Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294485 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1635 on: July 24, 2019, 12:21:26 AM »
Eddie was not trained to pick up potential evidence with his mouth. Another cadaver dog was not deployed to validate Eddie's alerts. Keela's alerts neither corroborated nor invalidated potential cadaver odour in the areas Eddie barked.
I'm not interested in what Perlin thinks he can do with a mixed & incomplete DNA test result. Confirming the presence of a speck of Madeleine's DNA would add nothing to the investigation imo.
Eddie is still very much a dog.  Had he come across a tennis ball he may have picked it up, as he did with a soft toy that had a resemblance to a cat.  Dogs just love worrying cats.  Its their nature.
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Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1636 on: July 24, 2019, 12:32:45 AM »
Eddie is still very much a dog.  Had he come across a tennis ball he may have picked it up, as he did with a soft toy that had a resemblance to a cat.  Dogs just love worrying cats.  Its their nature.

Would you therefore tend to agree that a cadaver dog which deviates from its discipline is unreliable?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1637 on: July 24, 2019, 12:37:29 AM »
Eddie was not trained to pick up potential evidence with his mouth. Another cadaver dog was not deployed to validate Eddie's alerts. Keela's alerts neither corroborated nor invalidated potential cadaver odour in the areas Eddie barked.
I'm not interested in what Perlin thinks he can do with a mixed & incomplete DNA test result. Confirming the presence of a speck of Madeleine's DNA would add nothing to the investigation imo.

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference but ...

I watched two episodes of Dog Patrol, between 4 am and 5 am last morning.  One of them had yesterday's most heartwarming story.

There was a small dog, a terrier.  It was unwanted and due to be destroyed.  It was on 'death row'.

For whatever unexplained reason, the terrier was rescued, and trained up for police service.  It is now a drug detection dog, apparently quite good according to its handler.

The video showed the dog scampering across a conveyor belt with numerous incoming packages.

AFAIK, terriers are not the dog of choice for police or customs, but this terrier was keen.

The dog hit on an interesting package.  The terrier did not sit down, nor did it bark at the package.

The package was roughly the same size as the terrier.  The dog had one attempt at picking the pack up in its jaws, then a second go.  On the 3rd attempt the dog managed to grab the package, ark its neck upward, and triumphantly able to display its prize.

The package was confirmed by humans as a drug shipment.

Nota bene.  There is no standard signal for a dog alert.



What's up, old man?

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1638 on: July 24, 2019, 12:46:20 AM »
Was the dog rewarded immediately after the find?

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1639 on: July 24, 2019, 12:54:41 AM »
Eddie was not trained to pick up potential evidence with his mouth. Another cadaver dog was not deployed to validate Eddie's alerts. Keela's alerts neither corroborated nor invalidated potential cadaver odour in the areas Eddie barked.
I'm not interested in what Perlin thinks he can do with a mixed & incomplete DNA test result. Confirming the presence of a speck of Madeleine's DNA would add nothing to the investigation imo.

I said Eddie did what he was trained to do. He was trained to alert if he detected cadavar odour. What on earth are you talking about regarding picking up a corpse with his mouth?....  I didn't say Keela corroborated Eddie's alert. I said Eddie and Keela between them indicated to areas where forensic scientists may be able to find evidence. The team in question found human cellular material. Some of which had 15 DNA markers possessed by MM. You may not be interested in an investigation, nor for a scientific interpretation of the DNA data but there is an on-going investigation into the disappearance of a child and whether you're interested or not isn't relevant.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1640 on: July 24, 2019, 01:04:26 AM »
Was the dog rewarded immediately after the find?

I don't know, because I can't remember.

In most dog clips I have seen, the dog in operational deployment is rewarded immediately after the alert.

If you think it through, one cannot wait for an hour or two before humans manage to deny or confirm that the alert is correct.  The dog would not remember whether is was being denied a treat, or whether it got it right.

I don't know what happens in training.  Do the dogs get rewarded for alerting?  For not alerting?  For working diligently?  I don't know the answer.
What's up, old man?

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1641 on: July 24, 2019, 01:07:26 AM »
I don't know, because I can't remember.

In most dog clips I have seen, the dog in operational deployment is rewarded immediately after the alert.

If you think it through, one cannot wait for an hour or two before humans manage to deny or confirm that the alert is correct.  The dog would not remember whether is was being denied a treat, or whether it got it right.

I don't know what happens in training.  Do the dogs get rewarded for alerting?  For not alerting?  For working diligently?  I don't know the answer.

However we do know that research in peer reviewed scientific journals show that they are 92-100% when they alert to cadaver odour that is known to be present in trials.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1642 on: July 24, 2019, 01:16:07 AM »
However we do know that research in peer reviewed scientific journals show that they are 92-100% when they alert to cadaver odour that is known to be present in trials.

The doggie in my tale was a drug doggie, not a cadaver doggie.  Nor a fire doggie, or a cash doggie, or a firearms doggie, or a tracker doggie.

Iv'e no reason at this time to think that one can fit all of those into the same shoebox.
What's up, old man?

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1643 on: July 24, 2019, 01:23:38 AM »
The doggie in my tale was a drug doggie, not a cadaver doggie.  Nor a fire doggie, or a cash doggie, or a firearms doggie, or a tracker doggie.

Iv'e no reason at this time to think that one can fit all of those into the same shoebox.

No I've not come across that... Cue Super Grime and dog!! Woof!!

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1644 on: July 24, 2019, 01:26:21 AM »
Would you therefore tend to agree that a cadaver dog which deviates from its discipline is unreliable?
No because it is a dog. That seems to be stating the obvious, but if a dog wasn't allowed to be a dog it wouldn't be a dog.  It would be a machine.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1645 on: July 24, 2019, 01:31:03 AM »
I don't know, because I can't remember.

In most dog clips I have seen, the dog in operational deployment is rewarded immediately after the alert.

If you think it through, one cannot wait for an hour or two before humans manage to deny or confirm that the alert is correct.  The dog would not remember whether is was being denied a treat, or whether it got it right.

I don't know what happens in training.  Do the dogs get rewarded for alerting?  For not alerting?  For working diligently?  I don't know the answer.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm  (verbal report)

*snipped*

Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
*snipped"
"During training, the dogs are barely rewarded for positive alert signals regarding targets of known substances."


When the dog is searching for the target scent it's really seeking the resultant award. Isn't confusing for a dog to NOT be rewarded following an alert, irrespective of whether the alert is right or wrong? How can repeated alerts without reward all be construed as genuine?

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1646 on: July 24, 2019, 01:35:17 AM »
No because it is a dog. That seems to be stating the obvious, but if a dog wasn't allowed to be a dog it wouldn't be a dog.  It would be a machine.

So how can you consider a dog 100% reliable when it deviates from training not to contaminate evidence? If it's failing in one area may it not also be failing when attempting to locate target scent?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1647 on: July 24, 2019, 01:39:12 AM »
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm  (verbal report)

*snipped*

Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
*snipped"
"During training, the dogs are barely rewarded for positive alert signals regarding targets of known substances."


When the dog is searching for the target scent it's really seeking the resultant award. Isn't confusing for a dog to NOT be rewarded following an alert, irrespective of whether the alert is right or wrong? How can repeated alerts without reward all be construed as genuine?
I think it is important to reward the dogs if the result is right during training but not during an operation where Grime would not know if the dog is right or wrong.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1648 on: July 24, 2019, 01:40:48 AM »
So how can you consider a dog 100% reliable when it deviates from training not to contaminate evidence? If it's failing in one area may it not also be failing when attempting to locate target scent?

Read the journals. It is scientific research and potential pitfalls and bias are  considered.

The 100% means on a certain day dog "A" will alert correctly X out of X times when cadaver odour is present on an object hidden with other objects in a test area. There are many variables tested and researched.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1649 on: July 24, 2019, 01:45:40 AM »
Read the journals. It is scientific research and potential pitfalls and bias are  considered.

The 100% means on a certain day dog "A" will alert correctly X out of X times when cadaver odour is present on an object hidden with other objects in a test area. There are many variables tested and researched.
Does Misty think the dogs will always have to be 100% reliable?
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.