Could Madeleine have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00?

[peter claridge]

Anne and Peter, I would tend to agree with those opinions. They, unfortunately, make sense.

I agree with the unfortunately and would like very much to read different points of view.
Yesterday I wrote I had been touched by Jane Tanner sobbing. Viewing that so-called reconstruction part, I was touched again. I'd like to know if I'm alone or not.

She agreed to go back for the Mccann reconstruction documentary. She obviously did not know what was awaiting her.

I've a feeling JT transferred in time and space her sighting. She did it for honest reasons, certainly not to cover up. She knew cynical comments made on her memory improving with time. She must have found it unjust and yet she might have had a terrible doubt.

Jane Tanner didn't see anything, she didn't leave the table until the alarm was raised.  Total fabrication as are Mathews checks as are for that matter Gerry's, Russell's and Kate's.  The timelines that they produced are a direct result of the Smith sighting.

I don't agree at all and I wonder what makes you so affirmative, because those TP7 had no reason whatsoever to cover up any crime. They told some untruths, very likely, but for good reasons or what they honestly but rapidly thought were good reasons : trying to orientate the PJ towards an abduction they believe had occurred (because of the shutters/window), trying to avoid accusations of neglect (saving their skin as well).
Really, had I been one of the TP in a foreign totally ignored country (they were in a resort, close to 100% British), I would have reacted their way.

You would have lied about a sighting of an abductor, lied about carrying out checks on other peoples children.  You'd only have done this if there was something more sinister to cover up.  The group minus Dianne Webster were fully aware of the circumstances surrounding that evening before leaving for the tapas bar.

I'm interested in your theory peter ...  any chance you could give us a brief summing up of what you think might,  theoretically,  have happened  ?

The best place to start is with the Smith sighting and work backwards from there.  Unfortunately this does point to Madeleine being dead before that evenings meal commenced.  The loose cannon of the group is Dianne Webster and her statements need to be read side by side with the others of the group.
In brief it was Gerry who was seen by the Smith family this forced an early raising of the alarm, in effect Gerry became the abductor.  They were now forced into producing a timeline that had to provide evidence not only of checking but an oppurtunity for abduction and most important of all an alibi for Gerry.  It is this alibi provided by  Jane Tanner's sighting making use of the genuine meeting between Gerry and Jes Wilkin's plus the claim of the open bedroom shutters/window that causes their timeline to descend into something of a farce.  We get unlocked patio doors to allow a 9.30 just listening check from inside the McCann's apartment by Mathew Oldfield designed specifically to not discover the open window and a missing Madeliene that Tanner's sighting would now imply (I would also point out that Mathew's claim that he could see the twins was that they weren't there and had to be rapidly returned after the alarm),  Russell O'Briens claim that his daughter was ill was merely to cover for his extended absence from the table.  The early checks by Gerry and Mathew are also there to explain their absence from the table (see Dianne Webster).
When time allows I'll do a complete breakdown of the timelines provided by the group linked to their statements which clearly show how the story evolves and the complicity of all minus Dianne Webster (she is later on brought up to speed for the rogatory interviews).

[icabodcrane]

Anne and Peter, I would tend to agree with those opinions. They, unfortunately, make sense.

I agree with the unfortunately and would like very much to read different points of view.
Yesterday I wrote I had been touched by Jane Tanner sobbing. Viewing that so-called reconstruction part, I was touched again. I'd like to know if I'm alone or not.

She agreed to go back for the Mccann reconstruction documentary. She obviously did not know what was awaiting her.

I've a feeling JT transferred in time and space her sighting. She did it for honest reasons, certainly not to cover up. She knew cynical comments made on her memory improving with time. She must have found it unjust and yet she might have had a terrible doubt.

Jane Tanner didn't see anything, she didn't leave the table until the alarm was raised.  Total fabrication as are Mathews checks as are for that matter Gerry's, Russell's and Kate's.  The timelines that they produced are a direct result of the Smith sighting.

I don't agree at all and I wonder what makes you so affirmative, because those TP7 had no reason whatsoever to cover up any crime. They told some untruths, very likely, but for good reasons or what they honestly but rapidly thought were good reasons : trying to orientate the PJ towards an abduction they believe had occurred (because of the shutters/window), trying to avoid accusations of neglect (saving their skin as well).
Really, had I been one of the TP in a foreign totally ignored country (they were in a resort, close to 100% British), I would have reacted their way.

You would have lied about a sighting of an abductor, lied about carrying out checks on other peoples children.  You'd only have done this if there was something more sinister to cover up.  The group minus Dianne Webster were fully aware of the circumstances surrounding that evening before leaving for the tapas bar.

I'm interested in your theory peter ...  any chance you could give us a brief summing up of what you think might,  theoretically,  have happened  ?

The best place to start is with the Smith sighting and work backwards from there.  Unfortunately this does point to Madeleine being dead before that evenings meal commenced.  The loose cannon of the group is Dianne Webster and her statements need to be read side by side with the others of the group.
In brief it was Gerry who was seen by the Smith family this forced an early raising of the alarm, in effect Gerry became the abductor.  They were now forced into producing a timeline that had to provide evidence not only of checking but an oppurtunity for abduction and most important of all an alibi for Gerry.  It is this alibi provided by  Jane Tanner's sighting making use of the genuine meeting between Gerry and Jes Wilkin's plus the claim of the open bedroom shutters/window that causes their timeline to descend into something of a farce.  We get unlocked patio doors to allow a 9.30 just listening check from inside the McCann's apartment by Mathew Oldfield designed specifically to not discover the open window and a missing Madeliene that Tanner's sighting would now imply (I would also point out that Mathew's claim that he could see the twins was that they weren't there and had to be rapidly returned after the alarm),  Russell O'Briens claim that his daughter was ill was merely to cover for his extended absence from the table.  The early checks by Gerry and Mathew are also there to explain their absence from the table (see Dianne Webster).
When time allows I'll do a complete breakdown of the timelines provided by the group linked to their statements which clearly show how the story evolves and the complicity of all minus Dianne Webster (she is later on brought up to speed for the rogatory interviews).

Thanks Peter  (  please come back with linked timeline/witness statement analysis when you have the time  )

I have wondered if, perhaps,  whatever happened,  happened some time before the  'window of opportunity'  allowed by the Tapas group

[sadie]

Yeah I would really like to hear Peters theory

As I said before:


sadie

Yep, I would love to hear Peters theory.

He knows that Jane Tanner didn't leave the table.

He knows that Matthew, Gerry, Kate and Russell fabricated their checks on the children

I wonder what else he knows?

Peter

Jane Tanner didn't see anything, she didn't leave the table until the alarm was raised.  Total fabrication as are Mathews checks as are for that matter Gerry's, Russell's and Kate's.  The timelines that they produced are a direct result of the Smith sighting.

sadie

Jeez yuo know such a lot.  Were you there Peter? 

Psst .... were you the watcher/getaway driver ?

You can tell me; I wont tell anyone     

Yep, I would really like to hear Peters theory with timelines and everything as Isabod suggested.  Looking forward to your analysis.

[sadie]

Come on Peter.  How about it?

Peter

Jane Tanner didn't see anything, she didn't leave the table until the alarm was raised.  Total fabrication as are Mathews checks as are for that matter Gerry's, Russell's and Kate's.  The timelines that they produced are a direct result of the Smith sighting.

Icabod asked you to give your timeline and your thoughts.  I too would be very interested to hear them.  You seem to know so much

What is your theory as Jane Tanner didn't even leave the table?  And every claim that Gerry, Russell, Matt, kate made didn't happen.  Did they all lie?

Would be fascinating to hear all about what really did happen

Come on Peter, be a sport

[icabodcrane]

Getting back to the original question asked by the OP

...  can anyone come up with a single reason as to why Madeleine could  not  have gone missing between 9.30pm and 10pm  ? 

I can't think of one

There is no reason,  I can see,  to dismiss the fact that the child could have disappeared at any time between  9.05pm  (  when Gerry says he last saw her )  and 10pm  ( when Kate says she found her missing ) 

[sadie]

There are least two reasons

1)  Jane Tanner witnessed bundleman carrying ?Madeleine

2) Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard a man whispering /murmuring "Madeleine, Madeleine".  She was in the vicinity of where bundleman walked to, and she was there at the correct sort of time

So two witnesses.  These should not have been ignored.



Jane Tanner would have been treated as a GOLDEN WITNESS by almost any police Force in the World  But Amaral rubbished ALL the British witnesses.  Had he taken her sighting on board along with Mrs Carpenters audio witnessing, then there would have been a very different result.

 Madeleine would probably have been home within hours.

[gavdalf]

didn't JT description of bundleman eventually morph into Murat? I seem to recall from somewhere and was he then made an aquido?

[icabodcrane]

There are least two reasons

1)  Jane Tanner witnessed bundleman carrying ?Madeleine

2) Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard a man whispering /murmuring "Madeleine, Madeleine".  She was in the vicinity of where bundleman walked to, and she was there at the correct sort of time

So two witnesses.  These should not have been ignored.



Jane Tanner would have been treated as a GOLDEN WITNESS by almost any police Force in the World  But Amaral rubbished ALL the British witnesses.  Had he taken her sighting on board along with Mrs Carpenters audio witnessing, then there would have been a very different result.

 Madeleine would probably have been home within hours.

About the Caroline Carpenter  'audio evidence'

I've searched and searched the files and I cannot find her witness statement  (  I found her husband's,  but that is just hearsay ) 

Where and when did she give this evidence about hearing the whispered  'Madeleine'  ?

What time was it when she heard the whisper ?

Where was she when she heard it  ? 

[Redblossom]

Sadie, you said, in response to the question, could Madeleine have been taken between 9.30 and 10pm :

Quote

There are least two reasons

1)  Jane Tanner witnessed bundleman carrying ?Madeleine

2) Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard a man whispering /murmuring "Madeleine, Madeleine".  She was in the vicinity of where bundleman walked to, and she was there at the correct sort of time

So two witnesses.  These should not have been ignored.

Jane Tanner would have been treated as a GOLDEN WITNESS by almost any police Force in the World  But Amaral rubbished ALL the British witnesses.  Had he taken her sighting on board along with Mrs Carpenters audio witnessing, then there would have been a very different result. 

Madeleine would probably have been home within hours.

Unquote

1) Jane Tanner did not see bundleman after 9.30 though did she? She saw him around 9.15 or so whilst seeing Gerry Mccann and Mr Wilkins, having their chat. By 9.30 one was back in the restaraunt and the other was at home.

2) Do you know that Mr or Mrs Carpenter was interviewed by the PJ immediately that night, so that if Mr Amaral had listened to them, Madeleine would have been home within hours?

3) How do you know that Mrs Carpenter, if indeed she did hear this, must have been hearing an abductor, and not one or other person who was going to check up on her? The Carpenters left the restaraunt between 9.15 and 9.30.... Perhaps they heard either Gerry or Matt Oldfield?

[sadie]

Bl^dy L, I left the first line out.

Old age.

It should have started with the words 

"The reason why Madeleine could NOT have been abducted between 9.30 and 10.00 are ":

There are least two reasons

1)  Jane Tanner witnessed bundleman carrying ?Madeleine

2) Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard a man whispering /murmuring "Madeleine, Madeleine".  She was in the vicinity of where bundleman walked to, and she was there at the correct sort of time

So two witnesses.  These should not have been ignored.

Jane Tanner would have been treated as a GOLDEN WITNESS by almost any police Force in the World  But Amaral rubbished ALL the British witnesses.  Had he taken her sighting on board along with Mrs Carpenters audio witnessing, then there would have been a very different result.

Madeleine would probably have been home within hours.

Thanks for alerting me

[sadie]

1) Jane Tanner did not see bundleman after 9.30 though did she? She saw him around 9.15 or so whilst seeing Gerry Mccann and Mr Wilkins, having their chat. By 9.30 one was back in the restaraunt and the other was at home.

She saw bundleman at about 9.20pm IIRC

2) Do you know that Mr or Mrs Carpenter was interviewed by the PJ immediately that night, so that if Mr Amaral had listened to them, Madeleine would have been home within hours?

Amaral didn't bother to even see them or visit Apartment 5A until after they left.  Without looking their statement up, I cannot remember when the PJ interviewed them, but I doubt it was that night.  They didn't arrive on the scene for hours and no-one would have known at that stage that The Carpenters had heard anything

3) How do you know that Mrs Carpenter, if indeed she did hear this, must have been hearing an abductor, and not one or other person who was going to check up on her? The Carpenters left the restaraunt between 9.15 and 9.30.... Perhaps they heard either Gerry or Matt Oldfield?

It was en route and towards their apartment, Redblossom.  Surely you are not still pounding at the fact that Gerry or Matt had killed Madeleine?  How could they have disposed of the body, and appeareed normal at the table.  Just think about it

I dont intend wading thru all the processos to prove you wrong, but I feel pretty confident That their time at the table was well accounted for in the various staff and guests statements.

Are you suggesting that after Gerrys chat with Jez, he doubled back and picked up Madeleine to dump her body?  Come on.  Next you will be wittering on that they cut her body up into tiny bits and stored it iisn the fridge, then fed it to some pigs ...a la Amaral and a la Cristavao.  Both Criminals



By the way are you HardlLineMarxist?  Did I have coffee with you at Bennetts trial?

[Redblossom]

Sadie, I must admit I have no idea how you make such enormous mental leaps, for example, my suggesting, and it was not with any negative connotation, that the time was about right when the Carpenters left the restaraunt for them to possibly be in the vicinity when either Gerry Mccann, Jeremy Wilkins, Matt Oldfield and Russell O'Brien were there and one of them may have mentioned Madeleine's name. It was an 'idea' not an accusation of anything.

As for your comment  'Surely you are not still pounding at the fact that Gerry or Matt had killed Madeleine'

I have never pounded this, let alone 'still' pounding it, so you must have got me mixed up with someone else.

As for your ridiculous other leap of imagination  that I will soon be saying they cut up a body, well it is for you to think about why you said that, it's nothing to do with me.
 

PS If Mrs Carpenter heard this, and it was a vague memory, perhaps she heard it on another night instead. There is anecdotal evidence that she was being chased after by her parents around the flats one night. And IIRC Gerry Mccann did say something about the kids running round the alleys one night.

Also if you get a second, perhaps you can tell me why any abductor would be calling out Madeleine's name, I am curious.




 

[DCI]

So this chap heard about the abduction at around 10.15, from MW staff.

Witness Statement

Date: 2007-05-16

Paul Raymond Wright

Occupation: Hotel Owner

Place of Work: "Duque de Holanda" Bar, P da L


He comes to the process as a witness. He does not speak Portuguese and is helped by an interpreter.

He has lived in P da L for 25 years.

He heard about the events being investigated, on the night of 3rd May at about 22.15, from a Mark Warner employee, who went to his restaurant to say that Madeleine had disappeared and to ask for help in looking for her


He arrived at the scene of the events at about 23.45, there were already many people and police officers.

When asked, he says that he knows Robert Murat by sight, for almost eight or ten years.
He did not see Murat on the scene on the night of the events - but remembers seeing him on different occasions.

Nothing more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs

[sadie]

Matt was the Mccanns best friend IIRC and he and his family had the next apartment.

Seems he left his apartment via the back, a few steps along that alleyway, around the corner and up 5A steps.  In thru the patio door.  I am not sure about this but I think it showed him coming from the alleyway on the Cutting Edge Youtube video

PLs correct me if I am wrong.

Hope this helps

[Redblossom]

The Oldfields were not the closest friends of thr Mccans, the Paynes were.

Matt did NOT go to the Mccanns apartment via the back of his flat via his patio door as he and his wife testified they left their back doors locked all the time

Quote
 After leaving his apartment he went to that of ROB who opted to stay there to calm his daughter who was crying, that done with the deponent went alone to the McCann apartment. He clarifies that ROB's daughter was ill, with vomiting.

To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be.
Unquote