The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[Lace]

How do you know Dianne Webster's timing is accurate?

When, exactly was "Smith Man" seen?  9:50pm? 9:55pm? It's 5 minutes walking from the tapas bar to the smith sighting point and and significantly less jogging/running. Maybe another minute or so to the area at the top of the rocks where the local small boats are kept. More than enough time for a fit man who liked jogging to get back from that area to the Tapas bar and be seen "shortly after 10" if the waiter's timing is accurate even.

This is the problem - none of the timings are accurate, they're all estimates, aren't they?  If there was only a tapas bar cctv or something then the timings would have been verifiable. There wasn't, so the timings all have to be treated as potentially inaccurate.

I'd therefore venture that it'd perhaps be misleading/disingenuous to treat only those that suit a particular version of events (from either side) as being accurate timings, wouldn't you? 

Therefore, it's impossible to say Gerry McCann was - or wasn't - at the tapas bar at 10pm?

I believe the Smith's sighting was at 10/5 past 10.    That is why Andy Redwood is saying that Kate probably missed the abductor by minutes.   Or are they wrong?

[jassi]

The only given is that the Smith's bar bill was timed at 09.55. One can only surmise the rest.

[C.Edwards]

The only given is that the Smith's bar bill was timed at 09.55. One can only surmise the rest.

Have you got a link to that please jassi?

[jassi]

Have you got a link to that please jassi?

Can't locate a specific one, sorry, though I've seen it on line today. Perhaps one of these myths, rather than established fact.

[C.Edwards]

Can't locate a specific one, sorry, though I've seen it on line today. Perhaps one of these myths, rather than established fact.

I thought there was a receipt from Kelly's bar (or similar?) where they'd eaten and that was a 9:45 or thereabouts, but I've not looked it up and I might be wrong there.  I don't know offhand how far apart Kelly's bar and the sighting point are either.

[AnneGuedes]

We have already shown that Gerry was there at 10pm.  If he wasn't then which Gerry was it that Kate cried out to that Madeleine was gone?

Or was it his doppelgänger?

Dr Jerry and Mr ?
Imo he was at the table, but the first time lines say Mrs McCann "realised" at 9:55.

[AnneGuedes]

I thought there was a receipt from Kelly's bar (or similar?) where they'd eaten and that was a 9:45 or thereabouts, but I've not looked it up and I might be wrong there.  I don't know offhand how far apart Kelly's bar and the sighting point are either.

We don't know if one paid for all or even if the same paid twice, 3 bills, 21:46 (8€), 21:49 (8€) and 21:50 (5€).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg

[AnneGuedes]

The only given is that the Smith's bar bill was timed at 09.55. One can only surmise the rest.

I think it's the time they said they started to leave the Kelly's bar.

[blonk]

Please remember that this thread only relates to the proof of Gerry's presence at the Ocean Club at 10pm.

References to the Smiths sighting is a different topic.

  Clarence Mitchell speaks of many witnesses testifying to Gerry McCann being around the Ocean Club during the 9.30pm to 10.30pm period. Not everything that Clarence Mitchell says is false.

I for one accept that Gerry McCann was in or around the Ocean Club from 8.30pm onwards - and probably all the time up to midnight and beyond.

I am not sure we can rely on any of Martin Smith's statements.

Or those of his wife and son.

One thing we need to bear in mind is that Martin Smith was a regular visitor to Praia da Luz and a friend of Robert Murat.

That is no doubt why, when making his first witness statement, he made absolutely sure to emphasise that the person he claimed to have seen was NOT ROBERT MURAT 

[jassi]

  Clarence Mitchell speaks of many witnesses testifying to Gerry Mcann being around the Ocean Club during the 9.30pm to 10.30pm period. Not everything that Clarence Mitchell says is false.

I for one accept that Gerry McCann was in or around the Ocean Club from 8.30pm onwards - and probably all the time up to midnight and beyond.

I am not sure we can rely on any of Martin Smith's statements.

Or those of his wife and son.

One thing we need to bear in mind is that Martin Smith was a regular visitor to Praia da Luz and a friend of Robert Murat.

That is no doubt why, when making his first witness statement, he made absolutely sure to emphasise that the person he claimed to have seen was NOT ROBERT MURAT

Smith was a first-hand witness, so has to be taken seriously,  while Michell was not.

Congratulations, by the way,  for the nice little smear attempt  in the last few lines.

[AnneGuedes]

If the carrier left 5A at 9:57 (getting down the hill) and Peter Smith left the Kelly's Bar with his wife and possibly their son (6) at 9:58 (getting up the hill), I would say they crossed at the point indicated by Peter Smith at 10.

[AnneGuedes]

  Clarence Mitchell speaks of many witnesses testifying to Gerry Mcann being around the Ocean Club during the 9.30pm to 10.30pm period. Not everything that Clarence Mitchell says is false.

I for one accept that Gerry McCann was in or around the Ocean Club from 8.30pm onwards - and probably all the time up to midnight and beyond.

I am not sure we can rely on any of Martin Smith's statements.

Or those of his wife and son.

One thing we need to bear in mind is that Martin Smith was a regular visitor to Praia da Luz and a friend of Robert Murat.

That is no doubt why, when making his first witness statement, he made absolutely sure to emphasise that the person he claimed to have seen was NOT ROBERT MURAT

This is not true at all. Mr Smith had seen Mr Murat once or twice in a bar. You're spreading a myth.

[DCI]

I thought there was a receipt from Kelly's bar (or similar?) where they'd eaten and that was a 9:45 or thereabouts, but I've not looked it up and I might be wrong there.  I don't know offhand how far apart Kelly's bar and the sighting point are either.

Kellys bar bills!

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm#p10p3276

They didn't eat there.

[blonk]

This is not true at all. Mr Smith had seen Mr Murat once or twice in a bar. You're spreading a myth.

OK, for the record, this is what Martin Smith admitted to in his first statement, 23 days after Madeleine was reported missing, and 12 days after Robrt Murat was publicly named as a suspect:

Adds that in May and August of 2006, he saw ROBERT MURAT in Praia da Luz bars. On one of these occasions, the first, he was inebriated and spoke to everyone. He did not wear glasses at that time. He also states that the individual who carried the child was not ROBERT. He would have recognised him immediately.

[Victoria]

OK, for the record, this is what Martin Smith admitted to in his first statement, 23 days after Madeleine was reported missing, and 12 days after Robrt Murat was publicly named as a suspect:

Adds that in May and August of 2006, he saw ROBERT MURAT in Praia da Luz bars. On one of these occasions, the first, he was inebriated and spoke to everyone. He did not wear glasses at that time. He also states that the individual who carried the child was not ROBERT. He would have recognised him immediately.

So not what you initially said then. Jolly good.