Author Topic: Russia - Ukraine war  (Read 49113 times)

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Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #120 on: March 13, 2022, 03:24:20 PM »
Do I really need to spell it out?  They deter being nuked of course.

What as/is deterring strikes against countries which don't have this deterrent, ie the rest of the eu at least.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2022, 03:26:33 PM »
And what was Trump saying to the EU & NATO.

You need to up your spending, you need to stop being reliant on foreign energy.

Germany laughed during his speech at the world economic forum.

The germens are quiet now.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #122 on: March 13, 2022, 03:28:34 PM »
What as/is deterring strikes against countries which don't have this deterrent, ie the rest of the eu at least.
It might help if you read up on what NATO is and how it works for the countries that are signed up to it.   
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2022, 03:34:32 PM »
It might help if you read up on what NATO is and how it works for the countries that are signed up to it.   

For those in Europe that haven't , how many attacks have they received ?
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2022, 03:48:53 PM »
Should Russia decide Moldovia next where is the middle ground in this appeasement or diplomatic solution , there is none imo, its nuclear with publicised and strategic strikes  or all out war with Russia , or Russia is left to do what it wants in that region.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2022, 03:59:17 PM »
For those in Europe that haven't , how many attacks have they received ?
you didn’t take my advice did you?
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50068.htm
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2022, 04:21:31 PM »
The germens are quiet now.

Thousands are marching in protest in Berlin today.
I bet Putin is really scared.
These are the same pricks who would continue to vote for wooly liberal leaders.
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Offline barrier

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2022, 06:08:56 PM »
Thousands are marching in protest in Berlin today.
I bet Putin is really scared.

These are the same pricks who would continue to vote for wooly liberal leaders.

Germans marching ought scare him.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2022, 06:33:50 PM »
Germans marching ought scare him.

These are post WW2 Germans, shamed by their history into being vehemently opposed to conflict, whilst paradoxically belonging to a continually expanding military alliance that threatens the sovereignty of a rival superpower.

You just couldn't make this shit up.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2022, 06:41:56 PM »
Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored

Thinking through the Ukraine crisis – the causes

“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.”

I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”.

What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.”

Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”

He was right, but US and Nato leaders proceeded with new rounds of expansion, including the provocative step of adding the three Baltic republics. Those countries not only had been part of the Soviet Union, but they had also been part of Russia’s empire during the Czarist era. That wave of expansion now had Nato perched on the border of the Russian Federation.

Moscow’s patience with Nato’s ever more intrusive behavior was wearing thin. The last reasonably friendly warning from Russia that the alliance needed to back off came in March 2007, when Putin addressed the annual Munich security conference. “Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?”

In his memoir, Duty, Robert M Gates, who served as secretary of defense in the administrations of both George W Bush and Barack Obama, stated his belief that “the relationship with Russia had been badly mismanaged after [George HW] Bush left office in 1993”. Among other missteps, “US agreements with the Romanian and Bulgarian governments to rotate troops through bases in those countries was a needless provocation.” In an implicit rebuke to the younger Bush, Gates asserted that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into Nato was truly overreaching”. That move, he contended, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests”.


The following year, the Kremlin demonstrated that its discontent with Nato’s continuing incursions into Russia’s security zone had moved beyond verbal objections. Moscow exploited a foolish provocation by Georgia’s pro‐​western government to launch a military offensive that brought Russian troops to the outskirts of the capital. Thereafter, Russia permanently detached two secessionist‐​minded Georgian regions and put them under effective Russian control.

Western (especially US) leaders continued to blow through red warning light after a red warning light, however. The Obama administration’s shockingly arrogant meddling in Ukraine’s internal political affairs in 2013 and 2014 to help demonstrators overthrow Ukraine’s elected, pro‐​Russia president was the single most brazen provocation, and it caused tensions to spike. Moscow immediately responded by seizing and annexing Crimea, and a new cold war was underway with a vengeance.

Could the Ukraine crisis have been avoided?

Events during the past few months constituted the last chance to avoid a hot war in eastern Europe. Putin demanded that Nato provide guarantees on several security issues. Specifically, the Kremlin wanted binding assurances that the alliance would reduce the scope of its growing military presence in eastern Europe and would never offer membership to Ukraine. He backed up those demands with a massive military buildup on Ukraine’s borders.

The Biden administration’s response to Russia’s quest for meaningful western concessions and security guarantees was tepid and evasive. Putin then clearly decided to escalate matters. Washington’s attempt to make Ukraine a Nato political and military pawn (even absent the country’s formal membership in the alliance) may end up costing the Ukrainian people dearly.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2022, 08:52:13 PM »
US officials say Russia has asked China for military help in Ukraine

White House fears move is sign of increasingly close ties between Beijing and Moscow

US officials told the Financial Times that Russia had requested military equipment and other assistance since the start of the invasion. They declined to give details about what Russia had requested.

Another person familiar with the situation said the US was preparing to warn its allies, amid some indications that China may be preparing to help Russia. Other US officials have said there were signs that Russia was running out of some kinds of weaponry as the war in Ukraine extends into its third week.

The White House did not comment. The Chinese embassy in Washington did not respond to a request for a comment.

The revelation comes as Jake Sullivan, US national security adviser, heads to Rome for talks on Monday with Yang Jiechi, China’s top foreign policy official.

Before leaving Washington on Sunday, Sullivan warned China not to try to “bail out” Russia by helping Moscow to circumvent the sanctions that the US and its allies have imposed on President Vladimir Putin and his regime.

“We will ensure that neither China, nor anyone else, can compensate Russia for these losses,” Sullivan told NBC television on Sunday. “In terms of the specific means of doing that, again, I’m not going to lay all of that out in public, but we will communicate that privately to China, as we have already done and will continue to do.”

The apparent request for equipment and other kinds of unspecified military assistance comes as the Russian military struggles to make as much progress in Ukraine as western intelligence believe they expected.

It also raises fresh questions about the China-Russia relationship, which has grown increasingly strong as both countries express their opposition to the US over everything from Nato to sanctions.

China has portrayed itself as a neutral actor in the Ukraine crisis and has refused to condemn Russia for invading the country. The US has also seen no sign that Chinese president Xi Jinping is willing to put any pressure on Putin.

The two leaders signed a joint statement in Beijing last month describing the Beijing-Moscow partnership as having “no limits”, in another sign that the two capitals were drawing even closer together.

https://www.ft.com/content/30850470-8c8c-4b53-aa39-01497064a7b7
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2022, 08:57:28 PM »
We've had harsh sanctions for years attempting to restrict Chinese growth, been trying to promote liberal democracy in Hong Kong, much to their ire, & have them encircled around the South China Sea.


Here it comes.

Will China be receptive to aggressive U.S demands (bearing in mind all of the above) or might it seize this opportunity to deliver crushing blows to the U.S hegemony? (Which is bankrupt to the tune of 28 Trillion Dollars)
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2022, 09:18:58 PM »

Every western country is mired in debt & have massive budgets to accommodate each year.

China are the country that has the money these days, & Russia has a relatively low debt & a huge expanse of resources, so plenty of collateral.

What have we got in the west these days?

We've still got our nukes I suppose.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #133 on: March 13, 2022, 09:26:20 PM »

Nukes, & an arrogant overwhelming sense of authority & entitlement.

The rest of the world hates us, can't say I blame them.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Russia - Ukraine war
« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2022, 10:03:30 PM »

“The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, and the end result is that Ukraine is going to be wrecked.” — John J. Mearsheimer 2015

The devastation now befalling Ukraine didn’t have to happen, and the fact that it did is the fault of the West generally and of the United States particularly.

That is the view of John Mearsheimer, perhaps the preeminent academic proponent of the “realist school” of international relations.

A seventy-four-year old professor at the University of Chicago, Mearsheimer has suddenly become the most talked about critic of the American foreign policy of the post-Cold War era. He is the author of six books and numerous articles in leading journals of his field. Two of the books elaborate on the importance of a lead role for the realist position in foreign affairs: The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (2001, 2014) and The Great Delusion: Liberal Dreams and International Realities (2018).


Liberalism and Realism

Realists such as Mearsheimer are a minority among political scientists who specialize in international relations. The field is dominated by an approach variously called “liberalism”, “liberal internationalism” or, at times, “Wilsonianism”. This mainstream view stresses the desirability of American national and allied international structures to foster liberal values abroad, such as the universal rights of individuals, the rule of law, free trade, popular sovereignty and democratic electoral politics. Liberal internationalists are keen to see democracy spread globally, since it is an article of their faith that liberal democracies do not war with each other, thus bringing a “peace dividend.”

Realism, according to political scientist Robert D. Kaplan, is “more a sensibility than a guide to action in each and every crisis.” Realists believe in the following:

Order comes before freedom

Work with the material at hand

Think tragically to avoid tragedy

Not every problem has a solution

Interests come before values

American power is limited

Passion and good policy often don’t go together

Realists are seen by many to be cynical and reluctant to intervene when human rights are being violated abroad. Realists maintain that they tell hard truths about international politics that most people (and especially many Americans) do not want to hear. As can be seen in the list above, realism is rooted in a more pessimistic view of human behavior that few find well-fitted to the American spirit.


The lament

What is Mearsheimer’s “lament” and what does it have to do with Ukraine?

Mearsheimer’s critique begins with the end of the Cold War, when the Soviet Union broke apart and the structure of international power went from “bi-polar” to ”unipolar”, with the United States the sole superpower. Mearsheimer’s realist bent tells him that world politics are anarchic, that there is no “night watchman” or superior power above the nation-state to keep order. Furthermore, the uncertainty about the intentions of other nations sows fear among the “actors” (primarily nation-states). This fear forces each nation to seek as much power as possible and overwhelming power, or “hegemony”, in one’s region. The global system’s regulating mechanism is the “balance of power” wherein each state tries, by shifting alliances, to prevent any one state from domination of any of the major areas of contention: Europe, Eurasia, or the Western Hemisphere.

During the forty year Cold War between the West and the Soviet Union, a bipolar equilibrium became the status quo. Neither side could prevail against the other. Both sides had nuclear weapons. Mutual assured destruction (MAD) kept the two superpowers from direct confrontation, so proxy wars were fought in the “Third World”. But, suddenly (in historic terms), the United States was unopposed atop world power rankings, going from being a status quo power to a revisionist power.

I recall well the euphoria and relief of that time, when “the end of history” was nigh, democracy was on the march and a “new world order” was being born. The older, nineteenth-century balance of power mechanism was thought to be now outmoded. 2 By 1991, Russian power was substantially reduced and China not yet a peer rival. Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin, having just resigned from the KGB, was starting his career in politics in his home city of St. Petersburg (the former Leningrad).

In Mearsheimer’s estimation, this shift in the basic structure of world politics presented a dangerous temptation for the only hegemon, the United States. He termed this temptation “aggressive liberalism”. With no peer power to constrain it, American power was free to be guided by the impulse to propagate liberal values in many places—even by force, if necessary.

The result was that American military power went abroad “seeking monsters to destroy” 3 in Libya, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. The phrase “necessity of regime change” was heard often, but American foreign policy managers in time learned an older phrase: “you break it, you own it.” That is, none of these forays turned out positively, on balance, and all of them created power vacuums into which flowed forces antithetical to liberal values.

This is the heart of Mearsheimer’s lament, that unipolarism led the United States to crusades untethered from realist constraints. In Putin’s view, these crusades were evidence of the bitter fruits of unipolarism for the Russian nation, which stood silent and humiliated.


NATO moves East

As the Warsaw Pact was breaking up, Soviet leaders were fearful that NATO would take the place of Russian power in her former client states. According to newly declassified documents, in 1990-1991, Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev was repeatedly given assurances by several Western leaders that if the USSR would stand aside and allow the reunification of Germany, NATO would not move “one inch” east of the reunited German state. U.S. Secretary of State James Baker said this directly to Gorbachev on several occasions. Top diplomats from Germany and the United Kingdom also gave such assurances.4

This agreement held until 1999, when the Clinton administration reneged and NATO admitted the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland. In 2004, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia entered, followed later by Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia. Both Russian Federation President Boris Yeltsin and then President Putin complained loudly about both the 1999 and 2004 tranches, but Russia was too weakened internally to do much about it.

The admission of the Baltic states especially rankled Putin, since they were the first former Soviet Socialist Republics to join NATO, thereby potentially putting NATO military units on the border of the Russian Federation. Putin has cited the breaking of the“promises” made by Western leaders not to expand NATO into Russia’s “near abroad” as evidence of what he sees as the arrogance of the unipolar hegemon, the United States and her European subordinate client states.

The so-called “color revolutions” following the demise of the USSR—especially the “rose” Revolution in Georgia (2003) and the “Orange Revolution in Ukraine (2004-5)—were undoubtedly seen by Putin as harbingers of his own fate in Russia. A key event in the narrative leading up to the invasion of Ukraine this month was the 20th NATO summit meeting in Bucharest, Romania (April 2-4, 2008). In the final report, it was stated that both Georgia and Ukraine would be in NATO at a future date. Four months later, Russia launched a “peace enforcement” operation in Georgia.


Putin’s lament


In a famous speech given on September 25, 2015, Mearsheimer said that if Putin were to voice his overall demand to the West, it would sound something like this: “You (the West, led by the United States) must stop trying to peel Ukraine away from Russia. If you don’t, I will wreck it before I see it become part of your bloc.”5 But an ongoing debate about Russia-Ukraine asks “is Russia really threatened by NATO or is Putin claiming it is to cover (a) his own failures to build a prosperous Russia or (b) his imperial designs over the former Soviet space?”

One of the principles of realist theory is brought to bear here. All nations have geo-strategic interests that are more or less fixed. In the anarchic world of power competition between nations, it is imperative to know what your opponent’s interests are, and particularly important to know what their vital interests are—that is, the interests for which they are willing to fight. Nations do not respond well to an opponent who says “we do not accept that this is a vital interest of yours.”

Some posit that Ukraine is a sovereign state, free to join any alliance that suits them. This is de jure true, a legal claim derived from the principle of self-determination. But sovereign rights are always de facto constrained by the power to effect them in the real world. For example, Finland has not exercised her de jure sovereign right to an independent foreign policy since 1941, yet she is a stable, prosperous country. Cuba could not exercise her sovereign right to house nuclear weapons on her territory in 1962. If a nation hostile to the United States were to enter into an military alliance with Canada or Mexico, the vital interests of America, buttressed by her power, would override either nation’s sovereign right to do so.


Putin’s claims


The multiple invasions of Russia via the North German Plain—through Poland and Ukraine and then into the heartland of Russia proper—is “Russian Fear of the West” 101. This history alone is sufficient to warrant Russian insecurity vis-a-vis the politics of the table-top flat territory of Ukraine. This fear is built into Russia’s geography and national consciousness, Putin or no Putin, according to Mearsheimer’s theory.

But we do have the man Putin in charge. Is he just inventing the threat from the West for his own ends? True, Putin may indeed be expressing legitimate historical fears and also calculating that his personal fate and that of his regime depend on his diverting attention from domestic political-economic weaknesses. But he has been complaining about NATO’s encroachment since day one of his rule, the first eight years of which saw a sizable increase in the Russian standard of living and sky-high personal popularity. So he was concerned about NATO’s movement eastward even when things were going well for him. That fact would support Mearsheimer’s realist belief that geostrategic structural conditions, not individual leaders, control.

It must also be noted that the United States is the most secure nation in the history of the modern era. With two vast oceans east and west and weaker, friendly nations on our northern and southern borders, we are not, by experience, scarred by the fears and memories of constant threats to our well-being. This benign history can induce us to discount the claimed vital interests of others.

What would Mearsheimer do now about the status of Ukraine? Fundamentally, he believes that Ukraine must be removed from the Russia-NATO confrontation. He would prescribe that Ukraine return to a neutral position, not in NATO but built up economically. That prescription is out of date now, since the existence of any kind of sovereignty for Ukraine is questionable. Mearsheimer’s critique is still useful in an analysis of how we got to this point, and the lessons derivable from that. (He may have more robust opinions about the immediate future for Ukraine that I am not aware of at this writing.)


The Realist Creed ignored



Mearsheimer clearly states that we have drifted into this mess because of insufficient attention to four of the principles of realism listed above.

The first is “work with what you have.” In this case, “what we have” is a newly sovereign state whose geography puts her inside the vital defensive perimeter of a great power. What we have is a former Soviet civilization, lacking the socio-political-cultural dispositions upon which a democracy is built. Nepotism and many other forms of corruption are still problems.Yes, at least some of her people aspire to be “Western”, but these things take time to develop.

Secondly, “think tragically to avoid tragedy.” Obviously, the ultimate tragedy has come. Were we ignoring the odds against our policies? Did we, with the best of intentions, do what Mearsheimer said we did, and lead Ukraine down the primrose path?

Third, American power is limited.” Yes, we can sanction the aggressor after the fact. But even if it’s successful, what cold comfort would it be to the millions of stateless, displaced, injured, or killed Ukrainians? Bluntly put, the fate of Ukraine is of vital national interest of Russia, but not of the European Union or the United States.

And lastly, “passion and good policy often do not go together.” It is hard not to be passionate about a people under the gun, desiring something other than the life they were born into. This is where critics of realism lay on a bitter accusation of heartlessness and abandonment.


But could Ukraine ever be a stable, successful state neutral in foreign policy between Russia and the West? Mearsheimer seems to think so, but I have my doubts. I do not think Putin (or any leader of the Russian Federation possible under present conditions) could risk a democratic, prosperous Ukraine because economic ties with the West would fan her aspirations for cultural, social, and finally, political affinity. If that happened, it would expose the kleptocratic-autocratic conditions in Russia that would be unfavorably compared to life “next door”, where so many Russians visit and have relatives.


Hard lessons

What can we learn? We can remind ourselves that wars are major scramblers of order across the board, and that realists favor the order that a balance of power brings. Socially, economically, culturally, politically and even psychologically, things change for the combatants as well as for the non-combatants, and new problems rush into the vacuums.

Belarus is now closer to being an integrated part of Russia than she has been. This changes things for Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia, since Putin has said he will not be removing Russian armed forces from Belarus. Russian air and army units will now be directly on the borders of those countries.

NATO also faces new questions: Will Putin be satisfied with neutralizing Ukraine? Will he move on Moldova, or resume hybrid war tactics in the Baltic States? Will there be an ongoing insurrection in Ukraine?

The European Union, and especially Germany, may have to reorient their system-wide energy policies. The global economy will be disrupted, and for an unknowable period. And on and on.



Enter the blame game and a lesson relearned



In the coming debates about the Ukrainian invasion, we’ll surely hear from both the liberal internationalist and realist schools.

One side will say that the West caused the war by not including Ukraine in NATO in 2008, the West should have better armed the Ukrainians years ago, and should establish a “no-fly” zone in Ukrainian airspace even now. Realists such as Mearsheimer will remind us to think in balance of power terms, what he calls “nineteenth-century man” modes, and eschew “twenty-first century” contemporary globalist-liberalism, “new world order” assumptions. The rise of China to a peer position has already put an end to the unipolar temptations of American global hegemony.

Finally, to the degree to which the West, led by the United States, bears responsibility for the carnage and rubble that has been visited on Ukraine (and clearly, there is some), we should relearn that while all nations must, to some degree, fashion their foreign policies to reflect their deepest felt values, the harder, darker constraints of an anarchic and contentious world must always be the bedrock of our striving beyond our shores.

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2022/03/09/mearsheimers-lament-u-s-responsibility-and-the-tragedy-of-ukraine/



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