Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[Mr Gray]

Something else to bear in mind ... if Eddie alerts but Keela doesn’t (for example next to the bedroom cupboard) then imo we can say with around 95% certainty that the alert is to cadaver odour and not blood. Wasn’t it Redwood who said something along the lines of “MM might possibly not have been alive when she left the apartment”? There’s nothing apart from Eddie’s alert where Keela didn’t to make him assert that , imo.

Could still be blood but blood that didn't dry in situ...check Grimes profile in the files.

The possibility that Maddie may have died in the apartment does not rely on any dog alert.

[pathfinder73]

How can blood not be dried in situ at a crime scene months later?

Of course died in the apartment theory is based on dog alerts. They didn't bring expensive specialised British dogs over for nothing!

[Mr Gray]

How can blood not be dried in situ at a crime scene months later?

Of course died in the apartment theory is based on dog alerts. They didn't bring expensive specialised British dogs over for nothing!

You obviously havent read the section re  "blood dried in situ" in Grime's profile in the files. if you are going to comment on the dogs you should read everything Grime has said. It seems they did bring the dogs over for nothing because nothing of any use was found.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Could still be blood but blood that didn't dry in situ...check Grimes profile in the files.

The possibility that Maddie may have died in the apartment does not rely on any dog alert.

Reasonable first point Dave.... I'll work on that one...

What else would make Redwood reportedly make a point, with clever wording, of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment.... So he's not just saying she's possibly dead (which is a no brainer, imo). Afaik there is no other evidence to suggest MM died in the apartment - only Eddie's alert.

Also despite the smears surrounding Eddie's work in the awful hell hole at Haut de la Garenne in Jersey it's worth remembering some context (link further down):

 In February 2008 a police investigation started on site at the home, this investigation was brought about after allegations of the abuse, and murder of children at the home. Eddie, the dog widely regarded as the best in the world, and who had also, the year previous worked on the Madeleine McCann case, was brought in with his trainer, Martin Grime. Below is a link, filmed by the Homicide Search Advisor of the National Policing Improvement Agency, present with him at the time was former Deputy Chief Police Officer Mr. Lenny Harper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48

As you will hear from the start of the video, Mr Harper was in no way confident as to Eddie's abilities, not least of all because of the bad press Eddie had received at the hands of pro McCann claims after his findings in 2007. That opinion was soon to change, as you can see by the report he made to accompany the video below, take note at some of the amazing tests that Eddie passed with flying colours Mr Harper describes at the start of his report. JAR/6 is a fragment of a child's skull:

Taken from the following link:
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.co.uk/2012_03_01_archive.html

"00.00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes (sic)) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed. Many of these tests were carried out in front of Jersey politicians and media, including Channel Television and Diane Simon of the JEP. Frank Walker and Andrew Lewis were only two of the politicians who witnessed the ability of the dogs in hugely impressive displays. Funny how they all forgot this when they jumped on the bandwagon which sought to ruin Martin Grime’s reputation. One of the most spectacular exercises occurred when one of the Anthropologists brought a vial of sand back that she had removed from the tomb of a mummy in Egypt. We put this vial on a beach, below the sand, and let Eddie off to look for it. The dog amazingly sought it out in a few minutes and gave us the reaction you will see in this video. To get back to the start of the video and my initial doubts, after a few days outside I had at least gained a grudging respect for Martin’s hard work and dedication.

Furthermore I've read reports that the famous piece of "coconut shell" was later found at a University lab to contain collagen (not found in coconut shells!!)... and as the builders from the site suspected they had likely found human bones (though not of HDLG inmates/victims)... So Eddie's alerts were spot on imo....

Here's a Police summary:



And here's a few lab results from many more:

 JAR/33: 3-4; 1940s to 1980’s.
Calcined fragment of bone. human.

JAR/53: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
5 fragments of calcined long bone ?human.

JAR/69: 183. Zone 3 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragments x 3 of possible human cortical bone.

JAR/61: 183 Zone 4 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
23 Fragments of bone:
1 Burnt fragment which closely resembles a human juvenile mastoid process.
2. Burnt fragment of ?human mandible.
3. Fragments of burnt long bone x 3 measuring between 11.3 and 16.3 mm.
4. Fragments of unidentified burnt cortical and trabecular bone x 7.
5. Fragment of slightly burnt long bone measuring 33 mm. The cortex of the
bone resembles human but it is quite thick and the trabeculae can not be seen because it requires cleaning. It appears to have been cut at one end.
6. Fragments of unburnt unidentified long bone. x 3 The appearance and texture of the cortex of the fragments appears more animal than human but it is advised that further examination should be undertaken in order to confirm this.
7. Fragments of unidentified long bone x 7. 5 have been burnt and 2 haven’t. Species
uncertain although two of the burnt fragments could possibly be human

[Mr Gray]

Reasonable first point Dave.... I'll work on that one...

What else would make Redwood reportedly make a point, with clever wording, of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment.... So he's not just saying she's possibly dead (which is a no brainer, imo). Afaik there is no other evidence to suggest MM died in the apartment - only Eddie's alert.

Also despite the smears surrounding Eddie's work in the awful hell hole at Haut de la Garenne in Jersey it's worth remembering some context (link further down):

 In February 2008 a police investigation started on site at the home, this investigation was brought about after allegations of the abuse, and murder of children at the home. Eddie, the dog widely regarded as the best in the world, and who had also, the year previous worked on the Madeleine McCann case, was brought in with his trainer, Martin Grime. Below is a link, filmed by the Homicide Search Advisor of the National Policing Improvement Agency, present with him at the time was former Deputy Chief Police Officer Mr. Lenny Harper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48

As you will hear from the start of the video, Mr Harper was in no way confident as to Eddie's abilities, not least of all because of the bad press Eddie had received at the hands of pro McCann claims after his findings in 2007. That opinion was soon to change, as you can see by the report he made to accompany the video below, take note at some of the amazing tests that Eddie passed with flying colours Mr Harper describes at the start of his report. JAR/6 is a fragment of a child's skull:

Taken from the following link:
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.co.uk/2012_03_01_archive.html

"00.00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes (sic)) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed. Many of these tests were carried out in front of Jersey politicians and media, including Channel Television and Diane Simon of the JEP. Frank Walker and Andrew Lewis were only two of the politicians who witnessed the ability of the dogs in hugely impressive displays. Funny how they all forgot this when they jumped on the bandwagon which sought to ruin Martin Grime’s reputation. One of the most spectacular exercises occurred when one of the Anthropologists brought a vial of sand back that she had removed from the tomb of a mummy in Egypt. We put this vial on a beach, below the sand, and let Eddie off to look for it. The dog amazingly sought it out in a few minutes and gave us the reaction you will see in this video. To get back to the start of the video and my initial doubts, after a few days outside I had at least gained a grudging respect for Martin’s hard work and dedication.

Furthermore I've read reports that the famous piece of "coconut shell" was later found at a University lab to contain collagen (not found in coconut shells!!)... and as the builders from the site suspected they had likely found human bones (though not of HDLG inmates/victims)... So Eddie's alerts were spot on imo....

Here's a Police summary:



And here's a few lab results from many more:

 JAR/33: 3-4; 1940s to 1980’s.
Calcined fragment of bone. human.

JAR/53: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
5 fragments of calcined long bone ?human.

JAR/69: 183. Zone 3 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragments x 3 of possible human cortical bone.

JAR/61: 183 Zone 4 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
23 Fragments of bone:
1 Burnt fragment which closely resembles a human juvenile mastoid process.
2. Burnt fragment of ?human mandible.
3. Fragments of burnt long bone x 3 measuring between 11.3 and 16.3 mm.
4. Fragments of unidentified burnt cortical and trabecular bone x 7.
5. Fragment of slightly burnt long bone measuring 33 mm. The cortex of the
bone resembles human but it is quite thick and the trabeculae can not be seen because it requires cleaning. It appears to have been cut at one end.
6. Fragments of unburnt unidentified long bone. x 3 The appearance and texture of the cortex of the fragments appears more animal than human but it is advised that further examination should be undertaken in order to confirm this.
7. Fragments of unidentified long bone x 7. 5 have been burnt and 2 haven’t. Species
uncertain although two of the burnt fragments could possibly be human

maddie disappeared from the apartment....she may have been abducted....no evidence neede to support that statement

maddie dissapeared...she may hve died in the aprtment...no evidence needed yto support taht statemnet.

The anthroplogist was wrong...what she thought was a skull fragment was a coconut.

Just about everything youve quoted says possibly human.

Lenny Harper ..as I recall...resigned before he was sacked. jersey was a debacle. I don't beleive eddie was ..the best dog in the world...it's all bull

[pathfinder73]

You obviously havent read the section re  "blood dried in situ" in Grime's profile in the files. if you are going to comment on the dogs you should read everything Grime has said. It seems they did bring the dogs over for nothing because nothing of any use was found.

You talk nonsense! The dogs find blood SCENT. Any blood there they would alert to it!

[Mr Gray]

You talk nonsense! The dogs find blood SCENT. Any blood there they would alert to it!

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I'm quoting Grime...perhaps he's talking nonsense

[pathfinder73]

Blood will be in situ at a crime scene months later. Where do you think it's gonna be?

[Brietta]

Reasonable first point Dave.... I'll work on that one...

What else would make Redwood reportedly make a point, with clever wording, of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment.... So he's not just saying she's possibly dead (which is a no brainer, imo). Afaik there is no other evidence to suggest MM died in the apartment - only Eddie's alert.

Also despite the smears surrounding Eddie's work in the awful hell hole at Haut de la Garenne in Jersey it's worth remembering some context (link further down):

 In February 2008 a police investigation started on site at the home, this investigation was brought about after allegations of the abuse, and murder of children at the home. Eddie, the dog widely regarded as the best in the world, and who had also, the year previous worked on the Madeleine McCann case, was brought in with his trainer, Martin Grime. Below is a link, filmed by the Homicide Search Advisor of the National Policing Improvement Agency, present with him at the time was former Deputy Chief Police Officer Mr. Lenny Harper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48

As you will hear from the start of the video, Mr Harper was in no way confident as to Eddie's abilities, not least of all because of the bad press Eddie had received at the hands of pro McCann claims after his findings in 2007. That opinion was soon to change, as you can see by the report he made to accompany the video below, take note at some of the amazing tests that Eddie passed with flying colours Mr Harper describes at the start of his report. JAR/6 is a fragment of a child's skull:

Taken from the following link:
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.co.uk/2012_03_01_archive.html

"00.00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes (sic)) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed. Many of these tests were carried out in front of Jersey politicians and media, including Channel Television and Diane Simon of the JEP. Frank Walker and Andrew Lewis were only two of the politicians who witnessed the ability of the dogs in hugely impressive displays. Funny how they all forgot this when they jumped on the bandwagon which sought to ruin Martin Grime’s reputation. One of the most spectacular exercises occurred when one of the Anthropologists brought a vial of sand back that she had removed from the tomb of a mummy in Egypt. We put this vial on a beach, below the sand, and let Eddie off to look for it. The dog amazingly sought it out in a few minutes and gave us the reaction you will see in this video. To get back to the start of the video and my initial doubts, after a few days outside I had at least gained a grudging respect for Martin’s hard work and dedication.

Furthermore I've read reports that the famous piece of "coconut shell" was later found at a University lab to contain collagen (not found in coconut shells!!)... and as the builders from the site suspected they had likely found human bones (though not of HDLG inmates/victims)... So Eddie's alerts were spot on imo....

Here's a Police summary:



And here's a few lab results from many more:

 JAR/33: 3-4; 1940s to 1980’s.
Calcined fragment of bone. human.

JAR/53: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
5 fragments of calcined long bone ?human.

JAR/69: 183. Zone 3 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragments x 3 of possible human cortical bone.

JAR/61: 183 Zone 4 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
23 Fragments of bone:
1 Burnt fragment which closely resembles a human juvenile mastoid process.
2. Burnt fragment of ?human mandible.
3. Fragments of burnt long bone x 3 measuring between 11.3 and 16.3 mm.
4. Fragments of unidentified burnt cortical and trabecular bone x 7.
5. Fragment of slightly burnt long bone measuring 33 mm. The cortex of the
bone resembles human but it is quite thick and the trabeculae can not be seen because it requires cleaning. It appears to have been cut at one end.
6. Fragments of unburnt unidentified long bone. x 3 The appearance and texture of the cortex of the fragments appears more animal than human but it is advised that further examination should be undertaken in order to confirm this.
7. Fragments of unidentified long bone x 7. 5 have been burnt and 2 haven’t. Species
uncertain although two of the burnt fragments could possibly be human

Remind me ... how many murder victims did they find at Haute de la Garenne ?

[Mr Gray]

Blood will be in situ at a crime scene months later. Where do you think it's gonna be?

You are showing your ignorance

[pathfinder73]

Instead of deflecting just answer the question. Where is blood going to be if not dried in situ months later at a crime scene?

[sadie]

I'm not sure what you mean, Sadie. I'm not a geneticist, sorry.

Thank you Carana

I just have a feeling that something is not right and that a fully decomposed young girls body will be found in a  well in PT surrounded by DNA that is manufactured to match Madeleines.

If I am right in who I suspect, both individual and organisations, they are from an ancient dynasty of bloodbrothers.  They stand to lose generations of mega wealth producing moneys from Trafficking, blackmail possibly, illicit sex, drug growing, manufacturing and distribution.  They want Madeleine to be believed dead.

It just seems to me that "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark" re the original PJ and re the German accusations against Christian Bruckner, evil man tho he is.

IMO, the fact that SY do not seem to be endorsing German findings puts a big question mark in my mind.


Why are SY not endorsing the findings ?   Why ?

[pathfinder73]

"Our job as detectives is to follow the evidence, maintain an open mind and establish what happened on that day in May 2007."

http://news.met.police.uk/news/operation-grange-update-and-appeal-403826

[Miss Taken Identity]

Thank you Carana

I just have a feeling that something is not right and that a fully decomposed young girls body will be found in a  well in PT surrounded by DNA that is manufactured to match Madeleines.

If I am right in who I suspect, both individual and organisations, they are from an ancient dynasty of bloodbrothers.  They stand to lose generations of mega wealth producing moneys from Trafficking, blackmail possibly, illicit sex, drug growing, manufacturing and distribution.  They want Madeleine to be believed dead.

It just seems to me that "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark" re the original PJ and re the German accusations against Christian Bruckner, evil man tho he is.

IMO, the fact that SY do not seem to be endorsing German findings puts a big question mark in my mind.


Why are SY not endorsing the findings ?   Why ?

I can't believe they are not looking into the bloodbrothers in Denmark. Nasty bunch I'm sure!

The dog alerted to blood- McCanns say MBM may have had a nose bleed or something like that!

Blood not drying in situ?  someone cuts oneself in the hall> runs to the Kitchen drops some blood it dries in. [?]

[Robittybob1]

Reasonable first point Dave.... I'll work on that one...

What else would make Redwood reportedly make a point, with clever wording, of saying that she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment.... So he's not just saying she's possibly dead (which is a no brainer, imo). Afaik there is no other evidence to suggest MM died in the apartment - only Eddie's alert.

... snip ...

I would say Redwood would have to keep his options open, either dead or alive, for if he just gave "alive" people would be asking "how do you know that?".  Under the protocols of "Crimestoppers", the information given has to remain confidential so even if he knows he can't let on, but they do, by making silly comments like she possibly may not have been alive before she left the apartment.