Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Eddie was never tasked to find human cadaver or body parts during his ACPO testing in the UK. How should this untested skill have been evaluated for reliability when sent on live deployments?

Cite required please. Or Eddie’s training documentation will do. Thanks.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Someone thought I had said that but I hadn't at all.

DaveL said I was mixing up what you had said with what he has said.... but read back through the thread. It was DaveL who said Grime acted for financial self gain... He pretended he hadn't said it, then muddied the waters by saying you had!!

Here it is again.... First quote below is DaveL... second one from me...

 

  My problem with Martin grime is that during the searches in luz he was ceasing to be a policeman and becoming a businessman. As a businessman he has a financial interest in promoting the alerts as valuable.....that to me provides a conflict of interest. Ive no doubt he believes in the ability of his dogs...but can we rule out confirmation bias.

Davel - see above!!! It was you that said it and as I stated that is an incredibly serious allegation. You haven't even worded it carefully as you claimed... but instead it is stated as fact: "in luz he was ceasing to be a policeman and becoming a businessman. As a businessman he has a financial interest in promoting the alerts as valuable".

[Robittybob1]

DaveL said I was mixing up what you had said with what he has said.... but read back through the thread. It was DaveL who said Grime acted for financial self gain... He pretended he hadn't said it, then muddied the waters by saying you had!!

Here it is again.... First quote below is DaveL... second one from me...

 

Sounds about right.

[misty]

Cite required please. Or Eddie’s training documentation will do. Thanks.

https://www.btp.police.uk/PDF/FOI%20Response%201074-16%20-%20Police%20Dogs%20Manual%20of%20Guidance.pdf

ACPO training manual. Cadaver dog section starts at page 116. On page 117 you'll find listed what the dogs are trained with. The use of human cadaver/body parts was, and still is, illegal in UK, therefore a dog cannot be trained or tested to find those specific remains.

[ShiningInLuz]

https://www.btp.police.uk/PDF/FOI%20Response%201074-16%20-%20Police%20Dogs%20Manual%20of%20Guidance.pdf

ACPO training manual. Cadaver dog section starts at page 116. On page 117 you'll find listed what the dogs are trained with. The use of human cadaver/body parts was, and still is, illegal in UK, therefore a dog cannot be trained or tested to find those specific remains.

Nice!   

[Holly Goodhead]

https://www.btp.police.uk/PDF/FOI%20Response%201074-16%20-%20Police%20Dogs%20Manual%20of%20Guidance.pdf

ACPO training manual. Cadaver dog section starts at page 116. On page 117 you'll find listed what the dogs are trained with. The use of human cadaver/body parts was, and still is, illegal in UK, therefore a dog cannot be trained or tested to find those specific remains.

Thanks misty, interesting.

[barrier]

https://www.btp.police.uk/PDF/FOI%20Response%201074-16%20-%20Police%20Dogs%20Manual%20of%20Guidance.pdf

ACPO training manual. Cadaver dog section starts at page 116. On page 117 you'll find listed what the dogs are trained with. The use of human cadaver/body parts was, and still is, illegal in UK, therefore a dog cannot be trained or tested to find those specific remains.

Which is probably why Grime took Eddie to the states.

He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odour from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.
                                                                       

 

[Eleanor]

Which is probably why Grime took Eddie to the states.

He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odour from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.
                                                                       

 

No mention of Eddie in that Quote.

[barrier]

Sigh,umpteenth time.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

[Eleanor]

Sigh,umpteenth time.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

But not before Eddie was taken to Portugal.

[barrier]

But not before Eddie was taken to Portugal.

How do you work that one out.
Dated Eddie & Keela Martin Grime Report
August 2007

[Eleanor]

How do you work that one out.
Dated Eddie & Keela Martin Grime Report
August 2007

Under no circumstances would The South Yorkshire Police have allowed Martin Grime to take Eddie to America to engage in a practice that is illegal in Britain.  Let alone have paid the costs.

[Robittybob1]

No mention of Eddie in that Quote.

But that is why Eddie was called EVRD rather than just a lowly old VRD.  He had been enhanced with the new training using human cadaver samples.

Under no circumstances would The South Yorkshire Police have allowed Martin Grime to take Eddie to America to engage in a practice that is illegal in Britain.  Let alone have paid the costs.

Could that be why he went out on his own.

[Holly Goodhead]

Sigh,umpteenth time.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationallylocating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

I still consider myself a newbie so please be patient but 'Eddie' didn't do the above in 5A or the hire car? 

[jassi]

Under no circumstances would The South Yorkshire Police have allowed Martin Grime to take Eddie to America to engage in a practice that is illegal in Britain.  Let alone have paid the costs.

Where do you get that idea from?