Who killed Bambi ?

[APRIL]

What evidence exists, if any, showing JB's claim of a call from NB came after JB called JM?

Jeremy himself. It was he who said he wanted to hear a friendly voice. Without an alleged call from Nevill, there'd have been no reason to idle away time looking for the number of a convenient police station, and no reason to get Julie out of bed at silly o'clock.

[Holly Goodhead]

None other than your favourite officer Stan the Man!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6YeQ1djbM

In one of the books, I think.

For a moment I thought that read Pete In A Skirt... is she really a he?

Thanks, I thought it might have been DS Jones.

I wonder what John Stephen Holby Smith said about the accuracy of the clock?

Pele In A Skirt aka female Brazilian forward Marta Vieira da Silva - the best FIFA women's player 2018 (and UN goodwill ambassador for girls and women in sport). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoyeRU-S9mc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV3c3K8Kj70

[Holly Goodhead]

Jeremy himself. It was he who said he wanted to hear a friendly voice. Without an alleged call from Nevill, there'd have been no reason to idle away time looking for the number of a convenient police station, and no reason to get Julie out of bed at silly o'clock.

I don't think anyone doubts JB called JM circa 3.30am?  JB said he called JM circa 3.30am.  JM said JB called her circa 3.30am.  JM's house sharing pals said JB called JM circa 3.30am. 

What evidence exists, if any, showing JB's claim of a call from NB came after JB called JM at circa 3.30am.

 

[John]

There was originally some confusion about the timing of Jeremy Bamber's call to Julie Mugford , with flatmates giving different times - Sue (3:12), Joanna Wood (between 2:00 & 2:59) and Helen Eaton (3:00 to 3:30).  So in the end they settled on around 3 a.m., a good twenty to thirty minutes before Bamber called the police.

During his interview shortly after the murders Jeremy mixed up the timings of the telephone calls.

And in 2003 he claimed that, "I did not speak to Julie prior to speaking to the police, but spoke to her after I had spoken to them. The principle reason I spoke to her was because I was concerned about phoning the police and getting them involved in a private family matter."

[Caroline]

I don't think anyone doubts JB called JM circa 3.30am? JB said he called JM circa 3.30am.  JM said JB called her circa 3.30am.  JM's house sharing pals said JB called JM circa 3.30am. 

What evidence exists, if any, showing JB's claim of a call from NB came after JB called JM at circa 3.30am.

I do!

I don't understand the question you keep asking?

[Holly Goodhead]

There was originally some confusion about the timing of Jeremy Bamber's call to Julie Mugford , with flatmates giving different times - Sue (3:12), Joanna Wood (between 2:00 & 2:59) and Helen Eaton (3:00 to 3:30).  So in the end they settled on around 3 a.m., a good twenty to thirty minutes before Bamber called the police.

 

But surely the fact a bunch of people gave varying times does not then make the time of 3 am accurate?  JM's WS of 8th Aug has the time at about  3.30 am. 

During his interview shortly after the murders Jeremy mixed up the timings of the telephone calls.

JB's WS of 7th Aug states about 3.25am.  He was not then asked about the times again until over a month later.

And in 2003 he claimed that, "I did not speak to Julie prior to speaking to the police, but spoke to her after I had spoken to them. The principle reason I spoke to her was because I was concerned about phoning the police and getting them involved in a private family matter."

I don't know what he said in 2003, some 18 years after the event.  I go by what he said in his WS on 7th Aug which was taken only hours after the event.

[Holly Goodhead]

I do!

JB's WS 7th Aug - he claims he called JM about 3.25am
JM's WS 8th Aug - she claims JB called her about 3.30am

I don't understand the question you keep asking?

What reliable evidence exists re times of tel calls eg digitally recorded info from tel comm providers with a timed call to the second?   None.  Just various guesstimates.  Even those paid and trained to record times accurately were incapable of doing so with civilian Malcolm Bonnett and PC West some 10 minutes out.

I thought JB told JM he had committed the perfect murder?  If so I'm surprised he didn't have his 'story' off pat.

 

[Angelo222]

JB's WS 7th Aug - he claims he called JM about 3.25am
JM's WS 8th Aug - she claims JB called her about 3.30am

What reliable evidence exists re times of tel calls eg digitally recorded info from tel comm providers with a timed call to the second?   None.  Just various guesstimates.  Even those paid and trained to record times accurately were incapable of doing so with civilian Malcolm Bonnett and PC West some 10 minutes out.

I thought JB told JM he had committed the perfect murder?  If so I'm surprised he didn't have his 'story' off pat.

I believe that Mugford was wrong to claim that his call was received at 3.30am. In my opinion based on the evidence of the other three girls in the house, the call was received just after 3am when Bamber got back to the farmhouse. That call most likely lasted some 15 minutes and it was then at around 3.26am that Bamber called Chelmsford Police. That call ended at about 3.36am and was duly recorded as such.

Bambers delay in going to the farm was due to him changing his clothes and cleaning up. He probably hid the bloodstained clothing on his way to the farm and later disposed of it completely.  Had the police conducted a search of Bourtree Cottage and his route to the farm immediately after the murders they might just have found those items. As it was, blood discovered under a passenger seat of his father's car, which Jeremy just happened to be using, was indicative of blood stained clothing having been stashed there earlier.

[Caroline]

JB's WS 7th Aug - he claims he called JM about 3.25am
JM's WS 8th Aug - she claims JB called her about 3.30am

What reliable evidence exists re times of tel calls eg digitally recorded info from tel comm providers with a timed call to the second?   None.  Just various guesstimates.  Even those paid and trained to record times accurately were incapable of doing so with civilian Malcolm Bonnett and PC West some 10 minutes out.

I thought JB told JM he had committed the perfect murder?  If so I'm surprised he didn't have his 'story' off pat.

He also let slip that he called Julie first and that he called her to get advice as to what to do. He can't be believed - NOW he is arguing that West's times are correct having previously accused him of falsifying the logs. Julie would (initially) do as she was told.

[Caroline]

I believe that Mugford was wrong to claim that his call was received at 3.30am. In my opinion based on the evidence of the other three girls in the house, the call was received just after 3am when Bamber got back to the farmhouse. That call most likely lasted some 15 minutes and it was then at around 3.26am that Bamber called Chelmsford Police. That call ended at about 3.36am and was duly recorded as such.

Bambers delay in going to the farm was due to him changing his clothes and cleaning up. He probably hid the bloodstained clothing on his way to the farm and later disposed of it completely.  Had the police conducted a search of Bourtree Cottage and his route to the farm immediately after the murders they might just have found those items. As it was, blood discovered under a passenger seat of his father's car, which Jeremy just happened to be using, was indicative of blood stained clothing having been stashed there earlier.

I think he hid them in the fire pit - the same pit they used to burn the bedding etc. and where he had his mum and dads clothes destroyed only a week later.

[Myster]

I don't think anyone doubts JB called JM circa 3.30am?  JB said he called JM circa 3.30am.  JM said JB called her circa 3.30am.  JM's house sharing pals said JB called JM circa 3.30am. 

What evidence exists, if any, showing JB's claim of a call from NB came after JB called JM at circa 3.30am.

Yes they do!  He said he wasn't on the phone to Julie for very long because he had to ring the police, so he then fiddled about with a phone directory for 10 minutes looking for the nearest police station number when his father was in mortal danger and desperate for help.







But of course, in reality, he woke Julie up from her beauty sleep nearer to 3am soon after scuttling back from WHF because he couldn't wait until morning to tell her the dirty deed which he'd been planning for months was completed successfully..

[Holly Goodhead]

I believe that Mugford was wrong to claim that his call was received at 3.30am. In my opinion based on the evidence of the other three girls in the house, the call was received just after 3am when Bamber got back to the farmhouse. That call most likely lasted some 15 minutes and it was then at around 3.26am that Bamber called Chelmsford Police. That call ended at about 3.36am and was duly recorded as such.

JM gave the time of 3.30 am having phoned the shared house in an attempt to establish what time JB called all of which was witnessed by AE and EP. 

304. To consider this aspect of this ground, it is necessary to look at the available evidence at trial. The starting point has to be what Julie Mugford said at trial and in earlier statements. In the statement that she made to the police on the 8 August following a telephone call to one of her house mates, she said that the phone call had been at about 3.30 a.m. In a later statement she said that she had since learnt from Susan Battersby that it was at 3.15 a.m. In evidence she said that she had been woken by the telephone call between 3 a.m. and 3.30 a.m. She said that she had not looked at any watch or clock. In cross-examination, her first statement was put to her and the passage including the approximate time of 3.30 a.m. was read to the jury and she acknowledged that that was what she had said at the time. Mr Rivlin did not choose to establish that she had spoken to one of her flatmates before committing herself to the time of 3.30 a.m. although that fact was apparent from the evidence available to him. Doubtless this was because he thought it was of greater advantage that her independent recollection was 3.30 a.m. rather than establishing that it was or may have been somebody else's recollection. In any event the evidence that she had given did not conflict as to timing with the defence case.

At trial it was established that PC West misread the clock and JB's call was in fact at, or shortly before 3.26 am. 

26. PC West recorded the time of the appellant's call as 3.36 a.m. At trial it was accepted that the officer had misread a digital clock. The officer's contact with Mr Bonnett was recorded as being at 3.26 a.m, and it seems clear that the appellant's call must have been at 3.26 a.m. or very shortly before.

27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm.

Bambers delay in going to the farm was due to him changing his clothes and cleaning up. He probably hid the bloodstained clothing on his way to the farm and later disposed of it completely.  Had the police conducted a search of Bourtree Cottage and his route to the farm immediately after the murders they might just have found those items. As it was, blood discovered under a passenger seat of his father's car, which Jeremy just happened to be using, was indicative of blood stained clothing having been stashed there earlier.

What do you think caused JB's clothes to become blood stained? 

If you believe JB's clothes were blood stained in such a way blood was capable of transferring to other surfaces, ie you have suggested NB's car, how do you think he managed to exit WHF, supposedly through a window, without tranferring blood to the surrounding area?  And/or transferring blood to the bike he supposedly used as his get away mode of transport which was foreniscally analysed by FSS?

[Holly Goodhead]

He also let slip that he called Julie first and that he called her to get advice as to what to do. He can't be believed - NOW he is arguing that West's times are correct having previously accused him of falsifying the logs. Julie would (initially) do as she was told.

But others who can't recall and/or change WS's etc can? 

In the absence of digitally recorded info provided by independent witnesses it's all unreliable.  Roll on 10 years after the Bamber case and this is what reliable tel evidence looks like (taken from Rettendon case CoA doc):

The telephone evidence

At trial the prosecution adduced detailed evidence of telephone calls to and from land lines and mobile phones which belonged to Nicholls, Steele, Whomes, Tate and his associates. The telephone companies provided details as to the time and duration of calls. In addition, this was one of the first cases in which the position of the makers and recipients of mobile phone calls was identified by the location of the cell sites through which the phones had sent or received the call. There was a great deal of factual and expert evidence on this subject at the trial. We shall have to return to it later as it gave rise to one of the bases upon which the Criminal Cases Review Commission referred the matter to this Court. At the moment it is sufficient to summarise some of what it established. It included telephone contact between Nicholls and Steele on 6 December while Nicholls was still in the Sunbury area in the middle of the day. It also established contact between Steele's mobile phone and that of Whomes at 14.11. Around 14.30 there were calls from a telephone kiosk near a public house close to where Whomes was working. Two of the calls were to the mobile phone of Tucker and one (a missed call) was to the mobile phone of Tate. At 14.32 there was a call to a telephone kiosk in Basildon, close to where Tate lived. About 20 minutes later there was a call from the same telephone kiosk to Nicholls' mobile phone. There was other telephone contact between Nicholls and Steele, and Steele and Whomes in the course of the afternoon. At 17.03 a call was made from a telephone kiosk near The Halfway House public house on the A127 to Tate's mobile phone. Whomes telephoned Steele via the mobile phones at 17.12. At 18.03 and 18.09 calls were recorded between Steele's mobile phone and that of Whomes. At 18.44 there was a call of almost 4 minutes duration from an address in Basildon where Sarah Saunders was and the mobile phone of Tate. The case for the prosecution was that it was the call overheard by Steele as described by Nicholls at a time when Steele and Tate were in or near the Range Rover in the farm track at Rettenden. That call ended at about 18.48. At 18.59 two short calls were made from Whomes' mobile phone to that of Nicholls. The case for the prosecution was that they, or one of them (they lasted one and four seconds respectively) included the 'pick-up' call. Although there was no medical or scientific evidence as to the time of death of the three deceased, the case for the prosecution was that the murders took place between 18.48 and 18.59 and that the telephone evidence supported this. It is a fact that the mobile phones of the deceased men did not make or receive effective calls after that time. Although their bodies were not found until the following day, they had been expected home before 20.00hrs because they had social engagements. Both Tate and Tucker died with their mobile phones in their hands.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think he hid them in the fire pit - the same pit they used to burn the bedding etc. and where he had his mum and dads clothes destroyed only a week later.

What do you think caused JB's clothes to become blood stained? 

What, if any, forensic evidence do you think was lost through the destroyed bedding?

What would be the purpose of JB, or anyone, hanging on to his deceased parents clothes?

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes they do!  He said he wasn't on the phone to Julie for very long because he had to ring the police, so he then fiddled about with a phone directory for 10 minutes looking for the nearest police station number when his father was in mortal danger and desperate for help.







But of course, in reality, he woke Julie up from her beauty sleep nearer to 3am soon after scuttling back from WHF because he couldn't wait until morning to tell her the dirty deed which he'd been planning for months was completed successfully..

The most reliable WS's are those made immediately after the event not those made a month later.