What do you think happened to Madeleine?

[Mrs. B]

Someone who has an experience of cadaver scent knows that dried blood doesn't smell the same.

Do you have a source for that assertion or is it just an opinion?

Not an opinion, just my experience. I've stayed in a flat where somebody died and, though now corpses receive very quickly a special treatment, I smelt death once in a while but for months. In my flat, where I've  been living for ages and where nobody died yet, where spots of blood have dried here and there before being cleaned (cleaning doesn't trick Keela), I've never smelt death.

Yes, that may be, but you are not a CSI dog nor a Cadaver dog I'm sure. A dog's sense of smell is very different from that of humans.

Oh you're sure I'm not a CSI nor an HRD !
Humans have much less receptors, but whoever smelt cadaver once always will detect it, in "human" quantity.

I can assure you that I meant no offence at all by my statement & I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were a dog & I'm sorry if you took it that way. But I still doubt very much that any human would be able to detect the smell of a dead body if that dead body had been removed from a crime scene within a short period after death.

[AnneGuedes]

I can never understand why the PJ refused the offer of the dogs earlier 

When please, DCI ?

May 2007, Anne.

Thank you, DCI, is it in the files ?

[Redblossom]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

No he didn't, he said if the EVRD dog alerted it might suggest that there may have been one and removed:

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.

[Mrs. B]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

There is one place where Grime expresses an opinion (that I don't think he had any business expressing) that Eddie might be alerting to a cadaver scent.

Harrison emphatically not.

Thanks, must have missed that - the only part I read was where he said "it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant." Which really could mean anything given that the dog is also known to alert to 2nd hand furniture from homes where original owners had died. But I'll go read through his statements again. 

[DCI]

I can never understand why the PJ refused the offer of the dogs earlier 

When please, DCI ?

May 2007, Anne.

Thank you, DCI, is it in the files ?

Its in the http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

Portuguese police turned down offer of dog help, 23 May 2007
 
Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.
 

[Mrs. B]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

No he didn't, he said if the EVRD dog alerted it might suggest that there may have been one and removed:

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.

(Oops - wrongly included in quote) Thanks, do you have a link to the relevant part in the files where this is stated? Much appreciated.

[AnneGuedes]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

There is one place where Grime expresses an opinion (that I don't think he had any business expressing) that Eddie might be alerting to a cadaver scent.

Harrison emphatically not.

Wasn't their job to deploy Eddie and observe ? As I said, obviously there was no residue of human nature in a flat which had been cleaned many times after the disappearance. So they weren't expecting to find any. Keela was the chance, if there was blood, to determine whose blood it was. But, imagine Keela had found Madeleine's blood, Eddie's alerts to death wouldn't have been evidence of her death, just presumption.

[Mo Stache]

If I had to place a large bet, I would place it on Maddie being killed in a fit of temper by Kate. Not deliberately killed but probably by having her head banged against a wall or similar. I believe Gerry knows exactly what happened and is 'standing by' his wife knowing she didn't mean to kill Maddie. I believe the Tapas bar saga is nothing more than an elaborate coverup.

The question was 'what do you think happened'; well that's my opinion. I hope I am wrong and Maddie is alive and well somewhere being cared for and loved.

As this is a 'Justice' forum and you are a senior member, perhaps you would share the logic and evidence that let's you reach that libellous conclusion.

The question was 'what do you THINK happened' to Madeliene.  I am perfectly entitled to express my opinion and there cannot possibly be anything libelous in that.

As for logic and evidence; my opinion is logical to me as I do not believe the McCanns and evidence is not a prerequisite to having an opinion.  You know damn well I don't have any evidence to prove what my opinion is just as you cannot prove my opinion is wrong!

I am of the opinion that you had something to do with the abduction of Madeleine because contrary to forensic reports you are still of the opinion that Madeleine's parents have something to do with her death. I don't have any evidence to prove what my opinion is, just as you cannot prove my opinion is wrong.

See it works both ways.

You're entitled to your opinion however infantile and wrong that may be! Wrong in as much as I can easily prove I was not in Portugal at the time thereby proving your opinion is wrong!

And you, as wrong about the McCann's involvement in as much as the Attorney General stated that they had committed no such crime as you accuse them of.
There is a fine line between having an opinion, for example: you are an arsehole (which does not breach any of your rights and is not based on fact) and using your right to have an opinion to state as fact, for example: "Maddie being killed in a fit of temper by Kate. Not deliberately killed but probably by having her head banged against a wall or similar. I believe Gerry knows exactly what happened and is 'standing by' his wife knowing she didn't mean to kill Maddie." which breaches the rights of others and which you can be held accountable for under British law. Ask Tony Bennett who refused to comply with an undertaking not to libel the McCann's and ended up with a contempt of court for continuing to do so. He also thought that stating his opinion while breaching the McCann's rights was not punishable by law.

[Redblossom]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

No he didn't, he said if the EVRD dog alerted it might suggest that there may have been one and removed:

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.

Thanks, do you have a link to the relevant part in the files where this is stated? Much appreciated.

That was from the files, they were not my words.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Scroll down just short of a quarter of the way down under the title, Mccanns Apartment

[registrar]

Thanks DCI:


'Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.'

Am I right in saying that the trail was lost splap bang in the car park of Batista's supermarket?

there's Occam's razor inflicting the cut

Woke and wandered and met with tragedy

Not out of the realm at all

[icabodcrane]

Thanks DCI:


'Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.'

Am I right in saying that the trail was lost splap bang in the car park of Batista's supermarket?

there's Occam's razor inflicting the cut

Woke and wandered and met with tragedy

Not out of the realm at all

But why would the window/shutters have been open in a woke and wandered scenario  ? 

[registrar]

Thanks DCI:


'Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.'

Am I right in saying that the trail was lost splap bang in the car park of Batista's supermarket?

there's Occam's razor inflicting the cut

Woke and wandered and met with tragedy

Not out of the realm at all

But why would the window/shutters have been open in a woke and wandered scenario  ?

I leave all speculation about windows, shutters and locking mechanisms to

Amaral

He made those the bedrock of his far flung theories

For which he now has landed himself in plenty of hot water

Ta muchly

[Mrs. B]

I wasn't aware that either Martin Grime or Harrison had ever categorically stated that there had been a cadaver in 5A, if so, I must have missed it. But I'll happily stand corrected if there are any reliable sources for this having happened.

No he didn't, he said if the EVRD dog alerted it might suggest that there may have been one and removed:

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.

Thanks, do you have a link to the relevant part in the files where this is stated? Much appreciated.

That was from the files, they were not my words.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Scroll down just short of a quarter of the way down under the title, Mccanns Apartment

  Found it! Many thanks.

[AnneGuedes]

Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.

Thanks, DCI, but hum hum, the Sun..
And the offered dogs were sniffers and they weren't useful since the GNR had good ones.
3 dogs followed the same trail. The fact they stopped after crossing FGM str. doesn't reveal insufficiency (those dogs participate regularly in international competitions), but reflects the dispersion of scents (wind, cars). Remarkably the same dogs, on the 8th (I think), followed the same route again : as explained by the handler, a very protected one (walls and not frequented).

[DCI]

Thanks DCI:


'Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.'

Am I right in saying that the trail was lost splap bang in the car park of Batista's supermarket?

there's Occam's razor inflicting the cut

Woke and wandered and met with tragedy

Not out of the realm at all

Thats news to me Registrar.

Two of the Portuguese dogs followed a scent, to block 6 car park, then nothing. Which I believe is in the direction, Jane Tanner saw the man walking. Don't know about Babtista's car park, or if there is a car park there.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm