The Portuguese Police thought the dogs were 100% accurate.

[Redblossom]

You are shooting the messenger.    Read the reports for yourself.   Or do you think you know the details of what happened better than those who compiled the reports.

The only people who libel Grime IMO are those who dispute his claims and insist that there must have been a body in 5A at some time.

Rubbish, do keep up, weve gone beyond that, ages ago but never mind....links for you in my edited post, cheers

[Benice]

Rubbish, do keep up, weve gone beyond that, ages ago but never mind....links for you in my edited post, cheers

I take it you haven't read the reports then.

[John]

If what Ricardo Paiva (Portuguese police liaison officer) said to Kate McCann is to be believed, the PJ were convinced that Eddie and Keela were 100% successful.  How does anyone know they were successful as failures are seldom if ever identified.

If you want an example of a well known failure look no further than the Kate Prout case where the dogs failed miserably to discover where she was buried even when taken to the area. Only when a specific area was excavated was her remains found.  Had her killer not cooperated with the police and taken them to the pheasant pens, her remains would have remained undiscovered.

[AnneGuedes]

I suppose it all depends on whether you are religious or not.   

All religions appear to be full of 'dreams' and 'visions - all taken very seriously by their followers.

In times of trouble people do turn to religion in my experience, although I've never heard of a 'dream' causing a pivotal change in the direction of a police enquiry - but that is apparently what happened in the McCann case according to Ricardo Paivo(sp?).       A notably unprofessional approach to be taken by any policeman IMO.

OOps sorry - off topic.

Off topic and off veracity... RP never said that, he interpreted not the dream but the fact the dream was told to him as a resignation that Madeleine could be dead.
The turn in the investigation was very well perceived by Mrs McCann ("Madeleine") and it was mainly due to Eddie's alert in 5A.

[Benice]

Off topic and off veracity... RP never said that, he interpreted not the dream but the fact the dream was told to him as a resignation that Madeleine could be dead.
The turn in the investigation was very well perceived by Mrs McCann ("Madeleine") and it was mainly due to Eddie's alert in 5A.

Quote from the Telegraph.   
By Fiona Govan in Lisbon
7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.

He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.

The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.

“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

Related Articles
Kate McCann: legal battle is 'right thing'
14 Jan 2010

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

[AnneGuedes]

If what Ricardo Paiva (Portuguese police liaison officer) said to Kate McCann is to be believed, the PJ were convinced that Eddie and Keela were 100% successful.  How does anyone know they were successful as failures are seldom if ever identified.

If you want an example of a well known failure look no further than the Kate Prout case where the dogs failed miserably to discover where she was buried even when taken to the area. Only when a specific area was excavated was her remains found.  Had her killer not cooperated with the police and taken them to the pheasant pens, her remains would have remained undiscovered.

"100% successful" has its limits : without remains there's no way to identify from whom come the VOCs.
In the Dickens case (2010)  cadaver dogs' evidence of VOCs (no body was found) was admitted by the judge and the mother convicted. She later confessed.
In the Lane case (2012) cadaver dog Morse's evidence of VOCs (no body was found) was admitted by the judge and the father was convicted. No confession.
In the Parker case (2009) the cadaver dogs' evidence was rejected by the judge following the request of the defence, but the husband was sentenced to life. The body was found one year later.
In the Caylee Anthony Case (2008) – the cadaver dogs' evidence (VOCs) was admitted and corroborated the analysis of the car boot. The mother was charged for murder but found not guilty though, meanwhile, the body was found.
In the Montana Case, the victim disappeared in 1990. In 2007 3 independent cadaver dogs alerted on VOCs. The husband was charged in 2008, convicted and sentenced to life. the body was never found.

[Lyall]

Quote from the Telegraph.   
By Fiona Govan in Lisbon
7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.

He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.

The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.

“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

Related Articles
Kate McCann: legal battle is 'right thing'
14 Jan 2010

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

Why is it unprofessional, Benice?

The police would I expect have been in regular contact with psychologists, and contact like this from the child's parents had to be taken seriously.

[John]

In the final analysis nothing was ever found by the dogs which could be proven to derive from a cadaver.  No remains of any sort were ever identified.  All the samples came back as inconclusive as far as any DNA link to Madeleine was concerned.

So there you have it, a bunch of false positives.

Lets not exaggerate or elevate the evidence of the dog handler in any murder trial where a body has never been found.  The handler's evidence can never stand alone and no-one has ever been convicted on that basis.  The convictions to which Anne refers in her posts were dependent on other mitigating factors.

[pathfinder73]

What's the truth on the 15 out of 19 DNA match found in the boot.

"Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match." (John Lowe - not the darts player I hope)

What does a chance match mean? How does that work?

[Lyall]

In the final analysis nothing was ever found by the dogs which could be proven to derive from a cadaver.  No remains of any sort were ever identified.  All the samples came back as inconclusive as far as any DNA link to Madeleine was concerned.

So there you have it, a bunch of false positives.

It's not that simple, John. What remains would there have been in the first place? If there was a body, it wasn't there very long.

[AnneGuedes]

Quote from the Telegraph.   
By Fiona Govan in Lisbon
7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.

He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.

The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.

“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

Related Articles
Kate McCann: legal battle is 'right thing'
14 Jan 2010

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

I heard him when he took the stand, Benice, on the 12th of January 2010.
You'll admit that telling a dream to a police officer is rather unexpected (eventually you tell your dreams to a psychologist, but usually you're the best person to interpret them correctly).
As a police officer RP reflected on the reason why Mrs McCann called him on the phone to tell him a dream. What did she try to say without saying it directly ? Why was she crying saying Madeleine was on a hill ? He understood (he might have been wrong) that Mrs McCann was contemplating the possibility that Madeleine was dead. This would of course change and facilitate the relations with the police.
Not the orientation of the investigation. It had already changed :
On that same day 23rd of July, the PJ, the LC (Neil Holden) and Prof Harrison had a meeting in Portimao. MH, who had arrived two days before, presented his first report,  contemplating the possibility that Madeleine was killed and her body concealed. On that same day Prof Harrison recommended to call for Mr Grime's dogs.

[Benice]

If what Ricardo Paiva (Portuguese police liaison officer) said to Kate McCann is to be believed, the PJ were convinced that Eddie and Keela were 100% successful.

 How does anyone know they were successful as failures are seldom if ever identified.

If you want an example of a well known failure look no further than the Kate Prout case where the dogs failed miserably to discover where she was buried even when taken to the area. Only when a specific area was excavated was her remains found.  Had her killer not cooperated with the police and taken them to the pheasant pens, her remains would have remained undiscovered.

How true.  Unless evidence was found at some later date, no dog handler could possibly know if their dog had failed to alert because they had not located a scent  - rather than assume there was no scent to be located.    They had no way of checking which was the correct reason.     

IMO it is because of this fact that no dog handler can ever claim a 100% success rate.   

[AnneGuedes]

It's not that simple, John. What remains would there have been in the first place? If there was a body, it wasn't there very long.

Everybody knew there were no remains of any origin in the 5A. But there were Volatile Organic Compounds...impalpable but extremely complex... and catchable in the STU-100 device (Scent Transfer Unit). Unfortunately the device arrived in Portimao too late.

[Benice]

I heard him when he took the stand, Benice, on the 12th of January 2010.
You'll admit that telling a dream to a police officer is rather unexpected (eventually you tell your dreams to a psychologist, but usually you're the best person to interpret them correctly).
As a police officer RP reflected on the reason why Mrs McCann called him on the phone to tell him a dream. What did she try to say without saying it directly ? Why was she crying saying Madeleine was on a hill ? He understood (he might have been wrong) that Mrs McCann was contemplating the possibility that Madeleine was dead. This would of course change and facilitate the relations with the police.
Not the orientation of the investigation. It had already changed :
On that same day 23rd of July, the PJ, the LC (Neil Holden) and Prof Harrison had a meeting in Portimao. MH, who had arrived two days before, presented his first report,  contemplating the possibility that Madeleine was killed and her body concealed. On that same day Prof Harrison recommended to call for Mr Grime's dogs.

The McCanns originally regarded Ricardo Paivo as a friend.  He was their Family Liaison officer.    She wasn't ringing a 'policeman' in her distress - she thought she was ringing a friend IMO.

There was no reason at all for that dream to be related to the court if the PJ thought it had no bearing on the case.   The reason given to the court was because it was regarded  -  as RP claimed  - to be a turning point in the investigation.    What other reason could there be for it to be mentioned in that court case? 

IMO for police officers to regard a dream as a valid reason to change direction in a case could not be more unprofessional.

[John]

What's the truth on the 15 out of 19 DNA match found in the boot.

"Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match." (John Lowe - not the darts player)

What does a chance match mean? How does that work?

Madeleine shared DNA with both her parents and her twin siblings.  Only a full profile match (currently 20 markers in the UK) could legally determine whom the DNA belonged to.  In the US and Canada I believe the threshold is much less.  I'm not sure where Portuguese Law stood on this in 2007 but as it was a new science at the time they must have agreed to be guided by UK standards.

To put this into context, you are much more likely to be convicted in America on the basis of DNA evidence than you are in the UK.  In the Jeremy Bamber case, the DNA obtained from a silencer returned a 17 marker match to one of the victims.  Under UK Law this was not considered proof of anything yet the probability of that DNA not belonging to that victim is many millions to one.  Thus one can see that the legal bar in the UK is set very high.