Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Mr Gray]

The type of testing used in this case, low copy number (lcn), is as good as useless.  I spent a lot of time understanding lcn when I was on the Bamber case as it featured heavily at one of the appeal hearings.  The 3 appeal court judges ruled it as "utterly meaningless".  It will be a useful tool in some cases but in this case, as with Bamber, its impossible to rule out innocent contamination.  With lcn the 'human cellular material' ie source material is unknown eg saliva, blood, skin cells etc.  It works with samples invisible to the naked eye. 

I note many commentators such as Jim Gamble from CEOP explain the possibility of MM's DNA in the car from GM/KM but its just as likely it came from items MM had contact with which then contaminated other places she had the slightest contact with either directly or indirectly.  A reading, full or partial, can be picked up from some material as small as 1,000,000th the size of grain of salt  .

yet LCN DNA was used by the courts until there was a robust scientific challenge.

[Robittybob1]

You made a suggestion that grime could have made some arrangement with amaral ..it's probably still there

Someone thought I had said that but I hadn't at all.

[Robittybob1]

In Luz grime and Harrison talked of physical corroboration...now grime is talking about anecdotal witness statements....the goalposts have been moved

Did they know there were no anecdotal witnesses?

[Holly Goodhead]

yet LCN DNA was used by the courts until there was a robust scientific challenge.

Yes Omagh bombing I believe.  Maybe it could be used in some cases but certainly not Bamber or this case as victim LCN DNA would be all over the place from innocent contamination.

[Mr Gray]

Someone thought I had said that but I hadn't at all.

yes you did..

Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg547038#msg547038

[Robittybob1]

yes you did..

Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg547038#msg547038

Davel:  "You made a suggestion that grime could have made some arrangement with amaral ..it's probably still there"
Robittybob1: "Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing"

I honestly can't see how my statement means "that Grime could have made some arrangement with Amaral".

What do you mean by arrangement?  I'm suggesting Amaral may have outlined his theory to Grime.  Is that an arrangement?

[Mr Gray]

Davel:  "You made a suggestion that grime could have made some arrangement with amaral ..it's probably still there"
Robittybob1: "Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing"

I honestly can't see how my statement means "that Grime could have made some arrangement with Amaral".

What do you mean by arrangement?  I'm suggesting Amaral may have outlined his theory to Grime.  Is that an arrangement?

you need to look at the context

[Robittybob1]

you need to look at the context

I wrote the paragraph so I know the context. 

[Mr Gray]

I wrote the paragraph so I know the context.

I agree arrangeemnt was the wrong word but....this was the calim billy made..



So let’s just get this clear you do not assert that Grime (possibly after discussing the case with Amaral) gave cues to the dogs to alert at certain locations connected to the McCann’s because he had ceased acting as a Policeman and was instead acting as a businessman concerned with personal financial gain?

thinking i had made your statement re amaral /grime...I didnt make the statement ..it was you

[Robittybob1]

I have gone back to those posts
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg547038#msg547038

Billy asked in his post "How would Grime know that there would be no transferable cadaver odour in 4G, for example... and how can he cue Keela to alert at the precise location in the hire car where human cellular material is found?"

I notice now that my reply did not refer to the actual site Billy was questioning. 
My reply "Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing?"

I make no suggestions about Grime cuing Keela in the boot of the hire car.

[Mr Gray]

I have gone back to those posts
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg547038#msg547038

Billy asked in his post "How would Grime know that there would be no transferable cadaver odour in 4G, for example... and how can he cue Keela to alert at the precise location in the hire car where human cellular material is found?"

I notice now that my reply did not refer to the actual site Billy was questioning. 
My reply "Well he could of course if Amaral had other intelligence indicating something happened behind the couch, and a bag was missing from the wardrobe and he had advised Grime of the theory.  When did Amaral first notice the bag was missing?"

I make no suggestions about Grime cuing Keela in the boot of the hire car.

Neither did I

[Robittybob1]

Neither did I

You've lost me now.  You didn't and I didn't.  So what is the issue?

[barrier]

I don't know, because I can't remember.

In most dog clips I have seen, the dog in operational deployment is rewarded immediately after the alert.

If you think it through, one cannot wait for an hour or two before humans manage to deny or confirm that the alert is correct.  The dog would not remember whether is was being denied a treat, or whether it got it right.

I don't know what happens in training.  Do the dogs get rewarded for alerting?  For not alerting?  For working diligently?  I don't know the answer.

There have been some I've seen on watching the Canadian border police at work,the dog is not rewarded until its been confirmed what it was in the package,once confirmed this was done by placing the package on the floor along with dummy packs and the dog alerts again getting a reward thus reinforcing its ongoing training.

[Mr Gray]

You've lost me now.  You didn't and I didn't.  So what is the issue?

It's not important

[G-Unit]

You've lost me now.  You didn't and I didn't.  So what is the issue?

You both say you didn't and neither of you made clear unambiguous allegations. What you both did do imo was hint. One of you about possible collaberation between Amaral and Grine, the other about possible ulterior motives driving Grime.