Author Topic: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?  (Read 71205 times)

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Offline sadie

Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2013, 06:55:16 PM »
...  and whatever Eddie, the cadaver dog alerted to in the McCann's wardrobe,  it wasn't Paul Gordon's blood  ...  if it had been,  Keela, the blood dog would have alerted too  (  she didn't )
Was Keela shown the wardrobe?

She wasn't just shown it,  she thoroughly explored it. First the base,  then she jumped up onto the first shelf,  and was finally lifted onto the second shelf 

There was no blood in that wardrobe  ...  not Paul Gordon's ...  or anyone else's

Whatever Eddie alerted to there,  it was not blood
So were both dogs shown the wardrobe Icabod?

ETA Did both dogs react?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2013, 07:07:09 PM »
...  and whatever Eddie, the cadaver dog alerted to in the McCann's wardrobe,  it wasn't Paul Gordon's blood  ...  if it had been,  Keela, the blood dog would have alerted too  (  she didn't )
Was Keela shown the wardrobe?

She wasn't just shown it,  she thoroughly explored it. First the base,  then she jumped up onto the first shelf,  and was finally lifted onto the second shelf 

There was no blood in that wardrobe  ...  not Paul Gordon's ...  or anyone else's

Whatever Eddie alerted to there,  it was not blood
So were both dogs shown the wardrobe Icabod?

ETA Did both dogs react?

No,  just Eddie, sadie

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2013, 07:12:33 PM »
Oh! Well mistakes do happen. Well spotted, never seen that before. I know the boot of the car was not mentioned in the final PJ report as being alerted to by Eddie. But it doesnt matter does it? As if he had alerted inside the car, the fact that Keela also did would not suggest anything much.

Eddie alerts to a general dissipated scent that has attached itself to areas and objects way past the originating spot, unlike Keela who alerts to a very specific spot where physical evidence lies.

Also the fact that Eddie alerted to something coming out of the door seal, that he alerted to the key card separately and that Keela also alerted to that and in the boot, doesn't necessarily mean that he was not alerting to cadaver odour as well.


ETA, that was to Carana.

Eddie alerts to any general dissipated scent of cadaver or BLOOD.

Eddie alerting and Keela alerting does not increase the knowledge that is produced by those alerts other than that blood id present. Cadaver odor remains undetermined from before to after the alerts

See my post on logic and apples and oranges.

If the scent of dried blood dissipates, why does Keela pinpoint very specific places? cadaver scent is no where near the same. it is made of hundreds of chemicals unlike blood and said chemicals rise up, are moved and merge with porous surfaces. That is why Eddie can only pinpoint a very general area.

And no I disagree with your idea that Eddie and Keela alerting to a similar area must mean Eddie is alerting to blood. you cannot know that.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »
Oh! Well mistakes do happen. Well spotted, never seen that before. I know the boot of the car was not mentioned in the final PJ report as being alerted to by Eddie. But it doesnt matter does it? As if he had alerted inside the car, the fact that Keela also did would not suggest anything much.

Eddie alerts to a general dissipated scent that has attached itself to areas and objects way past the originating spot, unlike Keela who alerts to a very specific spot where physical evidence lies.

Also the fact that Eddie alerted to something coming out of the door seal, that he alerted to the key card separately and that Keela also alerted to that and in the boot, doesn't necessarily mean that he was not alerting to cadaver odour as well.


ETA, that was to Carana.

Eddie alerts to any general dissipated scent of cadaver or BLOOD.

Eddie alerting and Keela alerting does not increase the knowledge that is produced by those alerts other than that blood id present. Cadaver odor remains undetermined from before to after the alerts

See my post on logic and apples and oranges.

If the scent of dried blood dissipates, why does Keela pinpoint very specific places? cadaver scent is no where near the same. it is made of hundreds of chemicals unlike blood and said chemicals rise up, are moved and merge with porous surfaces. That is why Eddie can only pinpoint a very general area.

And no I disagree with your idea that Eddie and Keela alerting to a similar area must mean Eddie is alerting to blood. you cannot know that.

Wrong way round.

You start not knowing if there is a ossibility of cadaver odor.
Eddie Alerts- meaning cadaver odor or blood- still no indication of cadaver odor alone.

If Keela alerts as well then this adds nothing- still cadaver odor or blood- no indication of cadaver odor alone.

BUT

If Keela does not alert, then that means no blood. We now have additional information- Eddie's alert was possibky to cadaver odor.

Only the joint alert/no alert identifies cadaver odor.

See my thread on apples and oranges.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2013, 07:35:25 PM »
That might be the case on actual operations, but not the case in training and testing, when its *known* the source is cadaver odour

qualifier to statement that eddies alert can NEVER be taken as indication of cadaver odour
 8(>((



ETA, not sure when keela was actually deployed, and I didnt onow Mark Harrison was her trainer either

http://web.archive.org/web/20060928071034/http://www.southyorks.police.uk/kidzone/dogdiary/index.php

keelas diary
 @)(++(*

« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 07:45:17 PM by Redblossom »

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2013, 07:37:03 PM »

The original PT is here:




When re translated into English...


We examined the cars with the dog and the only reaction we got was in relation to the car in the extreme corner. I will indicate that it was the Renault. What we have is a reaction to this door here, where (the dog) lifts its head in the air and sniffs for the objects which it has been trained to detect. And when we limit our movements, the dog chooses this car, this door. It is important to know that the dog chooses the odour that comes from the lower part of the door. Based on this information, I will try to place the dog inside the car.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It doesn't seem that TdeA at least had noticed that it wasn't Eddie in the boot, but Keela.
Hi carana !
"I will try" doesn't mean "tenciono" (I intend to).

Offline Lace

Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2013, 07:41:17 PM »
Can I ask what Eddie did before he was an  'enhanced' victim rescue dog.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2013, 07:43:26 PM »
Can I ask what Eddie did before he was an  'enhanced' victim rescue dog.

He was a victim resue dog

Before that he was a dog

Before that he was a puppy!

Enhanced Victim Rescue/Recovery Dog is a pretendy title made up by Mr Grime.


Offline Lace

Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2013, 07:45:13 PM »
A victim rescue dog would search for dead or living people would'nt it?

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2013, 07:47:30 PM »
Isn't victim recovery different from victim rescue? eddie is/was a victim recovery dog, which means finding dead bodies

Offline Lace

Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2013, 07:50:11 PM »
So why the 'enhanced' ?

debunker

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »
So why the 'enhanced' ?

Public Relations?

What he means is that a victim recovery dog finds bodies and such in the terrain or in ruined buildings. He claims that the enhancement allows trace scents to show that a cadaver has been in that place.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2013, 07:55:13 PM »
So why the 'enhanced' ?

Firstly Eddie was never a victim rescue dog but a cadaver dog, a victim recovery dog, ie trained to find dead people, the epithet of enhanced was used I thihk because he had extra training with real human dead bodies, and not just pig carcasses, pigs death scent being the closesf to human death scent, not sure why that is to behonest, but they use pig hearts dont they for transplants sometimes





AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2013, 07:55:38 PM »
The value of the dogs in the McCann case is very questionable.   Even if we were 100% certain that Eddie alerted to cadaverine, without a confirmed DNA match you cannot say it came from Madeleine McCann.  The dog only really had one unquestionable use and that was in finding corpses.  As has been pointed out at great length, Eddie's alerts were not indicative solely of a cadaver.
You're right and wrong, Angelo222. Alerts on residues (volatile molecules, no body cells) can't possibly be evidence since anyhow no DNA can be identified.
But you're wrong to think that dogs' alerts aren't "suggestive" as Benice suggested above. They open leads, productive or not.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: How many episodes of dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odor?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2013, 07:57:52 PM »
The value of the dogs in the McCann case is very questionable.   Even if we were 100% certain that Eddie alerted to cadaverine, without a confirmed DNA match you cannot say it came from Madeleine McCann.  The dog only really had one unquestionable use and that was in finding corpses.  As has been pointed out at great length, Eddie's alerts were not indicative solely of a cadaver.
You're right and wrong, Angelo222. Alerts on residues (volatile molecules, no body cells) can't possibly be evidence since anyhow no DNA can be identified.
But you're wrong to think that dogs' alerts aren't "suggestive" as Benice suggested above. They open leads, productive or not.

Many things are suggestive. Suggestive means not certain and only a possibility.

The dog alerts suggest possibilities but lack forensic back-up and are consequently not in any way conclusive.