The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[debunker]

The very nature of the term "independent witnesses" precludes the tapas 7.   The allegation is that these seven individuals somehow colluded in a conspiracy to cover up a crime.  These were not casual acquaintances whom the McCanns met on holiday but friends and associates who chose to go on holiday abroad together.  They are therefore not independent of each other nor can they be designated as independent witnesses.

Cite for their previous relationships please- it might surprise you how unconnected some of them were!

[debunker]

Hmmm would you class someone like Jayne Tanner as a friend or associate?  Until this holday she had only met the McCanns half a dozen times over a period of 4 years  and never on a one to one basis - but just as guests at the same birthday parties and weddings etc.      She was Fiona Paynes friend.

I believe she did say she was getting to know Kate on this holiday because they took their tennis lessons together  -  but she also said words to the effect that although Gerry was fine - he was not quite her cup of tea.

I don't think I would describe a 'friend of a friend' as a 'friend of mine'.

Also wasn't there another couple (can't remember who at the moment) - who had not seen the McCanns for 3 years before this holiday?

Benice, there are obviously degrees of "independence".
The alibi given by a wife to her husband has no value, even if the husband was with her when the crime occurred. But also a wife can't testify against her husband, even if she saw him murder someone. Hence the staging in "Witness for the Prosecution".

Alibi evidence from a spouse does have evidential value.

[debunker]

You may be a touch out of date there Anne.  Under UK law the relevant legislation is PACE S80

Commentary:  A spouse or civil partner of a defendant is almost always considered a competent witness for either side, and may choose to testify for or against their spouse. A defendant may, when relevant, compel their spouse or civil partner to testify on their behalf. The prosecution however, may only compel the testimony of the defendant's spouse or civil partner in cases of domestic abuse or violence or sexual offences towards persons under 16. When the spouse or civil partner is a co-defendant to the charges, they may not be compelled to testify.

Note that while this gives special recognition to spousal relationships and civil partnerships, the law does not provide for a privilege and it is never possible to exclude evidence solely on the basis that it was a private conversation between a married couple.

With women acquiring an independent juridical statute Common Law had to evolve. But the institution of marriage ("for the best and the worse") had also to be protected and the dialectic isn't so easy, since the qualities of spouse and part in the process aren't compatible.

Does that 'translate to' "I am sorry, I was wrong to suggest that a wife's alibi is not good evidence and I am sorry to have misled the board"?

[AnneGuedes]

I'm afraid there is one way I can square that particular circle ...

There was a permanent post installed around the corner, but Mrs Fenn had seen nothing before 22h30, in particular no abductor. She certainly thought it was better not to disturb the investigation with a story showing the checkings weren't every half an hour.

[debunker]

Sequence of events as I can piece them together from the file:

John Elliot Manager

With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28

Lindsay Johnson

She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.

Amy T.


The witness confirms that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 – 35 minutes to arrive.


Helger receptionist

He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.

I'm afraid that's rather cherry picking from the statements. I think there is enough disparity in timings between witnesses to make almost anything possible between 8.30 and 10.30 on the night of Madeleine's disappearance..

Which is why trying to decipher it is a complete waste of time by pretendy policemen (and women).

[Mrs. B]

I'm afraid there is one way I can square that particular circle ...

There was a permanent post installed around the corner, but Mrs Fenn had seen nothing before 22h30, in particular no abductor. She certainly thought it was better not to disturb the investigation with a story showing the checkings weren't every half an hour.

Marvelous, you know what Mrs. Fenn was thinking? Must be great having these psychic abilities.

[AnneGuedes]

Does that 'translate to' "I am sorry, I was wrong to suggest that a wife's alibi is not good evidence and I am sorry to have misled the board"?

Is it as valuable as an independent testimony in Common Law ?
Please don't do as if Common Law ruled Portugal.

[debunker]

Does that 'translate to' "I am sorry, I was wrong to suggest that a wife's alibi is not good evidence and I am sorry to have misled the board"?

Is it as valuable as an independent testimony in Common Law ?
Please don't do as if Common Law ruled Portugal.

Does alibi evidence from a spouse have no value in Portugal?

If you suggest that, please provide a cite!

[AnneGuedes]

Mrs Fenn was a very discreet and decent person. She had nothing to say about the events of the 3rd of May before 22h30 when the BBC news finished and she first noticed something was happening, as revealed in her late statement. She refused to speak to journalists, she obviously abhorred gossip, as documented in some TV film.
I find her a model and I didn't like the mocking her in "Madeleine" when she offered her phone. I don't think I'm alone.

[Carana]

There are so many discrepancies between the OC staff statements. It may actually be worth a thread of its own.

It's not their fault, but the statements have times jumping around equating to an hour's gap, for example.

There was a statement by a lady at the Millenium who believed that the McCanns went there every morning for breakfast. Apparently, this wasn't the case.

Descriptions of people who left the table are rather vague - and their precise function (and thus their attention span) isn't always clear from their statements.

All this should have been cleared up in early May 2007.

[ferryman]

Mrs Fenn was a very discreet and decent person.

Strongly agree.

Every reason to suppose she was telling the truth when she said she had no idea the holiday apartment was occupied ...

[ferryman]

There are so many discrepancies between the OC staff statements. It may actually be worth a thread of its own.

It's not their fault, but the statements have times jumping around equating to an hour's gap, for example.

There was a statement by a lady at the Millenium who believed that the McCanns went there every morning for breakfast. Apparently, this wasn't the case.

Descriptions of people who left the table are rather vague - and their precise function (and thus their attention span) isn't always clear from their statements.

All this should have been cleared up in early May 2007.

There was a statement by a lady at the Millenium who believed that the McCanns went there every morning for breakfast. Apparently, this wasn't the case.

Yes, I remember that reference by Kate in her book.

[Redblossom]

Mrs Fenn was a very discreet and decent person.

Strongly agree.

Every reason to suppose she was telling the truth when she said she had no idea the holiday apartment was occupied ...

She makes several references in her statement to the family living below her, so that statement is utter nonsense, obviously something she said misconstrued by the raggly taggly papers.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

[ferryman]

Mrs Fenn was a very discreet and decent person.

Strongly agree.

Every reason to suppose she was telling the truth when she said she had no idea the holiday apartment was occupied ...

She makes several references in her statement to the family living below her, so that statement is utter nonsense.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

Which statement, though?

The verbatim quote she gave to the press?

Or the one in reported speech we, apparently, read from the rendering of her statement that appears on line?

[Mrs. B]

Mrs Fenn was a very discreet and decent person. She had nothing to say about the events of the 3rd of May before 22h30 when the BBC news finished and she first noticed something was happening, as revealed in her late statement. She refused to speak to journalists, she obviously abhorred gossip, as documented in some TV film.
I find her a model and I didn't like the mocking her in "Madeleine" when she offered her phone. I don't think I'm alone.

To say that someone speaks with a "plummy voice" isn't mocking them IMO. All the friends I have that have benefited from a solid public school education do exactly that.