Author Topic: Order of killings  (Read 37900 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Inspector Gadget

Order of killings
« on: February 12, 2020, 08:44:34 PM »
Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.

Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :

1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?

2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.

Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 10:18:38 AM »
I too have wondered about how Nevill was overpowered by either of his children.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 11:19:19 AM »
I too have wondered about how Nevill was overpowered by either of his children.

NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs: two to the face, one to the shoulder and the other to the chest.
 
The pathologist said the gws's to the face would have killed him had other gunshot wounds sustained downstairs not supervened. The facial wounds caused severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally.  They were both fired within inches of his face with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s.  The wound to his shoulder resulted in total incapacitation of his left arm.  The wound to the elbow was a graze only wound.

The bullets were hollow nosed as opposed to round nosed meaning more of the kinetic energy is transferred into the target.  The bullet opens up like a petal and zips around the body tearing through tissue and muscle.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 11:23:09 AM »
The following report by the pathologist details NB's gsw's and other injuries sustained eg blows from a blunt instrument, most probably the rifle.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.msg2230#msg2230
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 11:26:08 AM »
The following vid explains how hollow nosed bullets work:

https://youtu.be/xb9nXeXqEho
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 11:34:36 AM »
And just to clarify we know NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs and four downstairs due to the spent casings.  Any of the 4 sustained downstairs would have immobilised him. Therefore the four upstairs must have preceded the four downstairs.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 11:37:17 AM »
Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.

Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :

1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?

2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.

Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.

Hi and welcome to the forum Inspector Gadget. I look forward to reading your contribution.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 11:48:13 AM »
NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds upstairs: two to the face, one to the shoulder and the other to the chest.
 
The pathologist said the gws's to the face would have killed him had other gunshot wounds sustained downstairs not supervened. The facial wounds caused severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally.  They were both fired within inches of his face with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s.  The wound to his shoulder resulted in total incapacitation of his left arm.  The wound to the elbow was a graze only wound.

The bullets were hollow nosed as opposed to round nosed meaning more of the kinetic energy is transferred into the target.  The bullet opens up like a petal and zips around the body tearing through tissue and muscle.

How were they able to work out which injuries were sustained where?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline steve_trousers

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 12:22:31 PM »
Good Evening,
Firstly, I want to say thank you for such an amazing forum and to all the members for their incredible contribution. I have been a guest (or a lurker) since 2013 and learnt so much about the case from this place. Believe there were members called John, myster and scipio who were just incredible and provided so much factual evidence that made me realise how guilty Jeremy Bamber is.

Anyway back to WHF. Even though Bamber is 100% guilty there are two things that I can’t get my head around and wondered if any of you could help shed some light based on your opinion :

1.. What order, including chronological order of bullets, do you think the murders/ shootings took place?[/b] 25 bullets would have meant two seperate reloads (unless killer was wearing an ammo belt) and I don’t think the numbers add up. I am sure the killer fired single shots at some victims then come back later to add more after everyone was dead to make it look like a frenzy. Thoughts?

2. Why was the idea of a hitman never properly explored? Julie’s statement was so factually detailed and correct that surely this should have been investigated further. Wasn’t there a chance that he just lied about Mcdonald name but the idea of a hitman was a plausible one. Another person involved perhaps? For me 25 shots fired, all directly hit plus the fact that the killer overpowered a big Nevill points to a skilled assassin which I’m not sure Jeremy was. It would also make the phone call more plausible whereby Jeremy would receive a call from Hitman they end call then before he leaves he removes it from hook. This would then explain the cut off Jeremy experiences and allowed him to call out to police and Julie rather than be faced with an open line as his lie exposed him too.

Any thoughts/ views would be welcome.

Good day Inspector Gadget

1) We can build a picture of the scene from the shell casings and pathologists report. But as you can imagine, the actual chronological sequence of shootings remains a subject of heated debate. Were the twins shot first? If not, neither of them appeared to stir during the commotion as they were found in their beds, one of them still sucking his thumb. Or did Jeremy save them till last as a sick bargaining chip to keep Sheila compliant?
Certainly it did not go wholly according to plan and he could not finish either June or Nevill before requiring to reload. An injured Nevill then either barged or stole past him trying to get downstairs.
There is a drawing somewhere on these pages, detailing where the spent cartridges were found.
2) Good question, I don't think Jeremy seriously considered hiring a hitman for that night's work, he told Julie about matty mcdonald in an effort to put some distance between the man she loved and the monster who killed 5 members of his family.
Where would this farmer have found such a hitman, a stranger willing to kill 5 people incl 2 kids whilst using cunning, to make it appear as a murder-suicide? It would have been a technical hit that required great care. And at what price?  Jeremy wasn't going to be cash rich until after the killings. More than one person would surely have known about it as it required making enquiries to find this hitman prepared for that particular gruesome nights work. And if this individual were to slip up and get caught? Inevitable JB could then expect to be handed over.
No, It was important that Jeremy himself staged the scene of deranged murder suicide, there was too much at stake to allow a stranger to do it. Once McDonald provided his alibi, no evidence of a hitman has ever come to light in the 35 years since.



« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 12:43:22 PM by steve_trousers »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 12:38:01 PM »
How were they able to work out which injuries were sustained where?

See post #5. Shell casings and pathological evidence. When the rifle is discharged the bullet exits via the barrel and the spent casing, which contained the propellant, is automatically ejected from a port located on the right hand side. 

The twins were shot in their beds and it is thought they were asleep.

June and SC sustained all gunshot wounds in the main bedroom evidenced by blood stains to carpet and lack of on the landing, along with the casings.

NB sustained 4 gunshot wounds to the head any of which would have immobilised him so given he was found downstairs in the kitchen it has been accepted he sustained these gsw's in the kitchen where he was found.  3 casings were found in the kitchen which was untidy and cluttered so the missing casing might well have been overlooked.  Also police officers tidied up and did not take any sweeping from the floor. Casings are about 0.5cm dia and 1cm length.

A casing was found on the landing which some have suggested was transferred there inadvertently under an officer's boot. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Inspector Gadget

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2020, 12:43:51 PM »
Thank you for this!

We know from forensics that Sheila did NOT go downstairs, didn’t reload, didn’t have any damage to hands or feet, neither was she involved in a struggle so it 100% was not her. That’s an interesting point about the twins last as bargaining. Sheila clearly submitted and put up no resistance which means either she was heavily sedated or she was scared about something and done exactly what JB said.

I also don’t believe JB went downstairs to reload. It was too risky and he wasn’t stupid enough to think one magazine of 10 bullets would take out 5 people. I think it’s more likely that he had two more fully loaded magazines on him by a belt.

It’s one of the most fascinating parts of this case. Knowing that he lied and is guilty but trying to piece it all together with so many unknowns.

The clothing he wore and the burn marks on NB are of great mystery to me. I wonder what he wore that night so that he didn’t leave much behind and I believe he fired more shots after people were already dead to make it look chaotic. I.e twins, June and Nb all received secondary shots after the primary shots mortally wounded them.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 12:47:40 PM by Inspector Gadget »

Offline steve_trousers

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2020, 12:53:24 PM »
Regarding the burn marks on Nevill, no matching burns/holes were found in his pyjamas, and it is likely to forever remain a mystery. Likely some manner of farming accident.

I personally don't think that the Kids needed to still be alive in order for Sheila to be compliant. Being terrified by an armed intruder all Bamber needed to do was scream at her "DOWN, DOWN, F****** DOWN NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES" and most people would do as they are instructed

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2020, 01:02:30 PM »
Thank you for this!

We know from forensics that Sheila did NOT go downstairs, didn’t reload, didn’t have any damage to hands or feet, neither was she involved in a struggle so it 100% was not her. That’s an interesting point about the twins last as bargaining. Sheila clearly submitted and put up no resistance which means either she was heavily sedated or she was scared about something and done exactly what JB said.

I also don’t believe JB went downstairs to reload. It was too risky and he wasn’t stupid enough to think one magazine of 10 bullets would take out 5 people. I think it’s more likely that he had two more fully loaded magazines on him by a belt.

It’s one of the most fascinating parts of this case. Knowing that he lied and is guilty but trying to piece it all together with so many unknowns.

The clothing he wore and the burn marks on NB are of great mystery to me. I wonder what he wore that night so that he didn’t leave much behind and I believe he fired more shots after people were already dead to make it look chaotic. I.e twins, June and Nb all received secondary shots after the primary shots mortally wounded them.
I didn't mention anything about the order of succession in terms of who was shot first.

The above are your views not mine and do not fit with the scientific evidence.

10 bullets would most definitely kill all 5 if the shooter was able to inflict wounds to the head or major organs.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2020, 01:04:52 PM »
Regarding the burn marks on Nevill, no matching burns/holes were found in his pyjamas, and it is likely to forever remain a mystery. Likely some manner of farming accident.

I personally don't think that the Kids needed to still be alive in order for Sheila to be compliant. Being terrified by an armed intruder all Bamber needed to do was scream at her "DOWN, DOWN, F****** DOWN NOW CLOSE YOUR EYES" and most people would do as they are instructed

They might if they didn't recognise the voice.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Inspector Gadget

Re: Order of killings
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2020, 01:07:55 PM »
I didn’t say you did. I was replying Steve but it didn’t include the quote.

I prefer to study the facts and the evidence which forensically says she didn’t have enough trace of copper to have reloaded. No damage to hands or nails that would indicate a fight. Barely any blood on hands. Barely any prints on gun. Nothing on feet to suggest being anywhere in kitchen. No damage to face to indicate being in a fight. 🤷🏻‍♂️