July 19, 2019, 04:46:12 PM »
There is intelligence to suggest there had been a cadaver in 5A.

"operationally significant intelligence"  page #12/187  file:///C:/Users/Robert/Documents/Madeleine%20Mccann/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20%20(1).pdf

What is meant by intelligence in this context...
The fact that if children are harmed then statistically it's the parents who are most likely to be responsible....is intelligence...but not evidence

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1325 on: July 19, 2019, 06:49:18 PM »
If one cadaver dog can wrongly alert 45 times because his handler thinks he is in a place where a murder may have been committed then any dog can - IMO.

What about alerts that we’re not in such a place?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1326 on: July 19, 2019, 07:56:42 PM »
Everything looked perfect and orderly at the neat, raised-level, shingle-sided ranch house in Monroe, Connecticut. It had a manicured lawn, a round swimming pool in the backyard, and a new patio next to the pool. Robin Oppel, twenty-eight, had disappeared. Her husband, Kent Oppel, a twenty-nine-year-old self-employed businessman, had given the police permission to search the premises without a warrant.

Robin's car had been found abandoned twenty-five miles away nearly a month after she disappeared. Inside the car was a broken-off portion of an owl key ring but no sign of Robin. She was seen last on September 19, 1980. At first Andy thought he might start one of his bloodhounds to see if the dog, even after all that time, could pick up a trail and give them a direction of travel. That was a stretch, and he knew it. By then, detectives working the case had a hypothesis.

Rufus had been working as a body dog for three years when he and Andy arrived at the Monroe house to search. While Kent Oppel watched, Andy started Rufus on the front lawn, then down the side of the house and to the rear of the lawn. Rufus walked along the fence toward the swimming pool, stuck his nose in the dirt next to the newly laid concrete patio, and started digging. That was it. Andy walked him away and shrugged casually. He could hear Oppel telling bystanders that the dog obviously hadn't found a thing.

For long terrifying minutes, Andy thought perhaps Rufus had screwed up. Investigators jackhammered the concrete next to where Rufus had indicated, dug down a foot, and ran into electrical wires. Andy brought the dog's nose back in. Rufus, Andy recalled, started “digging to China.” Investigators kept shoveling. Just a little farther down, they saw a small object in the hole: the other half of the plastic owl key ring found in Robin's abandoned car. They kept going. Robin was four and a half feet down, under the concrete, beneath a layer of lime powder.

Because the body dog represented a new and fascinating canine career, sometimes journalists got the terminology wrong. Rufus, one newspaper reporter noted with great sincerity and inaccuracy, was “one of eight ‘dead dogs' in the country; the only one in New England.” Such reports of Rufus's death were premature. He recovered twenty-six bodies in his career.

What the Dog Knows: The Science and Wonder of Working Dogs
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1327 on: July 19, 2019, 07:58:16 PM »
What is meant by intelligence in this context...
The fact that if children are harmed then statistically it's the parents who are most likely to be responsible....is intelligence...but not evidence
I prefer the statistic for "family and acquaintances of the family".
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1328 on: July 19, 2019, 08:04:01 PM »
Rufus's successor sat next to Andy: She was a delicate, light-boned German shepherd he had named Lady.

Like Rufus, Lady ended up earning her kibble and taught Andy more about dogs' ability to find the dead. In mid-January 1987, it wasn't a buried body but a body spread far and wide case that involved forensic scientist Henry Lee (who later became famous as a defense expert in O. J. Simpson's trial). The case became the inspiration for the darkly comic Coen brothers' movie Fargo.

Helle Crafts, a flight attendant, was missing after beginning divorce proceedings against her philandering husband, Richard Crafts, an airline pilot. Crafts had used his credit card to rent a wood chipper and to buy a freezer and a chain saw. A snowplow driver reported seeing a man using a wood chipper along the bank of Connecticut's Housatonic River in the middle of the night during a snowstorm.

Lady was put to the tedious task of sniffing piles and piles of frozen wood chips hauled in from the riverbank. One pile was particularly interesting: Lady alerted. It's here. What she had found, although tiny, was human. Ultimately, because of Lady's alert, police recovered sixty tiny chips of bone. A bit of blood. Strands of blond hair. A tooth with a gold crown. And a fingernail whose color exactly matched a bottle of polish in Helle Crafts's bathroom cabinet. It was the first time in Connecticut history that a murder conviction was secured without a body. Richard Crafts was sentenced to fifty years in prison in 1990. The earliest he can be released is August 2021, when he'll be eighty-four years old.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1329 on: July 19, 2019, 08:04:54 PM »
If one cadaver dog can wrongly alert 45 times because his handler thinks he is in a place where a murder may have been committed then any dog can - IMO.
It would also reflect on those who design the training and certification of these cadaver dogs in that country.

A dog will look to its master and pick up cuing from that.  Also as I said before if a dog is rewarded every time it alerts rightly or wrongly it will alert more often to get the rewards.
But that should have been picked up by those  independently certifying the dog.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1330 on: July 19, 2019, 08:11:37 PM »
It would also reflect on those who design the training and certification of these cadaver dogs in that country.

A dog will look to its master and pick up cuing from that.  Also as I said before if a dog is rewarded every time it alerts rightly or wrongly it will alert more often to get the rewards.
But that should have been picked up by those  independently certifying the dog.

is the training and certification any better in the uk

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1331 on: July 19, 2019, 08:13:51 PM »
"A dog, I suppose."

"Yes,--a queer mongrel, with a most amazing power of scent. I would rather have Toby's help than that of the whole detective force of London." Sherlock Holmes

https://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Arthur_Conan_Doyle/Sign_of_the_Four/Sherlock_Holmes_Gives_a_Demonstration_p6.html
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1332 on: July 19, 2019, 08:14:33 PM »
What is meant by intelligence in this context...
...snip...
Those papers written by Grime has used the word "intelligence" 164 times.  I'll go back through them to see if Grime himself defines what he means by "intelligence".
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 08:23:11 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1333 on: July 19, 2019, 08:17:05 PM »
is the training and certification any better in the uk
As far as I know (afaik) it is.  I have seen comments about not rewarding the dog in the field for no one can be certain if the find is genuine at that stage. 
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1334 on: July 19, 2019, 08:20:03 PM »
for those who claim how useful the dogs are...well how useful are they. What has grime acheived with his dogs since 2007....12 years...what success has he had

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Forensic Canine Search Consultancy
August 2007 – Present 12 years
Provision of Canine Search Services to Law Enforcement.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 08:26:10 PM by Davel »