Author Topic: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence  (Read 135519 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2020, 11:35:46 AM »
They had the original exhibits, a lot more than something dreamed up 35 years later from individuals who are far from impartial.

And had those exhibits been retained they could now be retested using 21st century forensic science which in all probability wouls seal JB's fate or exonerate him.

The exhibits were destroyed against all protocols.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2020, 06:18:48 PM »
And had those exhibits been retained they could now be retested using 21st century forensic science which in all probability wouls seal JB's fate or exonerate him.

The exhibits were destroyed against all protocols.

I do think the police should have been hauled over the coals for this.

Not only might advances in science settled the case once and for all, the destruction of the exhibits has only fueled the conspiracy fantasies that Bamber relies on.

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2020, 06:47:38 PM »

They did test Sheila’s hands, body and nightdress for GSR, CS.

And tests proved there wasn’t any on her that should have been had she fired the gun.

AFAIK the test conducted for her having fired the gun was for wax particles which came up negative against the control, as did the test for lead and other metals that proved she hadn't loaded 18 rounds either - there was enough evidence to prove that she didn't fire the gun.

A test for GSR would have been pretty useless in determining anything. 

 https://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/understanding-gunshot-residue.html

The limitations of GSR analysis have ramifications for individuals associated with a crime scene, specifically victims. Generally, kits should not be collected from victims, whether the incident is a homicide, assault, or suicide. Based on the experience of the forensic community, between 10-20% of suicide GSR kits test negative for GSR. Additionally, our experience demonstrates that homicide or assault victims shot by someone else can test positive for GSR. One test, for example, demonstrated that GSR can travel in the direction of the bullet as far as 18 feet. Finding GSR on a shooting victim's hands does not differentiate between a self-inflicted wound or a homicide. Likewise, a negative GSR result from a suspected suicide does not mean that someone else fired the weapon.

Because GSR kits cannot demonstrate whether a shooting was self-inflicted or not, the MSHP lab will no longer routinely analyze kits taken from shooting victims after September 1, 2008.

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2020, 06:50:21 PM »
And had those exhibits been retained they could now be retested using 21st century forensic science which in all probability wouls seal JB's fate or exonerate him.

The exhibits were destroyed against all protocols.

Then again, they might have incriminated him further.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2020, 09:58:24 AM »
Then again, they might have incriminated him further.

I said the destroyed exhibits had the potential to seal his fate.

How can he be incriminated further when he was found guilty and serving a whole life tarrif?

In the interests of justice the trial exhibits should not have been destroyed against all protocols.

I wonder why he doesn't beat the drum about this in the way he does about claims of non-disclosed docs  *%87
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2020, 10:08:25 AM »
AFAIK the test conducted for her having fired the gun was for wax particles which came up negative against the control, as did the test for lead and other metals that proved she hadn't loaded 18 rounds either - there was enough evidence to prove that she didn't fire the gun.

A test for GSR would have been pretty useless in determining anything. 

 https://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/understanding-gunshot-residue.html

The limitations of GSR analysis have ramifications for individuals associated with a crime scene, specifically victims. Generally, kits should not be collected from victims, whether the incident is a homicide, assault, or suicide. Based on the experience of the forensic community, between 10-20% of suicide GSR kits test negative for GSR. Additionally, our experience demonstrates that homicide or assault victims shot by someone else can test positive for GSR. One test, for example, demonstrated that GSR can travel in the direction of the bullet as far as 18 feet. Finding GSR on a shooting victim's hands does not differentiate between a self-inflicted wound or a homicide. Likewise, a negative GSR result from a suspected suicide does not mean that someone else fired the weapon.

Because GSR kits cannot demonstrate whether a shooting was self-inflicted or not, the MSHP lab will no longer routinely analyze kits taken from shooting victims after September 1, 2008.


SC's hands were swabbed for the presence of GSR using a kit designed for this very purpose but apparently EP sent to the lab with an unrelated firearm and on this basis the swabs were rejected on grounds of potential contamination.  But even if this hadn't happened the test was flawed for many reasons including what you've stated above.

There are no other reliable tests used to determine whether someone has recently discharged a firearm.  Tests for bullet lubricant, which you refer to above as wax, and gun oil are not valid scientific tests.  If others disagree please identify one of the many UK forensic service providers who offer such tests. 

The above will form additional points for the 3rd appeal.

Please note I said additional and not the main contenders.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2020, 10:16:20 AM »
I said the destroyed exhibits had the potential to seal his fate.

How can he be incriminated further when he was found guilty and serving a whole life tarrif?

In the interests of justice the trial exhibits should not have been destroyed against all protocols.

I wonder why he doesn't beat the drum about this in the way he does about claims of non-disclosed docs  *%87

It's mentioned pretty often, with the implication always being it was done to hamper JB. The odd thing is, with such nefarious forces at work, Jb believes that exculpatory evidence still exists and hasn't been shredded.

Offline APRIL

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2020, 10:31:56 AM »
It's mentioned pretty often, with the implication always being it was done to hamper JB. The odd thing is, with such nefarious forces at work, Jb believes that exculpatory evidence still exists and hasn't been shredded.


I've always wondered why, when, allegedly, there is a surfeit of evidence 'proving' Jeremy's innocence, why was it not destroyed along with all the other paperwork of no further use. I mean, who in their right minds is going to keep hold of the evidence of their misdeeds? Even Jeremy wasn't that stupid.

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2020, 10:37:49 AM »
SC's hands were swabbed for the presence of GSR using a kit designed for this very purpose but apparently EP sent to the lab with an unrelated firearm and on this basis the swabs were rejected on grounds of potential contamination.  But even if this hadn't happened the test was flawed for many reasons including what you've stated above.

There are no other reliable tests used to determine whether someone has recently discharged a firearm.  Tests for bullet lubricant, which you refer to above as wax, and gun oil are not valid scientific tests.  If others disagree please identify one of the many UK forensic service providers who offer such tests. 

The above will form additional points for the 3rd appeal.

Please note I said additional and not the main contenders.

The forensic scientists knew what they were doing Holly.

If you read the article I linked above, a test for GSR is only useful in determining if someone has fired a gun if they are not at the scene as basically GSR goes everywhere. On the shooter, on the victim, on surfaces and it can be easily transferred. Testing JB might have been useful, but not conclusive. It's actually a very limited piece of science. 

Yes, the lab first rejected the swabs on the grounds of possible contamination which of course, JB tried to turn into yet another conspiracy. The CoA had to point out that any contamination would have only worked in his favour. The results of these tests showed only low levels of lead which were not consistent with loading the gun. 

From the Appeal, point 177:

At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

Point 187:

"The hands – were swabbed – swabs rejected by the laboratory. Later raised by D/Superintendent Ainsley in conference at the laboratory when the laboratory again stated that it was too costly to do and that it would be expected to show a positive result as the body of Sheila was in a room contaminated by gunfire. D/Superintendent Ainsley made issue that the swabs should be examined and if not done he wished a statement to explain why it had not been done. As a result they were examined and found to be virtually negative of residue, i.e. lead, oil and propellant."

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2020, 10:10:01 PM »
The forensic scientists knew what they were doing Holly.

If you read the article I linked above, a test for GSR is only useful in determining if someone has fired a gun if they are not at the scene as basically GSR goes everywhere. On the shooter, on the victim, on surfaces and it can be easily transferred. Testing JB might have been useful, but not conclusive. It's actually a very limited piece of science. 

Yes, the lab first rejected the swabs on the grounds of possible contamination which of course, JB tried to turn into yet another conspiracy. The CoA had to point out that any contamination would have only worked in his favour. The results of these tests showed only low levels of lead which were not consistent with loading the gun. 

From the Appeal, point 177:

At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

Point 187:

"The hands – were swabbed – swabs rejected by the laboratory. Later raised by D/Superintendent Ainsley in conference at the laboratory when the laboratory again stated that it was too costly to do and that it would be expected to show a positive result as the body of Sheila was in a room contaminated by gunfire. D/Superintendent Ainsley made issue that the swabs should be examined and if not done he wished a statement to explain why it had not been done. As a result they were examined and found to be virtually negative of residue, i.e. lead, oil and propellant."


Excellent point, CS

Who can explain all that away?
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2020, 05:53:45 PM »

They did test Sheila’s hands, body and nightdress for GSR, CS.

And tests proved there wasn’t any on her that should have been had she fired the gun.

SC's hands were swabbed at pm and sent to FSS for gsr analysis but the swabs were rejected on the basis they were sent in with an unrelated firearm with possible contamination issues.

Malcom Fletcher claimed at trial he would have expected to find bullet lubricant and gun oil on SC's nightdress but he was unable to find any.  I've no idea why he would expect to find this type of debris which doesn't emit during the normal course of discharging firearms.

The only established and reliable test used to determine whether someone has recently discharged a firearm is a test for GSR and this wasn't used in this case.

Brian Elliot used the swabs to test for the presence of lead but this isn't an established test used to determine whether or not someone has recently discharged a firearm.

If anyone disagrees please identify one of the independent forensic service providers offering such tests:

https://www.justicedirectory.co.uk/directory/forensic-services/

I'm reminded of Parliaments findings relating to quality issues during the 80's at FSS:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

The above will all be debunked at the the third historic and successful appeal.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2020, 06:13:15 PM »
SC's hands were swabbed at pm and sent to FSS for gsr analysis but the swabs were rejected on the basis they were sent in with an unrelated firearm with possible contamination issues.

Malcom Fletcher claimed at trial he would have expected to find bullet lubricant and gun oil on SC's nightdress but he was unable to find any.  I've no idea why he would expect to find this type of debris which doesn't emit during the normal course of discharging firearms.

The only established and reliable test used to determine whether someone has recently discharged a firearm is a test for GSR and this wasn't used in this case.

Brian Elliot used the swabs to test for the presence of lead but this isn't an established test used to determine whether or not someone has recently discharged a firearm.

If anyone disagrees please identify one of the independent forensic service providers offering such tests:

https://www.justicedirectory.co.uk/directory/forensic-services/

I'm reminded of Parliaments findings relating to quality issues during the 80's at FSS:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

The above will all be debunked at the the third historic and successful appeal.
The best you’re going to be able to prove is that there was zero evidence Sheila fired the gun, so I’m not sure what you are hoping to achieve?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2020, 06:23:28 PM »
The best you’re going to be able to prove is that there was zero evidence Sheila fired the gun, so I’m not sure what you are hoping to achieve?

Not at all. 

The prosecution used a lack of lead on SC's hands and lack of debris on her nightdress as evidence she hadn't fired the rifle.  When in actual fact a qualified forensic scientist would not expect to find either.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2020, 06:27:35 PM »
Not at all. 

The prosecution used a lack of lead on SC's hands and lack of debris on her nightdress as evidence she hadn't fired the rifle.  When in actual fact a qualified forensic scientist would not expect to find either.
Are you saying that your hands and clothes do not get covered in lead from gunshot residue when you fire a gun?  Cite please.  In any case my point stands.  There was no evidence she fired a gun.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2020, 07:02:09 PM »

I've always wondered why, when, allegedly, there is a surfeit of evidence 'proving' Jeremy's innocence, why was it not destroyed along with all the other paperwork of no further use. I mean, who in their right minds is going to keep hold of the evidence of their misdeeds? Even Jeremy wasn't that stupid.

It's all in a file entitled "How we stitched Bamber up - Please do not read"  @)(++(* @)(++(*